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Is feminism a dirty word?

Minera

I recently watched the video of Emma Watson making a speech about He for She at the U.N. and one of her of her points albeit not the main one, was feminism or being a feminist has certain connotations attatched to it.

By that I mean are both men and women afraid of saying they support gender equality for fear of being labelled as anti men?

What do board.ie members think of this would you hesitate to say that you are for or against feminism or would you hesitate in giving your opinion others for fear of being ridiculed?

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lazybones32

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Where do people get their exposure to feminists, that ends up building a stereotype of them, as negative/sexist?

I tend to give benefit of the doubt, that it's more a vocal minority - probably mostly online - that ends up giving that bad impression, but it'd be interesting to hear how others develop their impression.

Read feminist literature and experience it for yourself. The First-Wave feminists are the Founding Mothers of feminism and their bile is the basis for the current wave.

lazybones32

Minera wrote: »

I recently watched the video of Emma Watson making a speech about He for She at the U.N. and one of her of her points albeit not the main one, was feminism or being a feminist has certain connotations attatched to it.

By that I mean are both men and women afraid of saying they support gender equality for fear of being labelled as anti men?

What do board.ie members think of this would you hesitate to say that you are for or against feminism or would you hesitate in giving your opinion others for fear of being ridiculed?

I never hesitate to say that I am anti-feminism (on-line or irl) and I'm sometimes met with the same shocked look until I explain myself.

Feminism is about advancing political issues that pertain to women and has nothing to do with equality. It is nothing to do whatsoever with equality but certain women want to enjoy the perceived benefits they think are the exclusive domain of men, without accepting the responsibility that comes with them.

I think a lot of the first-world women who subscribe to feminism do so because of their own insecurities and not because they are discriminated against in health, education, employment etc., because there are plenty of Public Bodies/Institutions willing to fight your corner if you do suffer discrimination in these areas.

I ask you OP, if you are a feminist and what discrimination you have personally experienced on account of your gender?

KomradeBishop

Where do people get their exposure to feminists, that ends up building a stereotype of them, as negative/sexist?

I tend to give benefit of the doubt, that it's more a vocal minority - probably mostly online - that ends up giving that bad impression, but it'd be interesting to hear how others develop their impression.

Shenshen

I think the problem with the word "feminism" is that it's a label anybody can use if they feel like it. So you end up with people who actually are blatant man-haters labelling themselves with the same word as people who are really concerned about gender equality and will speak up for both genders.

Growing up, the feminist movement I witnessed fought for the right of prostitutes to have their profession legally recognised, they fought for the rights of unmarried fathers to get legislation that will guarantee them access to their children and some rights in their upbringing, they fought for men getting the same rights to parental leave as women, they fought for tax laws to be changed so that if a couple decided the woman wants to go back to work and he would stay home to look after the kids that would not cost them extra, and they fought internationally for the practice of female and male circumcision to be abandoned.

Since then, I've been to a good few other countries and seen a good few other "flavours" of feminism - not all of them pleasant at all.

To me, the word will remain to mean a movement for gender equality, not a promotion of women over men. In my eyes, it's a movement that should liberate both males and females from outdated and damaging gender-specific roles.
But even that notion still has its opponents.

animaal

Feminism is about the advancement of women's interests, not neccessarily equality.

Wikipedia isn't always dependable - but in this case it starts with
"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women".

I think this highlights the difficulty in defining feminism; historically many of its goals were about granting women rights that men already had. However, measures that reduce women's rights in an area so as to be equal to men's rights would not usually be seen as feminist measures. On the flip side, if a measure was proposed that advanced women's rights beyond those of men, it could still be seen as feminist.

Obviously, a person can support both feminism and equality without there being a conflict. Having said that, they may feel more strongly about one than the other.

[Deleted User]

The reason a lot of people now are critical of feminism is simply because it is worth criticising. You'll see a lot of feminists arguing for things like gender quotas on company boards and in parliaments, which are both obviously complete nonsense. They'll be citing easily debunked and untrue statistics about gender pay gaps and sexual assault on college campuses. Any disparity in achievement favouring males is because of misogyny and any disparity favouring females is ignored (see Permabear's earlier post).

