Skylinehead wrote: » A pittance in relation to the countries finances, barely registers. Which is why the claims of "reduce TDs wages to the industrial average and our problems will be solved" are short-sighted at best. The expenses need to be sorted out, but would you want to be a TD on 25k a year? I certainly wouldn't.
dxhound2005 wrote: » I don't want people protesting on makey-up rights on my behalf. And if that is your attitude to the law, why do you bother paying for anything?
Iwasfrozen wrote: » For the last time. We were previously paying an insufficient amount of money from our income tax. You persist with this lie that we're paying for water twice.
Indirect taxation is a less efficient method of funding anyway. It doesn't discourage water conservation.
Guy:Incognito wrote: » It's all very easy to just blame the bankers . I really thought we'd moved on from this simplistic view. Everyone involved played a part. People wanted taxes lowed, people wanted more and more money to buy houses and banks took easy way and just gave it to them. To just blame one lot and absolve everyone else is short sighted
Irish Steve wrote: » Expenses need to be sorted. Working hours need to be sorted, taking 3 or 4 months off in the summer, and several weeks at other times of the year is not modern management, or acceptable Pensions need to be that, not a scheme to add to the money earnt after being thrown out, or otherwise moved on Pensions need to be related to pay, and contributions from the state, not the crazy levels we see They need to be accountable, a "recall" system needs to be introduced to allow the people to have some say over how they are doing their work. TD's need to be more focussed on national issues, and NOT dealing with the pothole mentality, that's local councillor level, and they are the ones that should be dealing with it. Ireland INC is no different to a large company. They have to present accounts to shareholders every year, and get them approved. Same sort of accountability for politicians wouldn't be a bad thing The shareholders get to vote on the pay package for directors. How about a referendum type question on General Election voting papers, along the lines of "do you approve a X% increase in TD's pay? Y/N If they've done the job, OK, if not, then we have some control, which is totally missing right now, they can pay themselves whatever they like, and we're powerless to do anything about it.
dxhound2005 wrote: » Ah now come here. It's a Sunday.
gladrags wrote: » If a bank robber robs a bank, I am not responsible. Usually, if found guilty, they are jailed. The same laws should apply to all individuals and groups who commit a crime. We have laws, which apply to robbery, and fraud. Far from being simplistic, as you describe it, the mass corruption, by so called well educated groups who led this country into austerity, is one of the most important events in our long history. Not only did these greed ridden cowboys ransack the public finances, they left thousands of individuals debt ridden. Just about every individual, from OAP's, mentally and physically ill, were affected by their actions and greed. Not to mention the taxpayer, and the homeless. " I really thought we'd moved on from this simplistic view" I am struck by your concern that the public should pay for water, while at the same time brushing aside the state institutions, that have, through there manifest greed, done so much lasting damage. And they will do it again, and again.
mynameismud wrote: » And yet you've managed to post almost 50 posts* in this thread alone in the last 5 hours *I know I've counted,how sad is that.
Wurly wrote: » This is where we differ. I think the insufficient money from income tax thingo is a lie. I am an open minded individual so i'm open to your perception. Can you tell me how you know that the income tax take is insufficient. Snotty remarks aren't enough for me to agree with you at this point. I completely agree with you on this one. It absolutely doesn't discourage water conservation. I don't know what the answer to this problem is. But I don't believe the answer is Irish Water.
mikom wrote: » Prepare to puke........... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX-Rt7JIhIw
Iwasfrozen wrote: » The money taken from income tax is insufficient because it was not enough to maintain never mind upgrade our infrastructure. It's easy to say cut waste but don't you think if that were an option the government would do it? Every party claims they will cut waste it's an easy way of getting elected without having to admit to tax increases or spending cuts. Apart from the entire Irish language sector I doubt substantial waste exists any more. It would have been pruned during the austerity budgets. Why isn't charging per usage an answer? Seems quite a good one to me.
