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ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE

Crann na Beatha

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Comments

Little CuChulainn

gladrags wrote: »

Divisiveness.

Public sector versus private sector is the prime example.Sections of the media heavily promote this.

Although the water issue appears to have gone some way to garner a consensus.

Do not know exactly why.

Because nobody likes to lose money.

dxhound2005

gladrags wrote: »

Divisiveness.

Public sector versus private sector is the prime example.Sections of the media heavily promote this.

Although the water issue appears to have gone some way to garner a consensus.

Do not know exactly why.

It's not a consensus. On our little poll here, in which I have not voted, 27.67% 158 people say they support water charges and will pay. Another 22 ish % will pay eventhough they do not support water charges. That is 50% going to pay months before any bill is sent out.

What we have is a temporary coalition of the selfish. The only motivation for the campaign is the hope that the selfish have that they can continue to get water free at the point of use and let other taxpayers bear the burden. In Dundalk the so called protests have been minimal. Where they did turn up they were sent out by a paramilitary organisation. No ordinary working person would have anything to do with them. Four of them were arrested, not for the first time in their lives.

http://www.republicanunity.org/rnu-dundalk-warn-of-possible-state-agent-undermining-of-anti-water-meter-protests/

Wurly

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It's not a consensus. On our little poll here, in which I have not voted, 27.67% 158 people say they support water charges and will pay. Another 22 ish % will pay eventhough they do not support water charges. That is 50% going to pay months before any bill is sent out.

What we have is a temporary coalition of the selfish. The only motivation for the campaign is the hope that the selfish have that they can continue to get water free at the point of use and let other taxpayers bear the burden. In Dundalk the so called protests have been minimal. Where they did turn up they were sent out by a paramilitary organisation. No ordinary working person would have anything to do with them. Four of them were arrested, not for the first time in their lives.

http://www.republicanunity.org/rnu-dundalk-warn-of-possible-state-agent-undermining-of-anti-water-meter-protests/

Dxhound, it has been a pleasure talking to you today. My last post asked you to answer two questions. You didn't reply, which is cool but I guess our discussion has come to a close for now.

I've read your post above and it's clear that your views are very strong. You seem unwilling to look at it from a different view. That's your perogative though and I completely respect it.

I hope one day that you see what's really going on here. I don't mean that in a belittling way either. My views in the past would have been quite similar to yours. I got really interested in this whole area and so I did some research. I listened to people I would have normally been averse to and my opinions changed.

Each opinion is of equal value. However, and I can only speak for my own opinions, I believe mine are conducive to ending cronyism for you and for me. No doubt your opinions are based on good things too. If you cast your net that little bit wider though, you might see things from a different angle.

Again, thanks for an enjoyable debate again today. I'll end with this. "When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change." We have the power to create a fairer world for all, even if we don't see how we're going to do it. We have the ability. I hope to see you on board some day.;) We need your intelligence.

waking dreams

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It's not a consensus. On our little poll here, in which I have not voted, 27.67% 158 people say they support water charges and will pay. Another 22 ish % will pay eventhough they do not support water charges. That is 50% going to pay months before any bill is sent out.

What we have is a temporary coalition of the selfish. The only motivation for the campaign is the hope that the selfish have that they can continue to get water free at the point of use and let other taxpayers bear the burden. In Dundalk the so called protests have been minimal. Where they did turn up they were sent out by a paramilitary organisation. No ordinary working person would have anything to do with them. Four of them were arrested, not for the first time in their lives.

http://www.republicanunity.org/rnu-dundalk-warn-of-possible-state-agent-undermining-of-anti-water-meter-protests/

I know how you feel, I too used to think very similarly to you. Having worked from the age of 17 to now. I used to envy the people who collected the dole and got to stay in bed on a cold Monday morning, however I was unemployed for 3 months of my life. So I got to see what happens on the other side too.

And I can safely say that by holding that grudge you are not only damaging your own health but you also allowing it to cloud your judgment when it comes to subjects that matter, they matter to you too. There are many people holding down full-time jobs and with small children who have taken to the streets. They found the time, because they believe in a better life. And many will on November 1st in Dublin. It is not about lazy good for nothings beating a flawed system for false benefits, It is so much more than that now.

