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Asylum Seeker protest on Kinsale Road. Mod warning in OP.

Daisy Dasi

Mod Warning

Keep it civil please, play the ball, not the man!

hi everyone as you all pretty much know about the media coverage on asylum seekers living in Direct Provision since the summer resulting in several protests in Direct Provision Centres all over the country.

It all seems to have sparked off with comments from Aodhan O'Riordain saying he was going to stake his job on changing the system and wouldn't stand over it. But on Wednesday in the Seanad he had a totally different stance saying he knows direct provision isn't perfect but has accommodated 51,000 asylum seekers since it has been implemented (half the population of Cork! ) He also said not one asylum seeker was homeless throughout it's the years the centres are running. He said anyone in the system over 4 years has exhausted every avenue and are only in the state due to court injunctions in place on their deportations.... Why is everyone getting up in arms when the Direct Provision was set up for asylum seekers looking for refugee status but ends up housing people who fail their asylum applications and apply instead for subsidiary protection, leave to remain, humanitarian grounds etc...

Asylum seekers get their response regarding their asylum case within 3 to 6 months if not sooner.... so direct provision was only set up to accomodate people for this length of time and never envisaged housing people for up to 10 years. In 2005 a lot of asylum seekers were given amnesty under the Irish Born child scheme which had constant movement of asylum seekers out of the system but since that loophole has been closed the movement from centres stagnated.

Easter 2015 brings about changes which means asylum seekers can apply for all processes at once with only one appeal compared to 4 different processes with two appeals per process. This ensures asylum seekers will be fastracked but can you imagine the Irish deporting failed asylum seekers as they aren't deporting people even now?

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the_syco

Pixie Elf wrote: »

It is not the fault of applicants that the asylum process takes so long, it is because Ireland once again has proven itself to be inefficient....

Do you see it as inefficient because people are not deported for failing their asylum application, or because they're not given asylum when their asylum application has failed?

Pixie Elf wrote: »

it is completely incorrect to say that all applicants are interviewed and decided upon within 6-12 months.... the process goes as follows -

arrival

asylum claim

interviewed and considered for refugee status - can take number of years

likely refused (ireland has extremely low rate of acceptance for refugee status)

choice - either appeal decision and go to high court or apply for other forms of protection (detailed below)

Are there averages of how many times asylum seekers have appealed?

Pixie Elf wrote: »

delays in high court due to a total lack of efficiency and it would appear no desire to appoint emergency judges to move through the backlog

Backlog of asylum claims, or backlog of appeals?

Pixie Elf wrote: »

not allowing development in countries will result in outward migration whether it is due to persecution or economic reasons...thats just the reality -

We allow development in said countries. But a lot of the contracts goto where the government's offers business at a cheap rate. Recently, Ireland Intel won over Israel Intel to get a contract to make a new range of CPU's. All the phones are made in China, and the Chinese are known for taking all the raw materials from the African continent, yet do the Chinese get much asylum seekers?

Pixie Elf wrote: »

not allowed to work

If they came here to work, they'd be a migrant worker, not an asylum seeker.

Pixie Elf wrote: »

not allowed to cook for their families

Most likely for health and safety reasons?

Pixie Elf wrote: »

not allowed to educate themselves above leaving cert

By this do you mean no education, or no free education? Remember; until they're Irish, they're not eligible for free education under the Irish system.

Pixie Elf wrote: »

I do not understand what the issue is with allowing people to work while their cases are being processed.............. surely any contribution to ireland at this time is greatly appreciated....or isnt it?

There's plenty more people without a job. There's also plenty more people without a job, without a house, and without food.

Pixie Elf wrote: »

and the posts about it being recession dont have a leg to stand on

Why not?

Pixie Elf wrote: »

the system was the same all throughout the celtic tiger years

Why didn't they strike then?

Pixie Elf wrote: »

a side issue is also the fact that the large majority of accomodation is provided by private companies that are in the game for the profit..... and as we know when profit is the end goal corners are cut all the time.............

The opposite of "profit making" is "non-profit organisation", and you can be sure the facilities for the latter would be a lot less!

Pixie Elf wrote: »

People are tired of living in this situation and are asking to be treated fairly......

Fairly = deported when they are fairly denied asylum?

Daisy Dasi

Is there any human rights being abused in that the staff cannot access their duties in work does any body know?
I know that the Health and Safety at work act allows employees is there to ensure all employees have safe access and regress to the work place.... Tolerant From Cork... you stated one employee was kept against his will at work.. was this matter reported to the guards? I also read on a social networking site that one staff member was assaulted trying to gain access to work on the first day of the protest but didn't hear anything reported in the press...

