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High speed rail Cork - Dublin

draiochtanois

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Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

The bus takes three hours, and is subject to traffic at Both ends of the journey where as the train takes 2:30 and is by all accounts a more comfortable journey

But doesn't serve the city centres and there's your half an hour time saving eaten up.

LeinsterDub

cgcsb wrote: »

Re: onward connections Cork's suburbs are hardly 'inaccessible' by public transport. Also you are incorrect on cost. Dublin-Cork €15 each way plus cork city bus journey €1.90 each way. That's about €33.80 round trip, which is impossible by car regardless of how efficient your engine is.

My car holds 5 at (basically) no extra cost 33.80 * 5 is 169 euro . At that's the cheapest fair! When I said hinterland I should of said more difficult instead of inaccessible

monument

LeinsterDub wrote: »

My car holds 5 at (basically) no extra cost 33.80 * 5 is 169 euro . At that's the cheapest fair! When I said hinterland I should of said more difficult as instead of inaccessible

Still not sure what your point is -- nobody, not a single poster is saying rail is better for every trip all the time.

Idbatterim

The fact that their is no longer a airline route between Cork and Dublin, clearly shows that their is little appetite for a high speed rail line. Pure fantasy stuff, there is simply no economic justification for it.

I think both airports are trying to get an operator to get this route going again, a pity that people from cork have to connect via london etc if they could have connected via Dublin and keeping the money here...

LeinsterDub

monument wrote: »

Still not sure what your point is -- nobody, not a single poster is saying rail is better for every trip all the time.

My points is the road is better for most trips , most of the time in Ireland .At least in my personal experience.

monument

LeinsterDub wrote: »

My points is the road is better for most trips , most of the time in Ireland .At least in my personal experience.

But we're not talking most trips, most of the time in Ireland. We're talking about Dublin-Cork and everything that goes with Belfast-Dublin-(Limerick)-Cork service.

bk wrote: »

High speed train to Cork, Haha!!!

Ireland is barely suited to having normal standard intercity rail, never mind high speed. Ireland pretty much couldn't be less suited to intercity rail:

- Really only one large city
- Small country, relatively short distances between cities
- Excellent motorway network

The reality is the population of Cork is barely big enough to justify intercity rail, never mind high speed rail.

At the moment the journey times are:
- Car 2h 20mins
- Train 2h 30mins
- Bus 3hours

Though in my experience the bus and train are about the same when you take into account the time it takes to get to and from Hueston. Car is actually significantly faster as it would be door to door.

If you want to add a quicker option to that, then it would be far cheaper for the government to spend a fraction of the €10 billion it would cost to build hs rail and instead subsidise a Cork to Dublin airplane route, along with a priority security lines at the airport. You would then have a 45 minute journey time option at a fraction of the cost.

With the remaining €9.5 Billion you could then build actually useful projects like Metro North and Dart Underground and probably even have some left over for an extra Luas line in Dublin and maybe a BRT or two down in Cork. All money far better spent.

The fact that their is no longer a airline route between Cork and Dublin, clearly shows that their is little appetite for a high speed rail line. Pure fantasy stuff, there is simply no economic justification for it.

1. The thread has gone beyond talking about the OP's suggestion.

2. The island should be looked at, not just Cork and Dublin.

3. I like the suggestion from Victor of not only including Belfast-Dublin-Cork but putting Limerick in there too.

4. Not sure why people can see road projects as a list of priorities but public transport is treated as if they all have to be built within the same few years.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

High speed train to Cork, Haha!!!

Ireland is barely suited to having normal standard intercity rail, never mind high speed. Ireland pretty much couldn't be less suited to intercity rail:

- Really only one large city
- Small country, relatively short distances between cities
- Excellent motorway network

The reality is the population of Cork is barely big enough to justify intercity rail, never mind high speed rail.

Uninformed drivel.

Austria, Denmark, Sweden etc. all serve similar population corridores with electrified railways in excess of 200km/hr running speeds. A City like Cork if locateed in on mainland Europe would have a comprehensive electrified commuter rail network.

bk wrote: »

At the moment the journey times are:
- Car 2h 20mins
- Train 2h 30mins
- Bus 3hours

The journey time between Dublin and Cork cannot be achieved within the law under 2h40mins, and that's 120km/h the whole way, with an express toll tag and you'd really want to be flooring it.

bk wrote: »

Though in my experience the bus and train are about the same when you take into account the time it takes to get to and from Hueston.

