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Child Item

Traffic congestion - simultaneous positive and negative illusions?

Iwannahurl

Our recent Indian summer has got me thinking (again) about the daily commute, mode of travel and allegedly unbearable traffic congestion.

As I do the school run by bike, I get the chance to see into people's cars, while they sit in slow-moving or stationary traffic.

Car after car has only the driver on board, while others are carrying one or more children to school.

The occupants are shielding their eyes against the bright sunshine, but they're not experiencing the glorious weather because they're inside their metal boxes, many with all the windows up.

I was browsing the CSO's SAPMAP facility recently, and discovered that in 2011 well over 80% of my neighbours aged 5 years and up travel by car to work, school or college. Yet the children go to the same schools, and their parents to the same parts of the city generally.

Overall, 47% of Galway City residents live 4 km or less from their place of work or education. Every year (this one being no exception) there are reports in the local media of traffic "chaos" and "mayhem" as the schools go back.

The traffic is allegedly so bad in Galway that a certain proposed €300 million road is urgently needed, and is being trumpeted as "the most important single piece of infrastructure that will take our city forward".

So back to those short-hop commuters sitting in their cars and squinting in the glare of the warm morning sun.

Why do they keep doing it? Can they have, at the same time, both positive and negative illusions about their commuting experience as they sit in slow-moving or stationary traffic?

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pclive

They drive because they're selfish, only thinking of themselves. It's the same reason they block bus lanes, break red lights, block yellow boxes and refuse to let buses pull out.

StreetLight

If motorists want to beat the morning traffic where it is possible to do so, the solution is to leave earlier.

Tenzor07

....and it's only going to get worse come the cold weather....

So what will get people out of cars?

Increased subvention for CIE?
Bus lane camera's
Variable speed limits on motorways to keep traffic flowing
Building of practical and maintained cycle-lanes
Enforcement of road traffic laws such as speeding, L plate drivers, mobile phone use?

At the moment the private car is King, why?

Figures just released from SIMI (Society of the Irish Motor Industry) show that this year, new car registrations have generated an extra €171 million in revenue compared to the same period last year.

Car sales in August (4,873) were up 32% on August last year. So far this year, 89,279 new cars have been sold, an increase of 30% on 2013. The increase in registrations in July and August alone generated an additional €68 million for the Exchequer which brings the total for the year from new car sales to €720 million.

In addition, 4,200 new jobs have been created this year* as a result of the success of the dual registration plate and the overall increase in business.

Iwannahurl

pclive wrote: »

They drive because they're selfish, only thinking of themselves. It's the same reason they block bus lanes, break red lights and block yellow boxes.

An example of an illusion perhaps. Individual drivers think they can gain advantage by such muppetry, but everybody loses sooner or later. Here in Galway just recently we had a Councillor calling for bus lanes to be opened up to peak traffic. Why? Because drivers are annoyed that they are sitting in traffic (of their own making) while buses pass them by. It would never dawn on them to switch to the bus, which would be the win-win solution.

StreetLight wrote: »

If motorists want to beat the morning traffic where it is possible to do so, the solution is to leave earlier.

But they all know there's going to be congestion and yet they all still do it. Maybe the biggest illusion, and the hardest one to shift, is that traffic is other people.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

So what will get people out of cars?

...

At the moment the private car is King, why?

It's long past time to start implementing congestion charges, aka road pricing. While people won't understand the lose-lose nature of car dependence, they will quickly react to a system that charges them per use. Think plastic bags.

You're spot on about car supremacy and car dependence. The State, despite all its rhetoric about sustainable transport, is fiscally and politically addicted to private car transport. And the motor "industry" in Ireland equates credit-driven sales of new cars with economic progress. Another illusion.

what_traffic

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So back to those short-hop commuters sitting in their cars and squinting in the glare of the warm morning sun.

Why do they keep doing it? Can they have, at the same time, both positive and negative illusions about their commuting experience as they sit in slow-moving or stationary traffic?

Habit and Routine is a big part of it.