Iwasfrozen wrote: » The money taken from income tax is insufficient because it was not enough to maintain never mind upgrade our infrastructure. It's easy to say cut waste but don't you think if that were an option the government would do it?
Every party claims they will cut waste it's an easy way of getting elected without having to admit to tax increases or spending cuts. Apart from the entire Irish language sector I doubt substantial waste exists any more. It would have been pruned during the austerity budgets.
Why isn't charging per usage an answer? Seems quite a good one to me.
dxhound2005 wrote: » Here's a clue why Bertie was so popular, especially with the pensioners. And why there was no money for the water.http://economic-incentives.blogspot.ie/2010/11/pension-rates.htmlPrior to 2010 there was only one year since 1998 when the increase in the contributory old-age pension was less than the rate of inflation. This was in 2000 when the pension was increased by 5.1% while inflation was running at 5.6%. In each subsequent year to 2009 the increases in the pension outstripped inflation. We can also see that the total amount paid by the State in contributory old-age pensions has increased from €413 million in 1997 to €3,340 million in 2009 – an increase of 709% which is driven by demographic changes as well as increases in the rates.
Wurly wrote: » That wasn't the only thing that dented the public purse though. Why are you so okay with bondholders being bailed out? And with government members past and present being paid huge salaries? The sum for the bondholders alone goes into millions upon millions.
dxhound2005 wrote: » It will be good to look back in years to come to see that the tax base was broadened. Or rather restored to a normal base, like any other country.
Wurly wrote: » Unless I have completely misinterpreted your post, I don't think you've answered my questions.
dxhound2005 wrote: » You didn't ask a question about what you quoted from me.
Wurly wrote: » Why are you so okay with bondholders being bailed out? And with government members past and present being paid huge salaries?
Irish Steve wrote: » There are wide varieties of opinion active in this thread, even within the last 24 hours, but I think the one thing that's common to all is that we're sick to the back teeth of the manner in which the political classes have misled and deceived us over the last number of years. .
Wurly wrote: » So why in the name of sweet sufferin' jaysis are we not standing united? I just don't get it!
Irish Steve wrote: » I suspect that the answer to that is that we don't know what to unite behind at the moment because there is no clear and secure option to unite behind. There are some that won't trust FF, some that won't trust FG, some that won't trust Labour, some that would like to see SF running things, even a few that think the Greens have a valid agenda, and those differences are deep, and probably irreconcilable, the one uniting factor is that there is a wide disgust and resentment towards the political elite that have brought things to the level that they have. While times were good, none of us looked too closely at exactly what those political classes were really doing, now, with the pain we've suffered, we are looking much more closely at the people at the top, and wondering why they don't seem to be sharing in, or even identifying with the pain that the people they are (supposedly) serving are enduring. The fact that they've also broken just about all the promises of reform that they made just serves to heighten that resentment. Now, people want to see real change, but they don't know how to change the system to the degree and depth that it needs to be changed.
Pocoyo wrote: » Wurly you know the answer the internet is full of T's just a week before the dublin protest boards was near totally anti protesters ''These protesters were vermin scoundrels of the highest order'' going by the regulars here everyone wanted to pay the charge all these posters that contribute 50+ plus posts a day must be loaded with money, RTE was at it too,It all changed after burtons disgraceful hollywood comments.
Wurly wrote: » I know. And again, people will only turn against others when they themselves are fearful or they just don't understand the message. We have an absolute obligation to educate one another on the real goings on in our society. I certainly don't know everything either. Discussions like these are excellent platforms to inform one another about what's going on. We can only change if we stand united. We can get better than this. But we need courage and conviction to do it. Fighting amongst each other will never ever ever ever work. We are not the problem. Just remember, we have all been given certain information and we base our opinions, beliefs and feelings on that information. The more we discuss this topic, the more information is out there for others to educate themselves. We are all doing the best we can. I know it can appear ugly when people lambast people for protesting but it's only due to fear or non understanding. We need to treat each other with respect. Listen to one another and open our minds to new information. Can you imagine our potential as a society if we were to do this?