If Dundalk in your eyes failed to protest properly I urge you to come to the capital on November 1st and stand up for what is right for us all.

Irish Steve

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It's not a consensus. On our little poll here, in which I have not voted, 27.67% 158 people say they support water charges and will pay. Another 22 ish % will pay eventhough they do not support water charges. That is 50% going to pay months before any bill is sent out.

What we have is a temporary coalition of the selfish. The only motivation for the campaign is the hope that the selfish have that they can continue to get water free at the point of use and let other taxpayers bear the burden. In Dundalk the so called protests have been minimal. Where they did turn up they were sent out by a paramilitary organisation. No ordinary working person would have anything to do with them. Four of them were arrested, not for the first time in their lives.

http://www.republicanunity.org/rnu-dundalk-warn-of-possible-state-agent-undermining-of-anti-water-meter-protests/

What is starting to emerge is a group of people who don't have a problem with water charges as such, because they understand that water is not free, but they are very UNhappy about the way that IW is going to be operating, and the manner in which it has been set up. They also are not happy that too many people with poor track records in other parts of the public service have been parachuted into IW.

I see meters and charging as being the only way to get people to value water. The meters mean that waste will be reduced, we might not like it. but it's surprising how many people have leaking taps and WC's that are responsible for a large leakage, and charging also means (if the snake oil salesmen are to be believed) that proper funding for water and waste water will be ring fenced.

Removing water from direct political influence (interfering) can only be a good thing, which means that in time it has to be taken completely away from the local authorities as well, and while I do understand the comments about the media inspired public v private sector split, having worked in both, I can fully understand how some aspects of that split are there, and while things may have improved as a result of austerity, there are (unfortunately) still a lot of issues in the public sector that remain to be addressed, but they are not the subject of this thread.

dxhound2005

Irish Steve wrote: »

What is starting to emerge is a group of people who don't have a problem with water charges as such, because they understand that water is not free, but they are very UNhappy about the way that IW is going to be operating, and the manner in which it has been set up. They also are not happy that too many people with poor track records in other parts of the public service have been parachuted into IW.

I see meters and charging as being the only way to get people to value water. The meters mean that waste will be reduced, we might not like it. but it's surprising how many people have leaking taps and WC's that are responsible for a large leakage, and charging also means (if the snake oil salesmen are to be believed) that proper funding for water and waste water will be ring fenced.

Removing water from direct political influence (interfering) can only be a good thing, which means that in time it has to be taken completely away from the local authorities as well, and while I do understand the comments about the media inspired public v private sector split, having worked in both, I can fully understand how some aspects of that split are there, and while things may have improved as a result of austerity, there are (unfortunately) still a lot of issues in the public sector that remain to be addressed, but they are not the subject of this thread.

That post has the advantage of brevity as well as clarity. I jest.

As someone who is probably around the same vintage as yourself, I have perhaps surprisingly not been infected with the widespread cynicism which pervades. I don't necessarily ascribe an ulterior motive to anyone involved in trying to take money off me. I come from a background of abject poverty (no exaggeration) and I only ever have had moderate means. I tend to take the long view and the wider view on things. Which could be summed up for most debates as there won't be a word about it this time next year.

Wurly

dxhound2005 wrote: »

there won't be a word about it this time next year.

We can change this if we want to. We can keep talking together so that it's not forgotten. Its entirely up to us.

Just because you've only had moderate means up until now, doesn't mean you can't have more in the future if you would like it.

The powers that be inject a lie that there isn't enough to go around for all of us. There absolutely is. As long as we believe in lack, that's what will keep getting perpetuated.

You can absolutely make a difference in this world. You can absolutely change your circumstances. Any person that makes decisions on our behalf based on fear and lack is not to be trusted.

gladrags

"What is starting to emerge is a group of people who don't have a problem with water charges as such, because they understand that water is not free, but they are very UNhappy about the way that IW is going to be operating, and the manner in which it has been set up. They also are not happy that too many people with poor track records in other parts of the public service have been parachuted into IW."

To be fair, it could well have been private sector with poor records. In effect their is little difference in both, as they are equally contaminated by the same self centred "ideology".