Why is the SIMI (Society of the Irish Motor Industry) called SIMI? Is this a legacy issue when we actually had Motor Manufacturing in this country?

As per previous quote from Tenzor07

Exchequer which brings the total for the year from new car sales to €720
million.

How much more money is being exported out of the country/economy to pay for these vehicles?

schemingbohemia

Iwannahurl wrote: »

traffic is other people

This by a million is the truth.

Galway is particularly galling as it's such a small town and perfect for regular bus runs.

Aard

A lot of Galway's traffic problems seem to surface from underlying land use and layout mistakes. For example in the west of the city there are large blocks created by distributor roads about 1sqkm in area. Many cities would kill for such orderliness. However Galway then goes and ruins any associated advantages by making the blocks impermeable to pedestrians. Just off the top of my head, and I'm sure the idea could be easily fleshed out further:- each block could have had a small park/green at its centre with a school fronting onto it, safe and easy to walk to from anywhere else in the block. Local shops could front onto it too. Instead the situation appears to be reversed so that all of the destination places are sitting on a busy main road, making it appear less safe to travel by foot even for those who live closest. Retrofitting and redeveloping these areas won't happen until the returns will be worth it - probably not until the next generation, about twenty five years time.

Iwannahurl

Very true re large impermeable estates. From an upstairs window my children can see their cousin's house a couple of hundred metres away, but if they want to go for a visit it's a 2 km trip. Needless to say they can't go unaccompanied so there's no casual popping over to each other's houses for a spot of play. Nuts, but that's Irish "planning" for you.

I think that situation can be objectively regarded as "negative". Yet 75-90% of the residents of both estates do their regular commute by car, and complaints about traffic are constant.

How to deconstruct, and reconfigure, that mindset?

Tenzor07

Dublin council puts up more barriers to cycling: http://irishcycle.com/2014/09/11/intolerable-barrier-to-cycling-blocking-new-section-of-dublin-galway-greenway/

Just like putting speed ramps on the M50! :mad:

cgcsb

those barriers drive me absolutely barmey, trying to get through them with a big heavy dublin bike is a needless delay.

Mrs OBumble

Well I've just had to restrain myself from posting something very sarcastic on an acuaintance's facebook page - she's moaning about sitting in traffic again, oblivious to the fact that she IS traffic. I'd love to spell it out, but she actually does have a job (domestic support work for older people) where she does have to drive around during the day in order to get between clients quickly enough to make a living.

On a larger scale, though, part of the issue is that companies keep hiring people who live too far away: while X% of Galway City residents live within Ykm of work or school, they will find that many of their colleages travel in from a lot further away.

Iwannahurl

As if on cue:

The happy commuter -- a comparison of commuter satisfaction across modes

Understanding satisfaction across different modes of transportation is essential to encourage the use of active modes of transport as well as public transportation.

This study uses a large-scale travel survey to compare commuter satisfaction across six modes of transportation (walking, bicycle, automobile, bus, metro, commuter train) and investigates how the determinants of commuter satisfaction differ across modes.

The framework guiding this research assumes that external and internal factors influence satisfaction: personal, social, and attitudinal variables must be considered in addition to objective trip characteristics.

...

[P]edestrians, train commuters and cyclists are significantly more satisfied than drivers, metro and bus users.

[D]eterminants of satisfaction vary considerably by mode, with modes that are more affected by external factors generally displaying lower levels of satisfaction. Mode preference (need/desire to use other modes) affects satisfaction, particularly for transit users. Perceptions that the commute has value other than arriving at a destination significantly increases satisfaction for all modes.

Findings from this study provide a better understanding of determinants of trip satisfaction to transport professionals who are interested in this topic and working on increasing satisfaction among different mode users.

American research obviously, but possibly applicable here.

KevR

Nobody is forced to stay in Galway if they don't like the car culture here. There are hundreds of public transport/cycling oriented towns and cities across Europe so it's not like people are stuck for choice if that's how they want to live.