Can you confirm if this happened or not and if so, is the matter being investigated?

tolerant from cork

Pixie Elf wrote: »

intimacy between partners is extremely difficult anyways as you generally live in 1 room with your kids....

or if your single - 3 others (in kinsale road)

and perhaps i was unclear in my previous post i did not say that it is all the time... but yes security do indeed go into rooms uannounced

That's changing now as the place is being gradually renovated for more than a year now. In the renovated blocks families are not given rooms anymore. They are given apartments (consisting from 2 to 4 rooms and a bathroom),so parents have a separate room from their children.

the_syco

alastair wrote: »

Many more do. in 2012, France had 18.3% of asylum applications in the EU, while the UK had 8.4%, in 2013 France had 66,265 asylum applications, while the UK had 29,875. Calais just stands out because it's one of the few secure borders within the EU.

Those that try to enter through Calais are trying to get into the UK to work illegally, as there's no often work for them in France due to the colour of their skin.

Pixie Elf

mostly when security guards go to the rooms it is to investigate something for management...

for instance to check if they are cooking in their rooms...

security guards may either use their keys to enter or they may knock and enter straight way...

different security guards are different....which in my opinion means that some are jobs worth and enjoy the power and some are just people doing a job...

Daisy Dasi

tolerant from cork wrote: »

That's changing now as the place is being gradually renovated for more than a year now. In the renovated blocks families are not given rooms anymore. They are given apartments (consisting from 2 to 4 rooms and a bathroom),so parents have a separate room from their children.

sounds fair...

Pixie Elf

Daisy Dasi wrote: »

yes we re started to sound a small bit petty... in my eyes it's not the accommodation centres that are the problem... as in my original post I stated DP was only set up for short term accommodation while people got their decision on their asylum cases but due to all the different processes people can apply for and appeal under are being held there for years...

I don't think residents should be taking this out on staff members though if what Tolerant From Cork says is true... what has a few chefs and cleaners got to do with asylum seeker processes?

I know life is stressful in DP but I think the protesters could have left the staff in to do their work which includes opening the laundry as you stated. Not all residents are protesting and a group of people shouldn't decide for all... maybe some want to be fed by the staff?

A peaceful protest never blocks the entrance to any establishment but stands peacefully on the side lines but still gets their point across so I think this is fair to let the non participants decide if they wish to avail of services

OR

the asylum seekers should have taken their protest to Dublin... to ORAC, RIA or some other government body instead of blocking the average Joe Soap from going to work... just an idea...

in terms of taking the protest to somewhere else....

in kinsale there has been countless meetings with management and staff.... promises are made - nothing changes

people didnt rise up in celtic tiger years as they hadnt been there so so long at that time

this is genuinely about forcing the issue to be looked at - they have tried so many times and feel like this is their only avenue

it is not all the appeals that people seeking asylum make that has created the backlog... it is that the high court is backlogged - this should also be addressed for others waiting for their cases to be heard

in fact i think you may be misinformed regarding the appeals... you can appeal a decision on refugee status and i think although i need to check you can appeal if you are refused humanitarian leave to remain

2 appeals....not hundreds like its being made out to be

i support the residents - people should not be made to languish for so many years

allow people to work............thats a no brainer

no i do not mean free education - i mean any education above leaving certificate (as i understand it)

no i mean a fair system

cant remember what else you asked

reprise

Pixie Elf wrote: »

mostly when security guards go to the rooms it is to investigate something for management...

for instance to check if they are cooking in their rooms...

security guards may either use their keys to enter or they may knock and enter straight way...

different security guards are different....which in my opinion means that some are jobs worth and enjoy the power and some are just people doing a job...

This is very simple Pixie Elf. Are security or management bursting into peoples rooms unannounced?

If so, where is this happening?

I assure you here, if it is happening, heads will roll. If it is not happening, you are a liar and a fantasist.

Stand over your claims or withdraw them.

Pixie Elf

Daisy Dasi wrote: »

sounds fair...

its an improvement for sure.... not everyone is in them yet...bit of a stretch to call them apartments...

the situation remains that even if families are slowly being transfered to interconnected rooms they may have already been in one room for the past 5/6/7 years..........

the key issue is the length of time people have been in the system

Pixie Elf

reprise wrote: »

This is very simple Pixie Elf. Are security or management bursting into peoples rooms unannounced?

If so, where is this happening?

I assure you here, if it is happening, heads will roll. If it is not happening, you are a liar and a fantasist.

Stand over your claims or withdraw them.

I have stated what i know to be true....thats the best i can do

1st dalkey dalkey

What seems clear to me from the posts so far is that we do not have sufficiently resourced facilities to cope with the numbers involved. Whatever the reason for arriving at this situation, we are where we are.
Now the question is, are we willing to pay more to improve the facilities, speed up the system, shorten the court time etc? Be assured, it will cost more.
For me, this whole asylum, immigration issue is one of numbers. We could probably manage a thousand a year, but a hundred thousand a year is out of our capability. Somewhere between is the 'right' number which allows for proper treatment without a backlash from the indigenous population due to cost or perceived favouritism.
Such a number should be set, based on cost and capability, nothing more. Once reached, all others should be deported. Try again next year. We simply do not have the capacity or the finances to commit to an open, un-limited system.

tolerant from cork

Pixie Elf wrote: »

I have stated what i know to be true....thats the best i can do

That's useless.
Accusations without anything to Bach them up.
... what do you want management to do with this useless information ...
which in my opinion is false anyway.