It takes 10 mins to get to Abbey St from Heuston.

bk wrote: »

If you want to add a quicker option to that, then it would be far cheaper for the government to spend a fraction of the €10 billion it would cost to build hs rail and instead subsidise a Cork to Dublin airplane route, along with a priority security lines at the airport. You would then have a 45 minute journey time option at a fraction of the cost.

Ridiculous, the subsidy to Dublin-Cork flights was stopped, it is an environmentally unsustainable transport solution. The Dublin-Cork line could be electrified and electric rolling stock bought when it comes time to renew the stock for only a billion extra. The 10bn figure would be more cuited to starting from scratch.

bk wrote: »

The fact that their is no longer a airline route between Cork and Dublin, clearly shows that their is little appetite for a high speed rail line. Pure fantasy stuff, there is simply no economic justification for it.

The air route was cancelled due to cancelled subsidy and by virtue of the fact that rail was faster.

cgcsb

LeinsterDub wrote: »

My car holds 5 at (basically) no extra cost 33.80 * 5 is 169 euro . At that's the cheapest fair! When I said hinterland I should of said more difficult instead of inaccessible

you can buy family tickets and group tickets at a discount.

monument wrote: »

But we're not talking most trips, most of the time in Ireland. We're talking about Dublin-Cork and everything that goes with Belfast-Dublin-(Limerick)-Cork service.

1. The thread has gone beyond talking about the OP's suggestion.

2. The island should be looked at, not just Cork and Dublin.

4. I like the suggestion from Victor of not only including Belfast-Dublin-Cork but putting Limerick in there too.

Even if you look at Cork - Dublin - Belfast and chuck in Limerick, it still doesn't make it any more financially viable.

Very few people go Cork to Belfast. The vast majority of journeys at Cork/Limerick/Belfast to/from Dublin. By adding Limerick/Belfast into the mix, all your are doing is increasing the km's and thus the cost of such a project. If Cork to Dublin isn't economically viable then Limerick/Belfast would be even less viable and adding them in just makes such a project even less viable and less likely to happen.

monument wrote: »

3. Not sure why people can see road projects as a list of priorities but public transport is treated as if they all have to be built within the same few years.

It isn't an anti-public transport sentiment, as you know I'm pro public transport (and cycling/walking) as anyone. However I'm also a realist and an engineer and I don't for a moment believe that every public transport project is a good idea or should be done. And I certainly don't believe that spending billions on hs intercity would be a good idea or makes any sense at all.

For €10 billion it would cost, you could do Metro North, Dart Underground, Luas to Lucan, expand Dublin Bikes to the rest of Dublin, build Dutch style bike lanes throughout Dublin and probably have enough left over for a couple hundred new intercity buses to serve various parts of the country.

All vastly more beneficial to public transport and the environment.

In my opinion the best thing to ever happen to intercity travel in Ireland is the introduction of frequent, direct non stop, cheap private bus services from the likes of Aircoach, Dublin Coach, Citylink, etc.

All of which cost the tax payer nothing to introduce. I believe people are far more likely to take public transport when it costs €20, then €80 for a normal train or €160 for a HS train. And yes a hs train would cost that, how else do people think you would fund a €10 billion project! Just look at hs ticket prices across Europe.

cgcsb wrote: »

Uninformed drivel.

I'll ignore the obvious trolling!

cgcsb wrote: »

Austria, Denmark, Sweden etc. all serve similar population corridores with electrified railways in excess of 200km/hr running speeds. A City like Cork if locateed in on mainland Europe would have a comprehensive electrified commuter rail network.

All are very mountainous and snowy countries where it is hard to build roads and they tend to be dangerous (snow) even when you do. Rail makes a lot of sense in these countries. Specially when you combine it with their almost free hydro electricity. The very cheap operating costs balanced out the high capital costs and made it less necessary for them to upgrade their roads.