Galway people like to live in houses (low density, not suited to public transport) and the car is the preferred form of transport. I don't see why cycling and public transport should be forced down anyone's neck. There is nothing wrong with being a motorist. The car is king in Galway - yes that is different to a lot of European towns/cities but different is good.

Galway doubled in size in 20 years. Personally, I think the car culture was part of the attraction for people moving to Galway and contributed heavily towards the drastic population increase. Population increases have put serious strain on the road network though. It would be great if we could make some MAJOR improvements to the road network (I'm talking bypass and a whole lot more), but unfortunately there is a minority in Galway who make a huge amount of noise against road upgrades and improvements.

It's a pity because Galway is now stuck in no mans land in terms of developing and expanding further. People clearly aren't going to switch away from driving (on a large scale) and objections will massively delay road developments from going ahead.

Tenzor07

KevR wrote: »

Nobody is forced to stay in Galway if they don't like the car culture here. There are hundreds of public transport/cycling oriented towns and cities across Europe so it's not like people are stuck for choice if that's how they want to live.

The car is king in Galway - yes that is different to a lot of European towns/cities but different is good.

I think the car culture was part of the attraction for people moving to Galway

Wow, yea.. "Come to Galway for a weekend break..." no thanks!

I'll pitch a tent near the entrance to the long term car park at Dublin Airport instead, probably exactly the same as Galway, the way you make it out! :rolleyes:

Or maybe just holiday in one of these lovely uncongested European cities where people come first not roads and private cars.... :rolleyes:

Iwannahurl

KevR wrote: »

Nobody is forced to stay in Galway if they don't like the car culture here. There are hundreds of public transport/cycling oriented towns and cities across Europe so it's not like people are stuck for choice if that's how they want to live.

Galway people like to live in houses (low density, not suited to public transport) and the car is the preferred form of transport. I don't see why cycling and public transport should be forced down anyone's neck. There is nothing wrong with being a motorist. The car is king in Galway - yes that is different to a lot of European towns/cities but different is good.

Galway doubled in size in 20 years. Personally, I think the car culture was part of the attraction for people moving to Galway and contributed heavily towards the drastic population increase. Population increases have put serious strain on the road network though. It would be great if we could make some MAJOR improvements to the road network (I'm talking bypass and a whole lot more), but unfortunately there is a minority in Galway who make a huge amount of noise against road upgrades and improvements.

It's a pity because Galway is now stuck in no mans land in terms of developing and expanding further. People clearly aren't going to switch away from driving (on a large scale) and objections will massively delay road developments from going ahead.

Like I said, a lot of illusions.

What's being forced down people's throats in Galway -- quite literally -- is air pollution cause by motorised transport, for example.

Then there's the very serious issue of CO2 emissions from the transport sector, an externalised cost which again affects everyone and not just the emitters. To which we should also add road traffic injuries, noise pollution, community severance and other negative public health outcomes.

When I cycle, walk or take the bus I am contributing little or nothing to any of the above. In fact I am making a positive difference.

I live in a house, yet unlike the vast majority of my neighbours, who are in very similar circumstances, I choose to avoid adding to traffic-related problems as much as I can (though I admit I could do a lot more).

"Population increases have put serious strain on the road network" yet "nobody is forced to stay in Galway" if they don't like the alleged strain.

That's the question: if the "strain" is so bad why do they keep getting up every day (many of them not long before 8am, it would appear) and doing the same as so many others, ie driving a few km down the road?

I still don't understand the mentality that insists the strain is so awful yet is something voluntarily entered into every day.

Maybe they enjoy both sitting in traffic of their own making and complaining about it.

Bt_mmKACMAA-al3.png:large

KevR

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Wow, yea.. "Come to Galway for a weekend break..." no thanks!

I'll pitch a tent near the entrance to the long term car park at Dublin Airport instead, probably exactly the same as Galway, the way you make it out! :rolleyes:

Or maybe just holiday in one of these lovely uncongested European cities where people come first not roads and private cars.... :rolleyes:

Admittedly, car dependence not everyone's cup of tea. However, Galway has done remarkably well in terms of population growth in the nineties and noughties. It also punches well above it's weight in terms of tourism.