" Removing water from direct political influence (interfering) can only be a good thing, which means that in time it has to be taken completely away from the local authorities as well, and while I do understand the comments about the media inspired public v private sector split, having worked in both, I can fully Not so sure if it has been removed from political influence."

From past experience, IW has all the hallmarks of a privatised version of the HSE.

No accountability, highly controversial methodology, and a lack of empathy.

cajonlardo

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Which could be summed up for most debates as there won't be a word about it this time next year.

There will be lots of words about it the year after.

Irish Steve

dxhound2005 wrote: »

As someone who is probably around the same vintage as yourself, I have perhaps surprisingly not been infected with the widespread cynicism which pervades. I don't necessarily ascribe an ulterior motive to anyone involved in trying to take money off me. I come from a background of abject poverty (no exaggeration) and I only ever have had moderate means. I tend to take the long view and the wider view on things. Which could be summed up for most debates as there won't be a word about it this time next year.

I suspect you are right about ages, I don't mind to admitting to being almost retiring age, (as long as they don't keep moving it).

Financially, we've had to work hard for anything we've got, and my cynicism comes from the beating we've taken in trying (mostly unsuccessfully) to engage with the local authority and politicians to try and get issues resolved that should never have been allowed, and it's been a thankless struggle, and often a very much one way street, which probably explains my resentment towards both the political classes, and the higher management levels of semi state organisations, they're all pretty much the same, and most of the time, don't even respond, which is as good a way of dealing with a problem as any, if it's not on file, it doesn't exist, (in their minds anyway).

Another reason for being cynical is we had to abandon VHI after years of paying very high premiums because it just wasn't possible any more, and without having to make much in the way of use of their service, but now we're getting older, we're left high and dry, and it was only after a long fight that we were able to get medical cards, which has taken some of the pressure off, €125 a month for medication just would not be possible any more.

Financially now, it's dire, having lost her job when the daughter's shop had to close, my wife now gets a reduced JS payment, and at 63, she's not expecting to get offered much any time soon, and having been self employed for 20 years, I can get nothing even though I'm now lucky to get maybe 4 or 5 days work a month, and the only reason we're still in the house we are is because there's no mortgage on it, though selling it will be a problem due to the history that's the issue with Meath CC.

So, finding more to pay to IW is not going to be easy, though the budget will have helped, as we qualify for fuel allowance, but we have to watch every cent, and I don't see that improving any time soon, though the hope is that eventually, the property market will recover enough that we can downsize to reduce the outgoings.

I know where you're coming from on the long view, but I have to say that I think that IW may well be the final straw that leads to a fundamental change in the attitude towards politics in Ireland, and if I'm honest, it's long overdue. I may be wrong, there's still a lot of inertia there to be overcome, but I also think that there's a lot like me who are saying "A plague on all your houses", and telling the local representatives that, and if they are one thing, it's not stupid, and they have to be feeding that back to party headquarters. If they choose to ignore that feedback, it will be their funeral.

LowOdour

Could someone answer this...if I don't complete and return the form will the set/assesed charge include both a cost for water supply and waste water. We are reluctant to give any info to IW but we are only entitled to pay water supply as we have our own waste system and wouldn't want to be paying that extra charge

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

flutered

Phoenix wrote: »

I see they are introducing call out charges in Ireland now whilst they are standard here in Calgary I can see why people are angry over these charges considering how bad the water distribution system is in general

call out charges?, robbery would be a more fitting discription.

UCDVet

I tried to sign up via the website - but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to know where the water is supplied from or where the water goes. I sent them an e-mail, but no response after a week.

I'm not a plumber and I wasn't involved in the building of the home. Surely, Irish Water should know if they are supplying my home or not, if they are going to charge me for water, right?

Little CuChulainn

Phoenix wrote: »

I see they are introducing call out charges in Ireland now whilst they are standard here in Calgary I can see why people are angry over these charges considering how bad the water distribution system is in general

The first fix is free.

Cantona's Collars

UCDVet wrote: »

I tried to sign up via the website - but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to know where the water is supplied from or where the water goes. I sent them an e-mail, but no response after a week.

I'm not a plumber and I wasn't involved in the building of the home. Surely, Irish Water should know if they are supplying my home or not, if they are going to charge me for water, right?

