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The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

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KielyUnusual

paddybarry wrote: »

Did the patented 5-4-3-2-1 yesterday. Wednesday and Sunday would be days I would do some long runs. I would incorporate some PMP miles into one of these.

Doing Rathfarnham 5k on Sunday so will miss my LSR this weekend. Normally do a Parkrun on a Saturday.

Im thinking of the following for the three weeks beginning monday 1st
Week 1:
Wednesday (20 miles with last 8 at PMP)
Sunday (21 LSR)

Week 2:
Wednesday (20 miles with last 8 at PMP)
Sunday (21 LSR)

Week 3:
Wednesday (15 miles with 8 at PMP)
Sunday (18 LSR)

Will do easy running other days (Parkrun on Saturday/Tempo 5k).

Anything I should do different?
Thanks.
PB

I think that might be a bit overkill on the long runs Paddy and you're likely to just burn yourself out for the day. Maybe something like the below might be a little more appropriate:

Week 1:
Wednesday (2 w/u, 8 at PMP, 2 w/d)
Sunday (22 LSR)

Week 2:
Wednesday (2 w/u, 11 at PMP, 2w/d)
Sunday (20 LSR)

Week 3:
Wednesday (2 w/u, 7 at PMP, 2 w/d)
Sunday (18 LSR)

How did the 5-4-3-2-1 session go? How long is it between end of week 3 and the marathon? I would say a minimum of 2 weeks would be required here.

dukeraoul

paddybarry wrote: »

Thanks,
Should I incorporate PMP in the 20-22, 18-20 and the 16? Should I substitute the other long runs with an easy 13/14?

How many 18 plus runs have you done in the build up so far?

paddybarry

dukeraoul wrote: »

Paddy- wayyy too much. Doubling up on 20s in a week with one having a good few MP miles in it isn't a great idea at all and will leave you wrecked at DCM.

I'd run 20 -22 a couple days after Rathfarnam, 18-20 the week after then 16 into the taper. You want to go into the race fresh and IMO the plan you're putting out there is a perfect blueprint for over cooking!

Thanks,
Should I incorporate PMP in the 20-22, 18-20 and the 16? Should I substitute the other long runs with an easy 13/14?

dukeraoul

paddybarry wrote: »

Did the patented 5-4-3-2-1 yesterday. Wednesday and Sunday would be days I would do some long runs. I would incorporate some PMP miles into one of these.

Doing Rathfarnham 5k on Sunday so will miss my LSR this weekend. Normally do a Parkrun on a Saturday.

Im thinking of the following for the three weeks beginning monday 29th
Week 1:
Wednesday (20 miles with last 8 at PMP)
Sunday (21 LSR)

Week 2:
Wednesday (20 miles with last 8 at PMP)
Sunday (21 LSR)

Week 3:
Wednesday (15 miles with 8 at PMP)
Sunday (18 LSR)

Will do easy running other days (Parkrun on Saturday/Tempo 5k).

Anything I should do different?
Thanks.
PB

Paddy- wayyy too much. Doubling up on 20s in a week with one having a good few MP miles in it isn't a great idea at all and will leave you wrecked at DCM.

I'd run 20 -22 a couple days after Rathfarnam, 18-20 the week after then 16 into the taper. You want to go into the race fresh and IMO the plan you're putting out there is a perfect blueprint for over cooking!

paddybarry

Did the patented 5-4-3-2-1 yesterday. Wednesday and Sunday would be days I would do some long runs. I would incorporate some PMP miles into one of these.

Doing Rathfarnham 5k on Sunday so will miss my LSR this weekend. Normally do a Parkrun on a Saturday.

Im thinking of the following for the three weeks beginning monday 29th
Week 1:
Wednesday (20 miles with last 8 at PMP)
Sunday (21 LSR)

Week 2:
Wednesday (20 miles with last 8 at PMP)
Sunday (21 LSR)

Week 3:
Wednesday (15 miles with 8 at PMP)
Sunday (18 LSR)

Will do easy running other days (Parkrun on Saturday/Tempo 5k).