Here our electricity is mostly from burning coal and gas and is one of the most expensive electricity rates in Europe. So it makes more sense for us to focus on roads, since the capital costs are relatively low and towns needed to be bypassed anyway.

cgcsb wrote: »

The journey time between Dublin and Cork cannot be achieved within the law under 2h40mins, and that's 120km/h the whole way, with an express toll tag and you'd really want to be flooring it.

And that's the difference between rail fans and normal people. Normal people don't care about the theory, what they can actually do is what they care about.

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, I can assure you that this is definitely possible. Also no one lives in a train station, the door to door speed of a car is at least 1 hour faster.

cgcsb wrote: »

It takes 10 mins to get to Abbey St from Heuston.

Then add time waiting for the Luas and the walk to the train platform and picking up your ticket. As a Corkonian living in Dublin who has been taken the train to Cork at least once a month for the past 10 years, I can assure you it all takes about an extra 30 minutes, plus the extra cost.

For the past two years I've switched to Aircoach and I've found it to be consistently faster door to door and much cheaper.

cgcsb wrote: »

Ridiculous, the subsidy to Dublin-Cork flights was stopped, it is an environmentally unsustainable transport solution.

The air route was cancelled due to cancelled subsidy and by virtue of the fact that rail was faster.

Actually I don't believe Ryanair ever received a subsidy for the route. Michael O'Leary himself said the reason they stopped the route was because of dropping passenger numbers due to the new motorways and people driving instead.

Of course I don't believe that is the whole story, more that Ryanair put totally uneconomical 737's multiple times of the day on the route to kill off Aerlingus/Aerarran. Once they killed off the competition they pulled out.

Smaller AerArann style aircraft would be much more suited to the route and would be economical but I believe they are afraid to restart the route in case Ryanair would restart their route again and kill them off again!

And how was rail faster?!! The flight is about 45 minutes!

If your argument is based on the environment, then we should close intercity rail and replace it all with bus services instead as intercity buses are actually more fuel efficient and produce less co2 per passenger then diesel trains.

Also I believe that there are much better and more environmentally (and economically) positive ways to spend €1 billion, never mind €10 billion.

Idbatterim

Of course I don't believe that is the whole story, more that Ryanair put totally uneconomical 737's multiple times of the day on the route to kill off Aerlingus/Aerarran. Once they killed off the competition they pulled out.

Why would FR care about killing AerLingus off it they dont see the route as worthwhile? could it become so again with the new more fuel efficient planes ryanair are ordering? I dont see it being worthwhile flying to dublin, the way things are currently, unless you need to specifically get to the airport...

LeinsterDub

cgcsb wrote: »

you can buy family tickets and group tickets at a discount.

Groups of 10 + or 2 adults and 4 kids , none of which apply to me

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

All are very mountainous and snowy countries where it is hard to build roads and they tend to be dangerous (snow) even when you do. Rail makes a lot of sense in these countries.

Again, ill informed. each of those countries have comprehensive motorway networks and good quality standard roads.

bk wrote: »

And that's the difference between rail fans and normal people. Normal people don't care about the theory, what they can actually do is what they care about.

i.e. break the law and drive at 140km/hr

bk wrote: »

Actually I don't believe Ryanair ever received a subsidy for the route.

They did indeed.

bk wrote: »

And how was rail faster?!! The flight is about 45 minutes!

central areas to airports + check in time.

bk wrote: »

If your argument is based on the environment, then we should close intercity rail and replace it all with bus services instead as intercity buses are actually more fuel efficient and produce less co2 per passenger then diesel trains.

Do you have a source for that claim? I doubt it's accurate. Besides the Dublin-Cork line is to be electrified regardless if speeds in excess of 200km/hr are achieved or not.

Aard

For the train service to Cork to be better frequented, the stations at either end need to act more hub-like. If people can't get to the stations easily by public transport, then they're more likely to simply stay in the car for the whole journey. Quite understandable.

Heuston is 2.5km from Dublin 2, the business centre of Ireland. It has decent bus/Luas services to the city centre business and retail core. But it has terrible services to most of the more residential parts of the city. People are unlikely to want to take two busses to the train station, yet many direct bus routes to Heuston would be unviable. I've mentioned before about extending the 17 or 46a to Heuston. These might work, but would either reduce frequencies or necessitate more busses on the routes.