It took a TD a month to get a reply,what hope does a Joe soap have?

Irish Steve

gladrags wrote: »

To be fair, it could well have been private sector with poor records. In effect their is little difference in both, as they are equally contaminated by the same self centred "ideology".

Fair comment, but with the caveat that if it was private sector, their ideology tends to remove people that are not performing in a much shorter timescale.

From past experience, IW has all the hallmarks of a privatised version of the HSE.

No accountability, highly controversial methodology, and a lack of empathy.

Absolutely, and that is one of my areas of concern, they've lifted people out of the local authorities in terms of accountability, and then put a whole new infrastructure on top, and I'll put money on there being a lot more management than there used to be, with no real plan of how they are going to make it work. I will also put money on it that where they could get away with it, the LA's have moved their poorer performers over to IW, its the only way they can move the dead wood on. Seen it done in other semi states, and it's standard procedure.

Empathy? Doesn't exist in most semi states, I've been beating my head against that brick wall for over 10 years, with very little response or success in resolving the issues. It's one of the reasons I have been so vitriolic about some aspects of semi states, I've first hand experience of just how bad they can be, especially at the management and above grades, and I am under no illusions that trying to get a response out of IW is going to be equally painful and frustrating.

dxhound2005

UCDVet wrote: »

I tried to sign up via the website - but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to know where the water is supplied from or where the water goes. I sent them an e-mail, but no response after a week.

I'm not a plumber and I wasn't involved in the building of the home. Surely, Irish Water should know if they are supplying my home or not, if they are going to charge me for water, right?

I'm looking at their booklet. It says: Are you a customer of Irish Water?

Four options for water supply

Public Water Main
Group Water Scheme
Private Well
Rainwater Harvesting System

Three options for waste water disposal

Public sewer
Septic tank
Other Wastewater Treatment System.

You are a customer if you indicate Public Water Main and/or Public Sewer. Any other combination, you are not a customer. If you are on a Group Scheme you will be paying someone for that at present.

Skylinehead

waking dreams wrote: »

Unless you can back up that statement with figures and %'s your point is null and void. What does a "pittance" equal?

Ok, I'm not going to go into detail, so I'll do some basic maths.

TD wage 85k x 166 = 14m
Senator wage 65k x 60 = 4m odd

So 18m, 20m I'd imagine would be the max when you take ministers into account.

The deficit is about 2.3 billion. So Dail wages come to 0.86% of that.
Or if you prefer, 0.01% of our debt.

Either way, it's a drop in the ocean when it comes to our finances. They could drop their wages as a goodwill gesture (as if), but don't pretend that it would make a difference.

Irish Steve

LowOdour wrote: »

Could someone answer this...if I don't complete and return the form will the set/assesed charge include both a cost for water supply and waste water. We are reluctant to give any info to IW but we are only entitled to pay water supply as we have our own waste system and wouldn't want to be paying that extra charge

Pretty sure that if you don't engage with them, they will assume that you are getting water and waste water services from them, so the only way to make sure you don't get overcharged will be to have some sort of contact with them, and make sure that your property details are correctly set up on their system.

UCDVet

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I'm looking at their booklet. It says: Are you a customer of Irish Water?

Four options for water supply

Public Water Main
Group Water Scheme
Private Well
Rainwater Harvesting System

Three options for waste water disposal

Public sewer
Septic tank
Other Wastewater Treatment System.

You are a customer if you indicate Public Water Main and/or Public Sewer. Any other combination, you are not a customer. If you are on a Group Scheme you will be paying someone for that at present.

Yeah - I get that. But how do I possibly know what the answer is?

I rent. I didn't build the house, I don't own the house. I don't know where my water pipes go. When I turn on the tap, water comes out. I don't know if it's part of a group scheme. I don't pay for water separately, but my landlord could. I don't know if there is a private well either. If there is a water meter, I don't know where that is.

Equally, I have no idea where the water goes after it leaves the drain. Without a jackhammer and a lot of free time, I can't tell if it goes to septic tank or a public sewer.

I don't see why Irish Water doesn't know this. If they are supplying water to my address, certainly, they must know. I clearly do not know. But, as I understand it, I'm responsible for the bill, not the landlord. The website wouldn't let me skip the question and there was no option for 'I don't know/I am not qualified to answer'.