Something that is extremely irritating is how you'll see feminists weigh in behind a woman with a complaint no matter how justified or not she is- e.g a woman was passed over for a promotion- you bet your bottom dollar it was because of sexism. I couldn't believe for instance the number of feminists weighing in on why Janet Yellen should be new chair of the Fed in the USA, and I'd question the economic credentials of many of them (feminists also think Larry Summers, her opponent, is a sexist so there was probably a double incentive to be vocal on this topic for them).

Minera

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Here's the problem: too many women are using feminism as a way to be sexist towards men and want more rights than men have.

So people equate that brand of feminism (nicely known as being a femnazi) with feminism. Which is incredibly stupid.
Then you have feminists who speak out against that kind of stuff and suddenly when they actually do bring up issues they're concerned over, it's down to "oh you're just like them".

Also given that you asked this in AH, I have to wonder if you're completely insane.

Edit: By too many, I mean a small vocal minority which is mostly on the internet and in magazines where they can rant and rave to their hearts content about the slightest of offensive issues.

I put this in AH to garner different opinions from people if i had put it in e.g. The ladies lounge it may be somewhat biased.

I already knew why feminism had a bad name, but the way I see it extreme feminism (my view) is definitely anti men. I believe many women will not admit they believe in feminism as they are considered as being 'sexist'. I also believe that there will be a movement away from extreme feminism due to this which I think is the way forward for both sexes

I'm truly disheartened to find that a lot of opinions are against feminism, it done a lot for women and continues to do so maybe in the current climate a more pro equality approach is needed

Tombi!

But plenty of feminists do argue in favour of equal rights. As in, if a woman slaps you across the face she should be punished just as equally if a man did it.
Same with father's rights, same punishments for female rapists, etc.
Hell, plenty of women on Boards are in favour of the above, along with other things feminism is for.

cookie24

Lets be honest here, her (token) invitation for men to join her movement is not in any way egalitarian, its more feminism.

Males need to join this movement because we are too weak to seek help for mental illness (bollix if you ask me).

Why not address the real areas of male discrimination if you want to be taken seriously as an egalitarian? Convictions, custody battles, domestic abuse against males, gender neutral constitution, cant think of anything else.

The only way one of these movements will work is if it is run by a male and female. Both with enough common sense to realize discrimination and sexism work both ways.

Perhaps UsforUs would be a better title for her campaign. Maybe get Harry involved too for equality.

[Deleted User]

Mod

Recondite49 and tritium thread banned for ignoring earlier mod warning.

tritium

BurnsCarpenter wrote: »

Great, another thread where the men's rights crowd try to make out that misandry is an actual thing.

And there was I thinking that cause its in the dictionary it must exist

Guess if you put your fingers in your academic feminist ears and go lalalalala for long enough it really does make everything go away.

Tombi!

Here's the problem: too many women are using feminism as a way to be sexist towards men and want more rights than men have.

So people equate that brand of feminism (nicely known as being a femnazi) with feminism. Which is incredibly stupid.
Then you have feminists who speak out against that kind of stuff and suddenly when they actually do bring up issues they're concerned over, it's down to "oh you're just like them".

Also given that you asked this in AH, I have to wonder if you're completely insane.

Edit: By too many, I mean a small vocal minority which is mostly on the internet and in magazines where they can rant and rave to their hearts content about the slightest of offensive issues.

BurnsCarpenter

Recondite49 wrote: »

Try speaking to a few unmarried men about access rights to their children.

Try speaking to men (my own brother included!) who have been falsely accused of rape and seen their accuser go unpunished.

Try speaking to those men who have been victims of domestic violence by their female partner (indeed this is notoriously difficult).

No one is saying of course that women haven't been dealt an awful hand too but if you live in a society where an unfounded accusation can cause a man to lose his job or go to prison, it's hard not to see the bias against men that's there.

I try not to make too much of it because I know there are men out there who suffer much more, for much more pressing reasons such as poverty. Indeed something I've noticed about the double standards of Modern Feminism is that when it comes to countries where women actually discriminated against systematically by the state, they don't really have much to say.

Then when a rape scene is shown on TV they're falling over themselves to tell everyone how offended they are.

Frankly, I don't know who they think they're fooling, almost all the women I talk to these days quite categorically say they've no time for Feminism.