Anything I should do different?
Thanks.
PB

davedanon

Agree about halves. My best remains a 1:30:30 from 2011. Last year I DNF'd in both RnR and Race Series; in between I had a massive pb of 66.21 in the RS 10. This year I finished both at least, but recorded a 1.37 and 1.34; in the 10 I had 68-something. I keep telling myself it's a Derry hangover, and it'll all come right on the day.

Bahanaman

Had never broken 1:30 before running sub 3.

I hate you!!!;-)

KielyUnusual

ooter wrote: »

Doubt I'll be doing that 54321 session this weekend lads,legs are really tired after the HM.
Struggled to do 11 miles this evening in 8:42/mile average.:(

....its Wednesday.

ooter

Doubt I'll be doing that 54321 session this weekend lads,legs are really tired after the HM.
Struggled to do 11 miles this evening in 8:42/mile average.:(

nerraw1111

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi Warren, there's no hard and fast rules, just what works for the individual. Personally, I'll be aiming for one big last session three weeks out from my goal, which will probably take the form of 18 miles with 15@mp (which is part of the JD Plan A I am following), which I wouldn't recommend unless someone has done the ground-work (i.e. built up the mp miles). In my view, the Tergat session would make a good final '3 weeks out' session, providing you have done the necessary ground-work to build up to it. It's not some form of magic elixir. It's just a session that will give the runner a decent amount of marathon pace miles, without the strain of having to do them all in one go. If your plan already has a decent spread of mp-paced miles, or there is an equally good session in the plan you are following, then there is no reason to do this workout.

Cheers KC, really appreciate it. There's a lack of MP miles later in the plan so will slot this in. Thanks again.

Gringo78

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

It's different for everyone

I had to get my half PB down to 1:23:xx in order to go 2:59, and endurance definitely wasn't the issue. Somehow I always found it impossible to translate my shorter times into marathon times (I basically always have to add up to 5 minutes to what the MacMillan calculator predicts), yet for longer than marathon distances my performances are improving exponentially.

On the other hand, I know someone who ran a 2:57 full after a 1:26 or 1:27 half, though that is definitely unusual.

Totally agree. I have always struggled with half marathons. I have only broken 1:30 3 times - twice in the one 2:59 marathon and have a 1:26 first half split from another. Had never broken 1:30 before running sub 3.

TFBubendorfer

Gringo78 wrote: »

A 1:23 is good for a 2:55, clearly pace is there, only thing it doesn't tell you is what your endurance is like. Simple endurance test is add your 5 longest runs of last 12 weeks together, less than 100 and you need to start adjusting your target.

It's different for everyone

I had to get my half PB down to 1:23:xx in order to go 2:59, and endurance definitely wasn't the issue. Somehow I always found it impossible to translate my shorter times into marathon times (I basically always have to add up to 5 minutes to what the MacMillan calculator predicts), yet for longer than marathon distances my performances are improving exponentially.

On the other hand, I know someone who ran a 2:57 full after a 1:26 or 1:27 half, though that is definitely unusual.

Gringo78

ooter wrote: »

That's interesting, never heard that before.
I'm at 93.:(
Sunday week it'll be 96, 3x20 and 2x18.

Mines at 62.....

Krusty_Clown

nerraw1111 wrote: »

KC, is there a time limit for doing that session?

Thinking of doing it Sunday week, which would be three before marathon?

Hi Warren, there's no hard and fast rules, just what works for the individual. Personally, I'll be aiming for one big last session three weeks out from my goal, which will probably take the form of 18 miles with 15@mp (which is part of the JD Plan A I am following), which I wouldn't recommend unless someone has done the ground-work (i.e. built up the mp miles). In my view, the Tergat session would make a good final '3 weeks out' session, providing you have done the necessary ground-work to build up to it. It's not some form of magic elixir. It's just a session that will give the runner a decent amount of marathon pace miles, without the strain of having to do them all in one go. If your plan already has a decent spread of mp-paced miles, or there is an equally good session in the plan you are following, then there is no reason to do this workout.

ooter

Gringo78 wrote: »

A 1:23 is good for a 2:55, clearly pace is there, only thing it doesn't tell you is what your endurance is like. Simple endurance test is add your 5 longest runs of last 12 weeks together, less than 100 and you need to start adjusting your target.

