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New Building Control Regs

lawlorboy

Got planning in 2011 then made an amendment which we got planning march 19th 2014 with the conditions attached to the original planning permission but no one knows do we build to to 2013 regs or 2014 regs...anyone know the answer???

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RORY O CONNOR

DCC have been very helpful.

Hairy mellon

dcc are the most p to speed it would seem

they have a very helpful bcms guide

Hairy mellon

looks at least DIT is taking architectural technologists situation more seriously than others:

http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/10/17/architectural-technologists-architects-parity-of-esteem/

sydthebeat

Hairy mellon wrote: »

looks at least DIT is taking architectural technologists situation more seriously than others:

http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/10/17/architectural-technologists-architects-parity-of-esteem/

Absolutely useless lip service.

If they have any real interest they would have already lobbied hard for inclusion on the register. I think they see the back lash, see the real threat of their technology course doing of the face of the earth, and are shooting at the hip here

BryanF

This article suggests that regulation does 'not depress construction' amongst other beauties.. http://irelandafternama.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/the-uk-seeks-to-emulate-irish-model-of-development-planning-and-construction/

martinn123

Someone is not following this Thread.

http://www.irishconstruction.com/recovery_in_residential_construction_gains_momentum.PAGE3811.html

The National Housing Construction Index, compiled and issued by consultancy Link2Plans, found that in the first eight months of the year there had been significant increases in both the number of planning applications and the number of building projects getting under way.

The study said the largest year-on-year gains across the country for project commencements took place in Monaghan, which was up by 115 per cent, Cork, up 79 per cent, Westmeath, up 63 per cent, Donegal, up 63 per cent and Sligo up by 60 per cent.

galwaytt

BryanF wrote: »

This article suggests that regulation does 'not depress construction' amongst other beauties.. http://irelandafternama.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/the-uk-seeks-to-emulate-irish-model-of-development-planning-and-construction/

Jesus wept. I can only speak for ourselves, but 3/4 of what we do is in the UK and I think it's we who should be following them, not the other way around......

Hairy mellon

Ronan Lyons seems to think added red-take of regs may be contributing to continued slowdown:
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/private-lifts-and-sunny-views-but-still-a-real-housing-mess-30630737.html

"The point is that, when introducing new regulation, governments in the EU are supposed to undertake a regulatory impact analysis. They need to be able to answer the question: what will the impact of a proposed new regulation be on society and on the economy? Given that there is no agreed estimate of the cost of BCARs on a new unit, this clearly has not been done."

No regulatory impact assessment means we are relying on hearsay and anecdote for estimates of cost.

Minister's assessment of €1k- €3k per unit wouldn't cover a Part L thermal bridge assessment let alone certifier costs or contractor/specification costs under SI.9. Industry estimates costs for a typical house range from €22k for a typical house, to over €40k for a self-build. Hopeless advance preparation assessment by minister Hogan and Dept (similar to IW unfolding debacle).

Read take on Constantin Gurdgiev here. Looks like a arger number of planning applications all-right, however these are for smaller works:
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.ie/2014/09/2592014-irish-property-prices-scary.html

quote: " Planning Permissions for Dwellings stood at 1,766 in H1 2014, up on 1,634 in H1 2013, but down on 1,899 in H1 2012. Total floor area associated with PPs for Dwellings stood at 563,000 sq.m. in H1 2012, rising to 727,000 sq.m. in H1 2013 and falling to 632,000 sq.m. in H1 2014"

Commencements after 6 months of SI9 on the Building Control Management System were running at 60% levels of 2013 (still way down)-
http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/09/10/commencement-notices-6-months-after-s-i-9/

Hairy mellon

galwaytt wrote: »

Jesus wept. I can only speak for ourselves, but 3/4 of what we do is in the UK and I think it's we who should be following them, not the other way around......

couldn't agree more. Look here (from breg blog again):

The World Bank “Doing Business” Report 2014 was mentioned by Minister Richard Bruton in January of 2014 (Irish Times 5/01/14). The construction industry was specifically mentioned as one key area for improvement. Currently we rank 115th out of 189 countries in “Dealing with construction permits”. The UK ranks 27th.

Based on the World Bank example of a 1300 SqM production/warehouse building, the cost of statutory permissions (planning and building control) in the UK are less than 15% the cost of our system here.

The cost to obtain all relevant statutory permissions for this one building type in the UK is a little over €19,000 and takes much less time. This cost includes 100% independent building inspections by a licensed building inspector. The cost for a similar building in Ireland is over €130,000 (incl. planning levies) and takes considerably longer.

Links to previous report comparing same project, uk vs ireland:

http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/united-kingdom/dealing-with-construction-permits

http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/ireland/dealing-with-construction-permits

AND this was before additional private sector costs of 'reinforced self-certification' kicked in March this year. SI9 costs conveniently won't show up as they are private sector costs- delays will however.