Some fair points, fathers rights in particular need to be addressed. But there isn't the same systematic oppression of men, the way there has been for women, and still is in many parts of the world. In my experience, misogyny is still a real thing but misandry is limited to a minority of crackpots.

Recondite49

Deleted User wrote: »

Mod

Folks, please discuss this like grown ups and without slinging mud back and forth.

If you are just going to shout while sticking your fingers in your ears when other people talk, then you will be asked to vacate the thread.

Let's all get along, shall we.

Don't worry Mod, I've had my say. If anyone these days is deluded enough to throw their lot in with the Femtards then I won't mock the afflicted.

Recondite49 signing off. You heard it here first. :-D

Recondite49

BurnsCarpenter wrote: »

Great, another thread where the men's rights crowd try to make out that misandry is an actual thing.

Try speaking to a few unmarried men about access rights to their children.

Try speaking to men (my own brother included!) who have been falsely accused of rape and seen their accuser go unpunished.

Try speaking to those men who have been victims of domestic violence by their female partner (indeed this is notoriously difficult).

No one is saying of course that women haven't been dealt an awful hand too but if you live in a society where an unfounded accusation can cause a man to lose his job or go to prison, it's hard not to see the bias against men that's there.

I try not to make too much of it because I know there are men out there who suffer much more, for much more pressing reasons such as poverty. Indeed something I've noticed about the double standards of Modern Feminism is that when it comes to countries where women actually discriminated against systematically by the state, they don't really have much to say.

Then when a rape scene is shown on TV they're falling over themselves to tell everyone how offended they are.

Frankly, I don't know who they think they're fooling, almost all the women I talk to these days quite categorically say they've no time for Feminism.

[Deleted User]

Mod

Folks, please discuss this like grown ups and without slinging mud back and forth.

If you are just going to shout while sticking your fingers in your ears when other people talk, then you will be asked to vacate the thread.

Let's all get along, shall we.

Recondite49

Minera wrote: »

I recently watched the video of Emma Watson making a speech about He for She at the U.N. and one of her of her points albeit not the main one, was feminism or being a feminist has certain connotations attatched to it.

By that I mean are both men and women afraid of saying they support gender equality for fear of being labelled as anti men?

What do board.ie members think of this would you hesitate to say that you are for or against feminism or would you hesitate in giving your opinion others for fear of being ridiculed?

I've always thought Feminism was a disease masquerading as its own cure. In particular for a group of people who complain so often of being patronised, it's not really helping for Emma Watson to stand up and tell us we've misunderstood what it's all about.

Yes love, I can read the dictionary and look up the word Feminism too - compare and contrast that with the modern movement which plays fast and loose with human rights, regularly upholds double standards and tries to undermine Justice by lowering the burden of proof for innocent men accused of rape.

Every time this subject comes up on here and every time some Feminist advocate tells me once again I haven't understood Feminism properly as I've "only" been looking at all the mainstream media campaigns as the principle spokeswomen for the movement - what I can say safely is that we know all we wish to know!

BurnsCarpenter

tritium wrote: »

Great, another thread where certain posters can tell is feminism is really really about equality. How all those feminists who promote misandry are really just a minority/ aren't really feminists. And how men looking for their rights to get some focus are just whatabouters who should check their privelige.

Oh and then ignore all the evidence that might imply otherwise

Great, another thread where the men's rights crowd try to make out that misandry is an actual thing.

tritium

Great, another thread where certain posters can tell is feminism is really really about equality. How all those feminists who promote misandry are really just a minority/ aren't really feminists. And how men looking for their rights to get some focus are just whatabouters who should check their privelige.

Oh and then ignore all the evidence that might imply otherwise

[Deleted User]

Women don't do as well => There's some discrimination.
Men don't do as well => Sure it's their own fault, men and women are different.

ALiasEX

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

First wave feminism had their fare share of advantaging women over men. Starts at about 11:20

mrkiscool2

jill_valentine wrote: »

Have a look at any thread about feminism in AH and see how long it takes posters with chips on their shoulders - AH has a massive readership but you will see the same names every time - to take over and dissolve it into a conversation about men's rights or what feminism "actually" means, despite what the women and feminists there are actually telling them. They will do this without any self awareness whatsoever, even as they start talking about why it should be called "equalism"

At least in these parts, and in many others, yes feminism is treated as a dirty word which, no matter how qualified and diluted and disclaimered, will still invite immediate vitriol.