_Kaiser_

mikom wrote: »

Prepare to puke...........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX-Rt7JIhIw

Kenny REALLY has zero charisma and public speaking ability.

He spewed the same shyte in the run-up to the last GE.. the difference is that we were so jaded and disgusted with FF's mismanagement that we figured that he COULDN'T be any worse!

How wrong we were - ironically with FF you at least know exactly what you're getting!

Politics in this country is so broken I don't know where we go from here. A "none of the above" option might be a start though - maybe then we might get genuinely new parties and new ideas (not just FF/FG/LAB/PD cast-offs)

gladrags

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Kenny REALLY has zero charisma and public speaking ability.

He spewed the same shyte in the run-up to the last GE.. the difference is that we were so jaded and disgusted with FF's mismanagement that we figured that he COULDN'T be any worse!

How wrong we were - ironically with FF you at least know exactly what you're getting!

Politics in this country is so broken I don't know where we go from here. A "none of the above" option might be a start though - maybe then we might get genuinely new parties and new ideas (not just FF/FG/LAB/PD cast-offs)

Cannot see where a new party will come from,within the present structure.

A party of merged independents might be an option,as they are increasing in numbers.

A change in the constitution to decrease term in government,is another.

When you consider that people voted to keep the Seanaid,to spite their noses,you get the feeling that the electorate are punch drunk.

listermint

Excuse me if this was posted already,

But it now appears the level of bonuses has been leaked thanks to some detective work by John Burke

RTE finally taking notice

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1019/653388-irish-water/

9% award for 'needs improvement'

Is this the type of crap we are paying for ?!?

https://twitter.com/JohnBurkeRTE/status/523832897372172289/photo/1

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0UHPQ9IMAAHH2R.jpg:large

Macavity.

Thank god for the group water scheme! :pac:

waking dreams

Skylinehead wrote: »

Ok, I'm not going to go into detail, so I'll do some basic maths.

TD wage 85k x 166 = 14m
Senator wage 65k x 60 = 4m odd

So 18m, 20m I'd imagine would be the max when you take ministers into account.

The deficit is about 2.3 billion. So Dail wages come to 0.86% of that.
Or if you prefer, 0.01% of our debt.

Either way, it's a drop in the ocean when it comes to our finances. They could drop their wages as a goodwill gesture (as if), but don't pretend that it would make a difference.

Thank you for doing the "ballpark" rough figures. I never said anything about TD's wages in this thread. However I did ask you to be factual about a loose post you made about salaries in the hope that it would benefit the people reading it.

_Kaiser_

listermint wrote: »

Excuse me if this was posted already,

But it now appears the level of bonuses has been leaked thanks to some detective work by John Burke

RTE finally taking notice

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1019/653388-irish-water/

9% award for 'needs improvement'

Is this the type of crap we are paying for ?!?

https://twitter.com/JohnBurkeRTE/status/523832897372172289/photo/1

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0UHPQ9IMAAHH2R.jpg:large

That's unbelievable! You don't meet your targets and you STILL get a bonus?? :eek:

It's on RTE now - which can only mean that IW is doomed in my opinion given the openly critical way in which they're presenting this report

listermint

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

That's unbelievable! You don't meet your targets and you STILL get a bonus?? :eek:

It's on RTE now - which can only mean that IW is doomed in my opinion given the openly critical way in which they're presenting this report

Ah i see you turned up for em, most of the days this year. And you sat at your desk. Good stuff.

9% for you.

mikom

listermint wrote: »

Excuse me if this was posted already,

But it now appears the level of bonuses has been leaked thanks to some detective work by John Burke

RTE finally taking notice

Serious vote of confidence below.........

Minister for Foreign Affairs Charlie Flanagan, has said there are "real and serious issues" regarding the structure of Irish Water, the manner in which the company was set up, and its communications strategy.
Asked if he had confidence in the management of the utility, Mr Flanagan said he hoped Irish Water could ensure it would be able to deliver a service to the public, and deal with the "many outstanding queries that are currently an issue" for the company.

listermint

mikom wrote: »

Serious vote of confidence below.........

Whole thing is like a storyline from the Beano.