So in order to make such services (and more) viable -- there needs to be a reason for them to go to Heuston other than to meet the train. This means making Heuston a destination. There are plans for a certain amount of redevelopment in the area in the form of offices. Completing these would ensure the demand for both long distance train and local bus services. Expanding the functions of the city centre westward instead of the prevailing pattern of eastwards (Docklands) would also be beneficial for the city for many reasons irrelevant to this particular thread.

This development model of combining land use and transport planning has been absent from Irish plans so far. There is a fantastic example of this in Holland -- the Stedenbaan project in South Holland. An improved (not necessarily high speed) rail service between Cork and Dublin would benefit enormously from the ideas of that Dutch project.

cgcsb

Aard wrote: »

For the train service to Cork to be better frequented, the stations at either end need to act more hub-like. If people can't get to the stations easily by public transport, then they're more likely to simply stay in the car for the whole journey. Quite understandable.

Heuston is 2.5km from Dublin 2, the business centre of Ireland. It has decent bus/Luas services to the city centre business and retail core. But it has terrible services to most of the more residential parts of the city. People are unlikely to want to take two busses to the train station, yet many direct bus routes to Heuston would be unviable. I've mentioned before about extending the 17 or 46a to Heuston. These might work, but would either reduce frequencies or necessitate more busses on the routes.

So in order to make such services (and more) viable -- there needs to be a reason for them to go to Heuston other than to meet the train. This means making Heuston a destination. There are plans for a certain amount of redevelopment in the area in the form of offices. Completing these would ensure the demand for both long distance train and local bus services. Expanding the functions of the city centre westward instead of the prevailing pattern of eastwards (Docklands) would also be beneficial for the city for many reasons irrelevant to this particular thread.

This development model of combining land use and transport planning has been absent from Irish plans so far. There is a fantastic example of this in Holland -- the Stedenbaan project in South Holland. An improved (not necessarily high speed) rail service between Cork and Dublin would benefit enormously from the ideas of that Dutch project.

I would say that once DARTu and Dublin-Cork electrification is complete, many(perhaps all) Cork services will serve Stephen's Green Station. At the other end of the line a re-orientation of Kent towards the river, development of Cork docklands and a new bridge would go a long way to making Kent a more attractive location.

Aard

I wouldn't hold my breath for Kent-SSG services just yet. But were that to be realised it would be fantastic for both Dublin and Cork. The Docklands redevelopment in Cork is vitally important too. I'm unfamiliar with public transport in Cork, but iirc the train station is close to many bus routes, which works in Cork's favour.

zetalambda

bk wrote: »

High speed train to Cork, Haha!!!

Ireland is barely suited to having normal standard intercity rail, never mind high speed. Ireland pretty much couldn't be less suited to intercity rail:

- Really only one large city
- Small country, relatively short distances between cities
- Excellent motorway network

The reality is the population of Cork is barely big enough to justify intercity rail, never mind high speed rail.

At the moment the journey times are:
- Car 2h 20mins
- Train 2h 30mins
- Bus 3hours

Though in my experience the bus and train are about the same when you take into account the time it takes to get to and from Hueston. Car is actually significantly faster as it would be door to door.

If you want to add a quicker option to that, then it would be far cheaper for the government to spend a fraction of the €10 billion it would cost to build hs rail and instead subsidise a Cork to Dublin airplane route, along with a priority security lines at the airport. You would then have a 45 minute journey time option at a fraction of the cost.

With the remaining €9.5 Billion you could then build actually useful projects like Metro North and Dart Underground and probably even have some left over for an extra Luas line in Dublin and maybe a BRT or two down in Cork. All money far better spent.

The fact that their is no longer a airline route between Cork and Dublin, clearly shows that their is little appetite for a high speed rail line. Pure fantasy stuff, there is simply no economic justification for it.

I'd agree with you pretty much on all points except that Dublin is a big city. If you think it is, you need to get out of the country a bit more. Or do you mean in an Irish context?