It's possible to solve the congestion without having to force people into cycling and public transport. Don't you think?

cgcsb

KevR wrote: »

Nobody is forced to stay in Galway if they don't like the car culture here. There are hundreds of public transport/cycling oriented towns and cities across Europe so it's not like people are stuck for choice if that's how they want to live.

Galway people like to live in houses (low density, not suited to public transport) and the car is the preferred form of transport. I don't see why cycling and public transport should be forced down anyone's neck. There is nothing wrong with being a motorist. The car is king in Galway - yes that is different to a lot of European towns/cities but different is good.

Galway doubled in size in 20 years. Personally, I think the car culture was part of the attraction for people moving to Galway and contributed heavily towards the drastic population increase. Population increases have put serious strain on the road network though. It would be great if we could make some MAJOR improvements to the road network (I'm talking bypass and a whole lot more), but unfortunately there is a minority in Galway who make a huge amount of noise against road upgrades and improvements.

It's a pity because Galway is now stuck in no mans land in terms of developing and expanding further. People clearly aren't going to switch away from driving (on a large scale) and objections will massively delay road developments from going ahead.

You're having a laugh, you want Galway to be chocked by traffic and suburban sprawl. Why should you be allowed force car congestion into the old narrow streets

KevR

cgcsb wrote: »

You're having a laugh, you want Galway to be chocked by traffic and suburban sprawl. Why should you be allowed force car congestion into the old narrow streets

What on earth are you talking about? I don't want Galway to be choked with traffic. I would much rather if they built the bypass and made some other much needed road improvements.

Tenzor07

KevR wrote: »

Admittedly, car dependence not everyone's cup of tea. However, Galway has done remarkably well in terms of population growth in the nineties and noughties. It also punches well above it's weight in terms of tourism.

It's possible to solve the congestion without having to force people into cycling and public transport. Don't you think?

If based on your points that the "Car is King" and "car culture" is a big part of Galway city, then why would anyone want to visit the place, dodge cars, and breath in Diesel fumes?

Other than to stay overnight as a stopover to Visit the West coast?

Tenzor07

KevR wrote: »

What on earth are you talking about? I don't want Galway to be choked with traffic. I would much rather if they built the bypass and made some other much needed road improvements.

Build more roads = even more motor traffic and congestion, it's a basic fact..

KevR

Tenzor07 wrote: »

If based on your points that the "Car is King" and "car culture" is a big part of Galway city, then why would anyone want to visit the place, dodge cars, and breath in Diesel fumes?

Other than to stay overnight as a stopover to Visit the West coast?

People wouldn't visit if they had an issue with Galway being car dependent. It's not an issue for tourists, clearly.

You view car culture as being something aweful. A lot of people do not think along those lines, especially in the Galway area. Also, making the city more car friendly doesn't mean it has to become less cycle/pedestrian friendly. The bypass would be immense for Galway - it will improve the quality of life for everyone in the city and make it a more attractive place to do business.

Tenzor07

KevR wrote: »

People wouldn't visit if they had an issue with Galway being car dependent. It's not an issue for tourists, clearly.

You view car culture as being something aweful. A lot of people do not think along those lines, especially in the Galway area. Also, making the city more car friendly doesn't mean it has to become less cycle/pedestrian friendly. The bypass would be immense for Galway - it will improve the quality of life for everyone in the city and make it a more attractive place to do business.

Great as a stopover point for seeing the West coast?

To attract employment through say FDI into the city, which these days are made up of technology/services based companies rather than manufacturing they look at the quality of life, public transport links, availability of accommodation in the city.. How attractive is a city where the car is king, roads are everywhere, building space converted into car parks, and housing is only available outside the city if you have a car...
Young staff moving to Galway suddenly have to buy cars and live an hour or so's drive from work...(or half that by public transport/bus/cycle lanes/preferential bus traffic signals etc)
It just doesn't work...