Lucy and Harry

How do you know these things Pixie Elf?Are you the only one who knows them or can you source this information.?

Pixie Elf

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

How do you know these things Pixie Elf?Are you the only one who knows them or can you source this information.?

annecdotal evidence..... i dont know what more can be done....

im tired of the back and forth now guys....

i tried to give a voice to the other side

Gatling

100's of courth cases god knows how many barrister's/ human rights barristers and solicitors and yet not one memtion of these accusations not even from the current protests

reprise

Pixie Elf wrote: »

annecdotal evidence..... i dont know what more can be done....

im tired of the back and forth now guys....

i tried to give a voice to the other side

And in doing so, cast disgusting and baseless accusations.

No wonder they try run you from these places.

tolerant from cork

Pixie Elf wrote: »

annecdotal evidence..... i dont know what more can be done....

im tired of the back and forth now guys....

i tried to give a voice to the other side

How convenient ... sudden attack of amnesia when difficult question is asked.

alastair

tolerant from cork wrote: »

How convenient ... sudden attack of amnesia when difficult question is asked.

No-one was claiming amnesia. The poster simply points out that they're in no position to entertain you with evidence. They've simply passed on claims that were shared with them.

As to the plausibility of abuse of a system that we know applies arbitrary searches of residents rooms - it's not much of a stretch to see it happening.

reprise

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

What seems clear to me from the posts so far is that we do not have sufficiently resourced facilities to cope with the numbers involved. Whatever the reason for arriving at this situation, we are where we are.
Now the question is, are we willing to pay more to improve the facilities, speed up the system, shorten the court time etc? Be assured, it will cost more.
For me, this whole asylum, immigration issue is one of numbers. We could probably manage a thousand a year, but a hundred thousand a year is out of our capability. Somewhere between is the 'right' number which allows for proper treatment without a backlash from the indigenous population due to cost or perceived favouritism.
Such a number should be set, based on cost and capability, nothing more. Once reached, all others should be deported. Try again next year. We simply do not have the capacity or the finances to commit to an open, un-limited system.

The reality of the system is that there is no mechanism to impose numbers of any sort. If a million people arrive, they are all equally entitled to claim. It's for this precise reason that changes to the system that make it attractive to those who would abuse it, don't tend to work out well.

tolerant from cork

alastair wrote: »

No-one was claiming amnesia. The poster simply points out that they're in no position to entertain you with evidence. They've simply passed on claims that were shared with them.

As to the plausibility of abuse of a system that we know applies arbitrary searches of residents rooms - it's not much of a stretch to see it happening.

Never unannounced.
Also RIA has a very clear complaints system. Why weren't they informed of this abuse?

reprise

alastair wrote: »

No-one was claiming amnesia. The poster simply points out that they're in no position to entertain you with evidence. They've simply passed on claims that were shared with them.

As to the plausibility of abuse of a system that we know applies arbitrary searches of residents rooms - it's not much of a stretch to see it happening.

I missed that bit. Where did she state she was informed of these claims?

And sorry, it's a stretch too far.

alastair

tolerant from cork wrote: »

Never unannounced.
Also RIA has a very clear complaints system. Why weren't they informed of this abuse?

Pre-announced random searches tend to be less effective than surprise ones, so it's not so surprising that the system might be abused. Are you sure the RIA hasn't had such complaints? Any evidence to support this belief? Finished accusing people of feigning amnesia?

tolerant from cork

alastair wrote: »

Pre-announced random searches tend to be less effective than surprise ones, so it's not so surprising that the system might be abused. Are you sure the RIA hasn't had such complaints? Any evidence to support this belief? Finished accusing people of feigning amnesia?

Harassment is a crime. Is accusing people of comiting crime OK with you ...and amnesia not? So sorry.

alastair

tolerant from cork wrote: »

Harassment is a crime. Is causing people of comiting crime OK with you ...and amnesia not? So sorry.

So, I guess you're still pulling accusations of amnesia out of your hat?

Gatling

So some random poster with a few posts makes wild accusations and cant back up a single comment so far and people are moaning about amnesia

tolerant from cork

alastair wrote: »

So, I guess you're still pulling accusations of amnesia out of your hat?

Why not? Am I worse or something?

alastair

tolerant from cork wrote: »

Why not? Am I worse or something?

Your dishonesty is evident on it's own terms. No need for comparisons.

tolerant from cork

alastair wrote: »

Your dishonesty is evident on it's own terms. No need for comparisons.

Kindly please point me to where was I dishonest.

alastair

Gatling wrote: »

So some random poster with a few posts makes wild accusations and cant back up a single comment so far and people are moaning about amnesia

Has anyone provided any back-up for disputing the claims? How do you know that the RIA haven't upheld such "wild" complaints?

alastair

tolerant from cork wrote: »

Kindly please point me to where was I dishonest.

Right where you falsely accused a poster of amnesia, where there was no suggestion of amnesia, feigned or genuine. That's pretty dishonest.