That's interesting, never heard that before.
I'm at 93.:(
Sunday week it'll be 96, 3x20 and 2x18.

viperlogic

Itziger wrote: »

Hmmmm. Well I don't know if many people really aim for and taper for a Half, do they? It seems to be part of build up to marathon for so many. Your question is a good one though. If you could do the 1.23 in the middle of heavy training I'm sure you'd be more confident than if it had been your target race for the year/six months.

Yes, in my case that was in the middle of marathon training. The following day I did a 15 mile LSR

Gringo78 wrote: »

A 1:23 is good for a 2:55, clearly pace is there, only thing it doesn't tell you is what your endurance is like. Simple endurance test is add your 5 longest runs of last 12 weeks together, less than 100 and you need to start adjusting your target.

Just looking back at my training, I have done 99 miles if taking the 5 longest runs of the last 12 weeks. What I believe is of huge benefit, for me anyways, is a long mid week run also, this has greatly improved my endurance.

Gringo78

Itziger wrote: »

In about 9 out of 10 cases, I'd say a 1.23.33 half would be nearer to a 2.59.xx marathon than a 2.55.

A 1:23 is good for a 2:55, clearly pace is there, only thing it doesn't tell you is what your endurance is like. Simple endurance test is add your 5 longest runs of last 12 weeks together, less than 100 and you need to start adjusting your target.

Itziger

28064212 wrote: »

When you say a 1:23:33 half, do you mean a specifically targeted half (i.e. proper taper, targeted training), or are you including a half that was part of a larger marathon training plan (e.g. a tune-up race, full effort on the day, but not specifically prepared)?

Hmmmm. Well I don't know if many people really aim for and taper for a Half, do they? It seems to be part of build up to marathon for so many. Your question is a good one though. If you could do the 1.23 in the middle of heavy training I'm sure you'd be more confident than if it had been your target race for the year/six months.

28064212

Itziger wrote: »

In about 9 out of 10 cases, I'd say a 1.23.33 half would be nearer to a 2.59.xx marathon than a 2.55.

Any cases on here?

When you say a 1:23:33 half, do you mean a specifically targeted half (i.e. proper taper, targeted training), or are you including a half that was part of a larger marathon training plan (e.g. a tune-up race, full effort on the day, but not specifically prepared)?

dukeraoul

Itziger wrote: »

In about 9 out of 10 cases, I'd say a 1.23.33 half would be nearer to a 2.59.xx marathon than a 2.55.

Any cases on here?

Yup. But people are different. I blew up to a 3:16 off of a 1:22 a couple years ago. Then again my endurance was poor. I'd just be careful about being over confident and going out too hard...

Toblerone1978

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi Toblerone, are you in a similar position? i.e. trying to determine your optimal marathon pace strategy?

If I understand your question correctly KC, not really. My plan is to run a sub 3 hour and the strategy is to loosely follow the sub 3 hr pacers. There is no plan B for me - if I can run a sub 3 hr, it's borderline but I'm comfortable with myself to go for broke and if I blow-up, I blow-up. I have a PB of 3.05.23 and I'm not bothered getting another unless it's under 3 hours!

But your advice makes sense that it would be wrong to do a 10k on Saturday followed by the "5-4-3-2-1" session on Sunday. Which would be better, do a recovery run on Saturday morning and a "5-4-3-2-1" session on Sunday or race 10k and do an easy 18 miles on Sunday.

I ran the Athlone 1/2 marathon two weeks ago and I intend to do a 5k race (Parkrun) on Saturday fortnight so I feel that "5-4-3-2-1" session would be more beneficial - but I welcome any advice on this one!! I think Viperlogic would suggest to do the 10k race?