For an illustration of this, you can go and see the reaction that Watson's speech, though incredibly innocuous, attracted.

I'm not ashamed to say I'm probably one of those common names. If feminism really was for equality then it wouldn't claim men are more likely to be violent in relationships than women, it wouldn't claim men are the rapists in 99% of cases and only account for around 3% of all rape cases, it wouldn't claim that the patriarchy still exists and only holds women back. It wouldn't claim any of that along with a dozen other things.

This current campaign (I'll admit Emma Watson's speech is probably the closest men's rights have gotten to a full statement of "men matter too" from a feminist) is still extremely sexist in that although it promotes "gender equality" the name of the campaign is "HeForShe" which basically argues that men have to make sure women get equal rights, even though in every 1st world country they have equal legal rights and in most 3rd world countries women haven't gone through suffrage yet.

Feminists truly believe that men still hold them back and that they are better than men, which is utter madness. The sexes each have different things they are better out and all things considered it does balance out. There is a need for a movement that focuses on BOTH genders at the same time. Focusing on one gender to get equality is like fixing one side of a broken axel in a car. No matter how much you want it to drive straight it's going to keep veering one way.

candy-gal1

I very rarely if ever say or have said that I support feminism and the like because of a lot of things like it doesnt really mean equality between sexes for most people it means that women are better in a way so a bit hypocritical if you ask me!

but one in particular - If I say this and support this etc then surely that means/would mean that if men and women are equal then both should be treated the exact same both good and bad, if you do something kind to/for a woman then its got to be done for a man in equal measure! Now, although I wouldnt have a problem with this at all, would there be many men out there who would do this?! Or women for that matter!

Until that is proven that they would then feminism to me is just a great word for women to have in their heads - "confidence" etc :P:)

COYVB

Minera wrote: »

Why do you say that?

Because feminism, more often means anti-men. That's not equality, and I don't support it.

Equality I DO support, but equal equality not positive discrimination "equality". Replace man or woman with person in just about every case you can think of (work, education, politics etc) and that's the way equality should be manifested.

By that I don't mean don't use the gender words, that would be ridiculous, but I mean anyone applying for a job, arguing a point, running for office etc does so with their gender being irrelevant.

Best and most suitable person for everything in all cases.

THAT'S equality

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

jill_valentine

banquo wrote: »

This: since when are movie stars too young to have experienced anything of life our go-to people on complicated social issues?

Watson is a twenty four year old with an IQ of something like 135, an Ivy League degree, and an international movie career since the age of ten.

Fair enough, she's not Aung San Suu Kyi, but I wouldn't go dismissing her quite so offhandedly.

jill_valentine

Minera wrote: »

I recently watched the video of Emma Watson making a speech about He for She at the U.N. and one of her of her points albeit not the main one, was feminism or being a feminist has certain connotations attatched to it.

By that I mean are both men and women afraid of saying they support gender equality for fear of being labelled as anti men?

What do board.ie members think of this would you hesitate to say that you are for or against feminism or would you hesitate in giving your opinion others for fear of being ridiculed?

Have a look at any thread about feminism in AH and see how long it takes posters with chips on their shoulders - AH has a massive readership but you will see the same names every time - to take over and dissolve it into a conversation about men's rights or what feminism "actually" means, despite what the women and feminists there are actually telling them. They will do this without any self awareness whatsoever, even as they start talking about why it should be called "equalism"

At least in these parts, and in many others, yes feminism is treated as a dirty word which, no matter how qualified and diluted and disclaimered, will still invite immediate vitriol.

For an illustration of this, you can go and see the reaction that Watson's speech, though incredibly innocuous, attracted.

banquo

This: since when are movie stars too young to have experienced anything of life our go-to people on complicated social issues?

Minera

kneemos wrote: »

Never know exactly what they want,nor have I heard anyone explain it.

youtube emma watson addresses u.n. its the most unbiased view ive seen yet!

Minera

dotsman wrote: »

Equilism is about equality.

Feminism is just another word for sexism. The clue is in the name. Both masculism and feminism make up the 2 branches of sexism.

Hmmm I like that...equilism, I think ill change my wording when talking about gender equality!

So do you actively support equilism, or is it something you think about much?