I think we can expect a high speed rail link between Dublin and Cork at the earliest 2060!

cgcsb

Aard wrote: »

I wouldn't hold my breath for Kent-SSG services just yet. But were that to be realised it would be fantastic for both Dublin and Cork. The Docklands redevelopment in Cork is vitally important too. I'm unfamiliar with public transport in Cork, but iirc the train station is close to many bus routes, which works in Cork's favour.

it is but it's not as dependable as in Dublin where you're pretty much guaranteed a bus or a tram within 2 minutes and you have the choice of multiple destinations. On a Sunday waiting for a bus in Cork City can be an utter waste of time, with less than half an hour frequency on some routes. IÉ plan to operate intercity services through DARTu and onto Dublin Airport/Belfast by 2030, so we do have quite a wait, if indeed, that deadline is delivered at all.

I would question the capacity of Stephen's Green station with regard to hosting intercity services. The space required might cause a bit of a squeeze

Aard wrote: »

I'm unfamiliar with public transport in Cork, but iirc the train station is close to many bus routes, which works in Cork's favour.

It is closer to the city then Hueston is and some routes pass it, but certainly not the majority of routes. It is about a 12 minute walk to the bus station and Patrick St.

On the other hand, while further, Heuston maybe easier to get to as 12 minutes on the Luas is better then a 12 minute walk with heavy bags!

There is a bus service from the station but it is relatively infrequent and as their is no integrated ticketing, you would have to get two buses which isn't worth it for most people for such a short distance, who just end up walking.

Ideally they should really run a free shuttle between the train station and the bus station/Patrick St.

But we just don't do integrated transport in Ireland.

zetalambda wrote: »

I'd agree with you pretty much on all points except that Dublin is a big city. If you think it is, you need to get out of the country a bit more. Or do you mean in an Irish context?

Yes, in an Irish context. I've lots of Brazillian friends, they find 5 million to be a small city!

I suppose I meant it in more of the terms that most economists say that it is only economically worth running intercity rail between two cities when each city has 1 million+ population. We have only one such city. Thus the reason (amongst others) that intercity rail struggles so badly here.

Idbatterim

with the luas at stephens green, could they put a glass box in effect over it, so that you could stay under constant cover when changing between it and MN or DU?

Also why cant you get a tram on the green line to tallaght direct? say every second tram would go to broadstone? Having to change is PITA! particularly if weather is bad...

Likewise with metro north, would it not have made sense to made the current green line, the same guage? When MN is eventually built, you cant just get on Balally, Dundrum or wherever and go direct to the airport, you have to get off and get the metro... Stuff like this with me would make a big difference, if I could get there directly, I would absolutely take public transport, but when it involves messing around, potential bad weather and airport parking is dirt cheap, i.e. under E3 a day with quickpark for long term, I dont know if I would bother...

loyatemu

Idbatterim wrote: »

Also why cant you get a tram on the green line to tallaght direct? say every second tram would go to broadstone? Having to change is PITA! particularly if weather is bad...

then the people going to Broadstone would have to change, or wait around in the bad weather...

Why not have 20% of trams going to Tallaght, 20% to Saggart, 20% to Broadstone, 20% to Connolly and 20% to the Point? Because it would be a confusing mess that suited nobody.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

I suppose I meant it in more of the terms that most economists say that it is only economically worth running intercity rail between two cities when each city has 1 million+ population. We have only one such city. Thus the reason (amongst others) that intercity rail struggles so badly here.

That is utter nonsense. Do you have any back up for these wild statements? Would these be the same economists that said the boom would get boomier?

cgcsb

Idbatterim wrote: »

with the luas at stephens green, could they put a glass box in effect over it, so that you could stay under constant cover when changing between it and MN or DU?

As far as I know, it will be possible to walk between DART U and Metro N by underground walkway, i.e. no need to come to the surface at all.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Also why cant you get a tram on the green line to tallaght direct?

such a journey would be impractical by luas, you would be many times faster on a bus that takes an orbital route.

Idbatterim wrote: »

say every second tram would go to broadstone? Having to change is PITA! particularly if weather is bad.

Because then even more people would have to change tram than having a direct service, and changing isn't that big a deal, assuming we have integrated ticketing by that time. Weather isn't that much of an issue really, we have a mild climate, it's rare that we have any severe storms.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Likewise with metro north, would it not have made sense to made the current green line, the same guage?

They are/will be the same gauge.

Aard

Exact tram/metro service routings are a little irrelevant to intercity rail. There are several other threads dealing with those issues.