Hairy mellon

kceire wrote: »

DCC will not require these docs. They are Anchillary Certificates to cover your backside, the AC's Final Completion Certificate is what matters.

Also remember that the inspection plan which is uploaded at commencement is a draft plan, you are required to update that with the actual inspection plan carried out at completion.

'One name on the register' (and a 'private archive'!)

Sources close to those working on the delivery of SI9 have indicated that the BCMS system may not be expanded for Completion documents as planned.

Assigned Certifiers might only be asked to upload the Certificate of Compliance (Completion), signed by the AC and the builder.

Some professionals who believe it leaves them right back at the 'uninsurable' SI80 and that all liability will fall on the AC as the lone 'mark' named on the local authority Building Register.

The extraordinary efforts of ACs to compile lists of Ancillary Certificates, Ancillary Inspections Reports, as-built drawings and Testing Certs might just result in a box of files in the corner of the office.

Poor Uncle Tom

Hairy mellon wrote: »

'One name on the register' (and a 'private archive'!)

Sources close to those working on the delivery of SI9 have indicated that the BCMS system may not be expanded for Completion documents as planned.

Assigned Certifiers might only be asked to upload the Certificate of Compliance (Completion), signed by the AC and the builder.

Some professionals who believe it leaves them right back at the 'uninsurable' SI80 and that all liability will fall on the AC as the lone 'mark' named on the local authority Building Register.

The extraordinary efforts of ACs to compile lists of Ancillary Certificates, Ancillary Inspections Reports, as-built drawings and Testing Certs might just result in a box of files in the corner of the office.

It's all in the "chain of blame" and very little to do with actual responsibility. Presently the AC has the target painted rather brightly on their PII as being the place to go for ALL recompense, it is then up to the AC (separately I might add) to chase a contractor/sub contractor responsible for a defect and attempt to claw back losses incurred.

Hairy mellon

yes and no approved frameworks or templates for good practice available. Recipe for disaster...

martinn123

Who to Believe,

http://www.irishconstruction.com/recovery_in_residential_construction_gains_momentum.PAGE3811.html

Recovery in residential construction gains momentum

The recovery in the housing sector continues to gather momentum, according to newly published data.
The National Housing Construction Index, compiled and issued by consultancy Link2Plans, found that in the first eight months of the year there had been significant increases in both the number of planning applications and the number of building projects getting under way.

It said that when compared with the first eight months of 2013 nationally, project commencements were up by more than 40 percent, while the number of new planning applications had risen in excess of 12 per cent.

OR

http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/10/23/commencement-notices-33-weeks-on-october-9th/

Currently commencement notices are running 30% below 2013 levels which was an historic low point in construction industry output. Notwithstanding the late pick-up of commencements and recent hype in the media, we still have some way to go to even equal the very weak output achieved last year.

suppose it depends on your attitude to Statistics, ( lies, damn lies, etc )

Hairy mellon

Link2Plans spinning numbers...

Look at CSO from 10th October: http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pbci/productioninbuildingandconstructionindexquarter22014/#.VEjiyhxVd

"The volume of output in building and construction increased by 4.1% in the second quarter of 2014 when compared with the preceding period… The annual rise in the volume of output reflects year-on-year increases of 23.4% and 8.5% respectively in non-residential building work and civil engineering. Residential Building decreased by 8.8% in the year to Quarter 2 2014"

sydthebeat

Hairy mellon wrote: »

Link2Plans spinning numbers...

they seems to have very pulled out of my arse arbitary project value costs ... they seem to assume a standard €107 per sq ft for all projects no matter where in the country or the site conditions.

Hairy mellon

€107 doesnt make any sense

replacement value for typical house higher than this (any of the insurance calculators etc)- from memory €175k for 1200 sqft (pre SI9 cost)

RORY O CONNOR

Hairy mellon wrote: »

€107 doesnt make any sense

replacement value for typical house higher than this (any of the insurance calculators etc)- from memory €175k for 1200 sqft (pre SI9 cost)

TYPICAL PRICING IS €1300 PER SQUARE METER

galwaytt

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

TYPICAL PRICING IS €1300 PER SQUARE METER

€1363 is what I have, to builders finish. No kitchen or furnishings. Replacement cost would therefore be higher.

kkelliher

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

TYPICAL PRICING IS €1300 PER SQUARE METER

Typical based on what? There is no such thing as a typical one off house. I would think €1300 per square meter is very much a minimum budget for anyone looking to build but it will all depend on spec.