Facebook and Google are based close to apartments, train and Luas links, cycle lanes, bus links, and public bike schemes... It is FAR from perfect, but it's better where you need a car to get around?

SeanW

pclive wrote: »

They drive because they're selfish

Ah yes, another thread with a bunch of political cyclists doing an Animal Farm-esque rendition of "two wheels good, four wheels baaaaaaad" blaming horrible evil motorists for everything short of Ebola.

We haven't had one of those in a while

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It would never dawn on them to switch to the bus, which would be the win-win solution.

If it genuinely was a win-win solution they would be doing it, don't you think?

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The traffic is allegedly so bad in Galway that a certain proposed €300 million road is urgently needed, and is being trumpeted as "the most important single piece of infrastructure that will take our city forward".

Ok, you don't think the Galway bypass is needed. But then ...

It's long past time to start implementing congestion charges, aka road pricing.

You claim to live in Galway but from that post I have to wonder if you've ever even seen the place on a map. Specifically in the context of Galway City, it has the disadvantage of being a nodal point for all the important roads in the area. All roads lead to it and there is no way around it.

Going from Barna to Athenry? Gotta go through Galway City Centre. Ditto for a move like Spiddal-Dublin. The only alternative is a 100km diversion along crap roads around lough Corrib.

In a more general sense, I am assuming your congestion charges are based on those of London, in the United Kingdom. So you want to copy the UK. But do you also want to copy the UKs stance on Vehicle Registration Tax (they don't have any) or their stance on Road Tax (a colloquialism for Irish Motor Tax, vs UK Vehicle Excise Duty) where yet again the UK system is much, much less punitive costing only between 1/5 and 1/2 in every category? (My car costs €800 to tax in Ireland, if I moved to the UK that would go down to about €200).

Or do you just want to copy the punitive parts?

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Wow, yea.. "Come to Galway for a weekend break..." no thanks!

I'll pitch a tent near the entrance to the long term car park at Dublin Airport instead, probably exactly the same as Galway, the way you make it out! :rolleyes:

Galway was always mad fun like in Salthill last time I was there, but Iwannahurls "congestion charge" and some of the other stuff he wants like speed cameras behind every signpost and garbage can would kinda put me off going there.

And I certainly wouldn't go sightseeing in Spiddal either if it meant I had to drive through a Galway city that IWH had redesigned, unless of course the city was bypassed which would benefit everyone.

Or maybe just holiday in one of these lovely uncongested European cities where people come first not ... cars.... :rolleyes:

Yes, some places put cars first for no reason. Cars just get up and decide to go places, just by themselves. Funny, I thought PEOPLE used cars to go places ... hmm guess I was wrong. In that case I'd better lock up my old Avensis, in case it suddenly falls in love with that nice Merc down the street and they decide to run off together - after all according to you the roads are built for cars, as though such things did not also serve people.

Iwannahurl

Tenzor07 wrote: »

If based on your points that the "Car is King" and "car culture" is a big part of Galway city, then why would anyone want to visit the place, dodge cars, and breath in Diesel fumes?

Other than to stay overnight as a stopover to Visit the West coast?

The dilettante Libertarians have arrived on the scene, so perhaps now is a good time to start on those urgent jobs such as tidying the paper clips or dusting the monitor.

I think your adverse reaction to Galway is actually a negative illusion.

Yes we're frequently choked with fume-spewing traffic, but cycling is an ideal way to avoid that. Curiously enough, cyclists are actually exposed to less air pollution than car occupants. Not many people know that...

As for the Holy Grail Panacea Great White Hope Galway City Outer Bypass, its alleged purpose is to ensure that you avoid Galway City.

Tenzor07

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The dilettante Libertarians have arrived on the scene, so perhaps now is a good time to start on those urgent jobs such as tidying the paper clips or dusting the monitor.

I think your adverse reaction to Galway is actually a negative illusion.

Yes we're frequently choked with fume-spewing traffic, but cycling is an ideal way to avoid that. Curiously enough, cyclists are actually exposed to less air pollution than car occupants. Not many people know that...