Bray Head

There is talk of an undersea rail link from Tallinn to Helsinki. The cities are about the same size as Dublin and Cork, and the journey currently takes about as long - 2.5 hrs by ferry.

Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel proposals look to bring cities closer than ever

Drifting apart since the first Bronze Age fortifications were built, the Baltic Finns populating opposite sides of the Gulf of Finland were for centuries separated by empire, ideology and cold sea. Now, the historic brethren of present-day Estonia and Finland could be directly linked, as plans accelerate for a 50-mile tunnel running between their capital cities.

I don't believe it will ever come close to being built of course. But it's amazing how voters everywhere suffer politicians coming up with pie-in-the-sky stuff to make themselves look good. No doubt some consultant will earn a crust for a while doing up a report.

cgcsb

I doubt such a link would be possible economically speaking. It'd be much less of a runner than an Ireland-UK tunnel, rail connections between Talinn and Berlin are poor so even with such a tunnel built it wouldn't offer Finland the connectivity with Europe they desire. It'd really only be a worthwhile journey for people travelling between Finland and Estonia or possibly on to Latvia.

In contrast with the UK's HS2 system coming to fruition in 2 decades time, a Dublin-Wales Tunnel would offer superb access from Ireland to London, Paris and much of western Europe in as long or possibly shorter a time as it'd take to go to the airport get a plane and get to the city centre at the other end.

BoatMad

It makes no sense to increase running speeds on the Dublin to cork. Firstly you have fixed station dwell times. You create pathing difficulties for slower trains and you exacerbate the congestion on approaches to Hueston.

Simply seeking faster running times over comparatively short sections is a issuing of declining returns. Today the commute times to reach door to door using public transport at each end drawfs any potential of shorter running times.

IE would be better to attract passangers by emphasising the difference, extra comfort , on board dining , the travelling experience etc. In that regard the ICRs were a huge step backward over the best carriage arguably produced, the BR MK3.

Seeking minute decreases in the passangers total journey time by enhancing at considerable cost , a small section of the time delay is just nonsensical

The current rail strategy is simply wrong IMHO

Victor

BoatMad wrote: »

Seeking minute decreases in the passangers total journey time

No, people are seeking material decreases in journey times. It means things like trains leaving on time (trains have often left Cork 5-7 minutes late for no obvious reason), removing individual speed restrictions (often a short bridge that imposes a speed limit for several miles), removing pathing conflicts on single-track sections, having appropriate stop patterns and appropriately-timed and meaningful connections.

Running at 250 km/h probably isn't needed, but 160km/h for most of the journey is eminently possible for InterCity.

Not much use crying over Mark 3s, because they are all gone.

marmurr1916

Victor wrote: »

No, people are seeking material decreases in journey times. It means things like trains leaving on time (trains have often left Cork 5-7 minutes late for no obvious reason), removing individual speed restrictions (often a short bridge that imposes a speed limit for several miles), removing pathing conflicts on single-track sections, having appropriate stop patterns and appropriately-timed and meaningful connections.

Running at 250 km/h probably isn't needed, but 160km/h for most of the journey is eminently possible for InterCity.

Not much use crying over Mark 3s, because they are all gone.

What is the distance by rail between Cork and Dublin?

Victor

marmurr1916 wrote: »

What is the distance by rail between Cork and Dublin?

165.5 miles (266 km) Heuston to Cork Kent. A little bit more to the respective city centres.

marmurr1916

Victor wrote: »

165.5 miles (266 km) Heuston to Cork Kent. A little bit more to the respective city centres.

So you'd need to run a train at an average speed of 177 km/h to get from station to station in 90 minutes, plus you need to realistically add about 30 minutes for the city centre to city centre journey times to allow for the time it takes to transfer from the train to the Luas and then travel into the centre of Dublin, and the time it takes to get from the station into Cork city centre, a good 10 - 15 minutes walk, maybe longer if you've got heavy luggage.

As of now though, the entire train journey takes about 3 hours, not much faster than doing it by car, maybe slower if you drive at quiet times and don't hit too much traffic in Cork and Dublin.

I said it years ago here that motorways would slowly kill off trains unless train journey times were significantly improved.