Itziger

viperlogic wrote: »

Just to add another data point for those following the P&D plan, like myself, I did the two 8K-15K tune up races. I did a half marathon and a 10mile of which I ran a 1:23:33 (hilly) half and a 1:02:13 (flat) 10 mile which was a great guide of what pace/time to do for the Amsterdam marathon. These equate to around 2:55. I would highly recommend to do the tune up races. The half was a bit more than the prescribed distance but was 7 weeks out from the marathon so was safe enough.

In about 9 out of 10 cases, I'd say a 1.23.33 half would be nearer to a 2.59.xx marathon than a 2.55.

Any cases on here?

viperlogic

Just to add another data point for those following the P&D plan, like myself, I did the two 8K-15K tune up races. I did a half marathon and a 10mile of which I ran a 1:23:33 (hilly) half and a 1:02:13 (flat) 10 mile which was a great guide of what pace/time to do for the Amsterdam marathon. These equate to around 2:55. I would highly recommend to do the tune up races. The half was a bit more than the prescribed distance but was 7 weeks out from the marathon so was safe enough.

nerraw1111

PaulieYifter wrote: »

:eek:

Ha. One day its "sure I'll be delighted with a 2.58 pb," other days it's "sweet jesus, why am doing this at all."

Did the half at the weekend and it was a bit of confidence booster.

nerraw1111

KC, is there a time limit for doing that session?

Thinking of doing it Sunday week, which would be three before marathon?

Krusty_Clown

Toblerone1978 wrote: »

Cheers KC. I'm obviously following the same P&D plan as ooter and I was going to do the 10km in Moone on Saturday, then the "5-4-3-2-1" session on Sunday.

But after your note above, I probably would be compromising the "5-4-3-2-1" session too much, especially with attending the hurling AI on the Saturday evening. I think I just do a recovery 10km on Saturday morning.

Hi Toblerone, are you in a similar position? i.e. trying to determine your optimal marathon pace strategy? If not, sticking to your plan may be the best bet. Not trying to derail anyone's marathon plans here! It's a really good session, but there's also benefit to trusting in your existing plan. Certainly racing a 10k and trying to do a tough marathon pace session the next day would be ill-advised.

PaulieYifter

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Starting to consider going for 2.50 this year

:eek:

Toblerone1978

Cheers KC. I'm obviously following the same P&D plan as ooter and I was going to do the 10km in Moone on Saturday, then the "5-4-3-2-1" session on Sunday.

But after your note above, I probably would be compromising the "5-4-3-2-1" session too much, especially with attending the hurling AI on the Saturday evening. I think I just do a recovery 10km on Saturday morning.

Krusty_Clown

ooter wrote: »

Yeah I did 10k 2 weeks ago and then 17 miles the following day.
I was hoping for a new PB but I just barely got in under 40 mins which was disappointing to be honest,I put in a faster 10k during the HM on Saturday.

Just my viewpoint, but determining your marathon pace (and getting some practice at it) is probably more beneficial than running a flat-out 5 mile (on your own I presume?). The latest P&D plans are pretty skimpy on marathon pace sessions, so at worst, your getting a decent session done. At best, you'll figure out that the pace is manageable and cement your mind on your target, with enough time left in the schedule to do some more work at this pace, so it feels a little more natural. If you put in a faster 10k in the half, then I wouldn't worry too much about the original 10k. Just sounds like a bad day at the office.

Worth remembering, that you managed 13.1 miles @6:38 pace, so 5-4-3-2-1 @6:50/mile should be manageable. A race environment is definitely easier than going out and hitting a pmp session on your own, so there's a lot of value in making sure you can comfortably hold the pace outside of the race environment.

ooter

viperlogic wrote: »

Looks like you are doing the P&D plan. For that 8-15K tune up race, I did a 10 mile race. What did you do two weeks previously as there is a another 8-15K tune up race in the plan followed by a 18 mile run?

Yeah I did 10k 2 weeks ago and then 17 miles the following day.
I was hoping for a new PB but I just barely got in under 40 mins which was disappointing to be honest,I put in a faster 10k during the HM on Saturday.