As for the Holy Grail Panacea Great White Hope Galway City Outer Bypass, its alleged purpose is to ensure that you avoid Galway City.

"dilettante Libertarians" eh? You talking about me?

As for the Galway by-pass, yes, you can see how well the M50 performs the same function... :rolleyes:

Markcheese

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Dublin council puts up more barriers to cycling: http://irishcycle.com/2014/09/11/intolerable-barrier-to-cycling-blocking-new-section-of-dublin-galway-greenway/

Just like putting speed ramps on the M50! :mad:

Ah Here, you don't want to be having bikes on cycle path now do you ...

There are lots of "good reasons" people use cars to get to work ,drop kids at school,ect.. Most of them lifestyle related.
My young fella has just started school (we made sure he started one within walking distance), his mam usually drops him off on the way to her work , so that means the car...or she has the 2 year old with her when not at work so that means the car,
Or granny is picking him up (also with 2 year old) so that means her car because it's a steep hill to get there .
The upshot is I'd like to use the car less but I'll pick him up from school max twice a week with the buggy when I'm free , if it's not raining , and I can put up with the grumbling from the small fella...
I tried using the bike a couple of times, apart from the near heart attack going up the hill with the smally on the back , I didn't feel safe with the 4 year old on cross bar seat as well ..

Tenzor07

Markcheese wrote: »

Ah Here, you don't want to be having bikes on cycle path now do you ...

There are lots of "good reasons" people use cars to get to work ,drop kids at school,ect.. Most of them lifestyle related.
My young fella has just started school (we made sure he started one within walking distance), his mam usually drops him off on the way to her work , so that means the car...or she has the 2 year old with her when not at work so that means the car,
Or granny is picking him up (also with 2 year old) so that means her car because it's a steep hill to get there .
The upshot is I'd like to use the car less but I'll pick him up from school max twice a week with the buggy when I'm free , if it's not raining , and I can put up with the grumbling from the small fella...
I tried using the bike a couple of times, apart from the near heart attack going up the hill with the smally on the back , I didn't feel safe with the 4 year old on cross bar seat as well ..

There's another thread on the issue of barriers on cycle-tracks... http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057288600

As for your other points, I don't want to get dragged into one of those eternal private car vs. Bicycle debates on boards...:rolleyes:

Markcheese

KevR wrote: »

What on earth are you talking about? I don't want Galway to be choked with traffic. I would much rather if they built the bypass and made some other much needed road improvements.

Do they have the money for the bypass ? Will it just make the problem worse ?
A bigger better bypass means more people commuting further at the same times,all blocking same junctions ect ect.. (there's a thread on motors at the moment bemoaning the state of the m50 at the moment )
Actually now would be the right time for Galway city/county to get behind a cycle friendly policy as well as a few decent bus corridors... Before it ends up more complicated by new roads...

Markcheese

Tenzor07 wrote: »

There's another thread on the issue of barriers on cycle-tracks... http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057288600

As for your other points, I don't want to get dragged into one of those eternal private car vs. Bicycle debates on boards...:rolleyes:

I'm both bike and car ... I can see the sense of increasing/promoting bike use (for everyone else but me obviously :-) )
But I'm a "victim" or "product" of road building ... (live in a village 30 mins from city because of a nice dual carriage way and ring road,couldn't buy in city because of price 8 years ago yahdy yahdy yah...)
I'm not a a cycling zealot ,Nor do I own a racer or Lycra and cycle a dual
carriage way at weekend , I'd Like to use my bike more doing everyday stuff
but life (2.4 kids,work ect) gets in the way, so I cycle to the shop a couple of times a week to get milk (that I could pick up as I drive by in the van )

Iwannahurl

Tenzor07 wrote: »

"dilettante Libertarians" eh? You talking about me?

As for the Galway by-pass, yes, you can see how well the M50 performs the same function... :rolleyes:

No not you! Perish the thought.

Sorry for any confusion. Unless you really are a Libertarian, dilettante or otherwise.