RITwing

martinn123 wrote: »

Who to Believe,

http://www.irishconstruction.com/recovery_in_residential_construction_gains_momentum.PAGE3811.html

OR

http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/10/23/commencement-notices-33-weeks-on-october-9th/

suppose it depends on your attitude to Statistics, ( lies, damn lies, etc )

One is attempting to sign you up so you do not "miss out" on all that busines oportunity if you work in construction. They have a direct vested interest in pretending that there is more construction activity than there really is.

The other is a comment on BCMS stats. The good folks in the BCMS get their Croke Park protected salaries paid no matter what the stats say.

Hope that helps.

.

Hairy mellon

agreed.

spot the vested interest before reading...

RITwing

Who saw any of this coming?

the new building regulations are as shambolic as the old ones but they now have some lipstick on to make them look better.

commencement notices (which indicate the start of construction) are averaging 100 per week this year, in 2013 it was 130 per week, we are about 23% below last year’s figures

nothing to stop a cowboy who can do what they did before because the system allows for a ‘builder/building owner/assigned certifier’ all to be the one entity.

but you could get an architect from anywhere else in the EU who is licenced to operate in Ireland, or somebody who is under financial pressure and push them to certify to receive payment – something near impossible to police.

At the same time these regulations make self-build virtually obsolete, stripping out about 800 houses a year, with adverse effects on people in rural Ireland who won’t obtain any upside from the higher costs and regulations

here’s the ‘how to’ to be a rogue developer. Simply set up a limited company and get a vulnerable engineer from abroad who is considered competent to run it, to do this you register with one of the organisations, the rejection rate is low, if you have the qualifications you’ll likely get through the application process.

You then get that firm to do all the forms and certificates and once the units are all sold you shut down the company and fire the assigned certifier, there is nothing to control the directorships where the builder is the director of the firm doing the assigned certification.

Perhaps what we should really do is ponder why we are ranked 128th out of 189 nations by The World Bank when it comes to our construction process. Our neighbours in the UK are 17th.

We dropped 11 rankings in the last year alone, we now rank below such luminary economies as Algeria and strife torn Democratic Republic of Congo, but we are ahead of Bolivia (only by one place though)

source

Hairy mellon

don't worry- homebond is back with a solution

one-stop shop foundation design, certifier costs plus defects insurance for €2k

http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/homebond-assigned-certifier-defects-liability-policy-for-e2000/

RITwing

The RIAI reaction - source

Ordinary Resolution 1
“For the reasons outlined above and in the interests of the Registered Members, the consumer and the wider construction industry, we the Registered Members, call for the RIAI Council to adopt as their first priority a policy to seek publicly the revocation of the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations: S.I.9 of 2014 and its replacement by a system which better protects the consumer and to actively reach out to other groups to seek support for that policy.”

Decision: defeated by 165 to 102 votes.

Ordinary Resolution 3
“In response to the housing crisis and to ensure that the planned house building programme will provide well-built and sustainable homes under a cost-effective Building Control system, we request the Minister for the Environment, Community & Local Government Mr. Alan Kelly TD:

to bring forward the review of the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations S.I.9 that is planned for 2015;
to undertake a full Regulatory Impact Analysis of the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations;
to review the limitations on self-building that is a constraint on housing supply under the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations.”
Decision: Defeated by a four to one majority (through a show of hands).

Ordinary Resolution 2
“That the registered members endorse and confirm their support for the decision of the
Council made at the July 2014 Council Meeting to develop a working document on Building
Control that would propose amendments to S.I.9 of 2014 and constructively engage with
stakeholders in order to realise the best interests of the profession for the long term”.

Decision: Carried by a three to one majority (through a show of hands).

RITwing

Hairy mellon wrote: »

don't worry- homebond is back with a solution

one-stop shop foundation design, certifier costs plus defects insurance for €2k

http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/homebond-assigned-certifier-defects-liability-policy-for-e2000/

when will they pay out for pyrites ? ........

Hairy mellon

RITwing wrote: »

when will they pay out for pyrites ? ........

very good question

Hairy mellon

any minutes or record yet of previous RIAI agm?

RITwing

And so - what value is any "warranty" issued by Homebond. To a person other than a developer

DOCARCH

RITwing wrote: »

The RIAI reaction - source

@ RITwing. Note that all these motions were debated, for and against, by a number of people, on both sides, and without any input of the RIAI executive...then the motions were voted on (on their merits).

If a vote was taken on are people happy with SI9, then I can can guarantee you this would be defeated 99 to 1!

It's how best to deal with the law of the land, that is in place, that's the question.

The problem with the motions that were defeated was there was too much other stuff all rolled into the motion.

RITwing

DOCARCH wrote: »

It's how best to deal with the law of the land, that is in place, that's the question.

The answer is to challenge the bad law for the good of the wider society. For there are none better than architects to understand intimately the defects of this law.

But architects voted to

realise the best interests of the profession

Or am I reading that wrong?