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Is it self defeatist to say that some men are meant to be alone??‏

SharpshooterTom

I'm just beginning to wonder about this because I've recently turned 28 (so I'm not exactly a kid anymore) and I've never been in a relationship, never kissed a girl, and and yes not surprisingly I'm still a virgin LOL. And whats more depressing is that I've never been remotely close in actually having any of those experiences!

If I am being hoenst I've been plagued with all sorts of social problems throughout my teenage years and adult life, social anxiety (putting people off me as if I smell of B.O.) which lead to me socially avoiding people (I felt I was so unappealing to people I felt I had no choice) and so a viscous cycle had then ensured. This continued throughout school and university to the point where I snapped and fell into deep depression and few years back (extremely low self esteem) I attempted suicide.

I got help though with therapy and CBT (I used to post in the depression thread in AH and people there were a great help!), so I'm ok now, I'm improving aspects of my life. But I've still not yet improved aspects of my social life greatly in any real way. Sure I'm not as socially anxious, and certainly not socially avoidant, but I still don't have any real friends. I get the impression I'm just not that appealing as a person and perhaps its the way its meant to be.

I mean in the 40 year old virgin, he at least he had a happy ending, unless I went to an escort, there's every chance I'm probably going to die this way! :eek:

Is it too self defeatist to suggest that some men, whether they like it or not, are destined to be alone for the rest of their lives? Is it too unrealistic for some us to contemplate a relationship?

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audi12

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You can't tar the entire female population with one brush based on a few experiences.

Like i said not all women but speaking to make friends they agree with me

ancapailldorcha

audi12 wrote: »

Not being insulting but you are not male correct if you were you would most likely have come across the same issue when meeting women out etc

I never came across that attitude more than a few times. It's a poor way of covering up that she's just not interested in you IMO. It's always the same spiel; she's a bitch, lesbian, up herself or whatever nonsense. I've had plenty of women pass me over and, depressing as it is (to be left on the shelf) they're well within their right to be choosy.

audi12

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I never came across that attitude more than a few times. It's a poor way of covering up that she's just not interested in you IMO. It's always the same spiel; she's a bitch, lesbian, up herself or whatever nonsense. I've had plenty of women pass me over and, depressing as it is (to be left on the shelf) they're well within their right to be choosy.

you are entitled to your view i know loads of guys who agree with me a lot of irish women seem to be up themselves compared with english women.

Sauve

Mod

audi12, do not post on this thread again.
Thank you.

Bafucin

audi12 wrote: »

you are entitled to your view i know loads of guys who agree with me a lot of irish women seem to be up themselves compared with english women.

Not true. And certainly not true with European or American women in their own countries.

Bafucin

Mike747 wrote: »

Well my experiences with Asian women is they're far more feminine and sweet and good natured. Whereas a lot of western women have a 'I'm a bitch and if you can't handle that then you don't deserve me' attitude.

That's a cultural misconception.

Asian culture is hyper polite...its not the character of the person ...the men are that way too...

It's like thai people and smiling..they smile a lot more ...even when not pleased...

Bafucin

Parts of this forum are starting to read like reddit.

Bafucin

Mike747 wrote: »

Yes all Thai women are whores and transexuals. Seriously though Asia in general is a great place for a white man.

Not really.

In asian culture marriage is more business like. And you can be expected to deal with family in a much more intimate way than you would be expected to here.

Families expect financial support or can do. If an Asian woman is giving preference to western men it's for a reason. Don't kid yourself. Also in china there are FAR more men than women anyway.

Bafucin

Look there are plenty of horrible bitches and bastards out there.

The wonderful thing is you don't have to let them into your life. I choose who I am friends with and who I give time to.

Why give so much time thinking about them? It's what they want. Give your time to those who deserve it. Don't dwell negatively others can sense it.

ongarboy

As been pointed out numerous times on this thread and others and unfortunately it will never be understood by those who need to understand it most, just because someone does not fancy you or reciprocate your move on them does not mean they are up themselves, bitchy, a lesbian etc etc etc.

Are you an a**hole, up yourself etc because you don't fancy a particular woman who may like you? No? Then why is a girl and all of her ilk, nationality, gender etc such when she doesn't fancy you?

While the online world has been a godsend for the dating scene in many respects (eg gay people living in rural areas now having access to similar which was impossible 10 or more years ago) I wonder has the retreat into the online and virtual world made meeting significant others even more difficult in other respects these days. It gives a platform for deluded, bitter, rejected and resentful individuals to spout and reinforce their misguided beliefs and get solidarity from other similarly affected individuals. The unfortunate result is that they will never have the opportunity to get what they want the most but fail to see that it's all their own doing.

I think the thread has strayed from what OP intended but all I can say is that OP himself is doing great things and is on his way and should keep up the positive attitude. Anyone who tells him otherwise comes across to me as individuals having bigger problems (anyone who has a hang up on the concept of being nice (true meaning of the word) is a problem individual imo), and are possibly projecting their own issues on to him and others in this thread.

Dial Hard

This, this and a thousand times, this, Ongarboy. Well said.

HiGlo

Hi there,
There’s a difference between being realistic and self-defeatist…. You appear to me to be self-defeatist. There is what’s known as a self fulfilling prophecy, that’s where you’re headed.
Only you know the reality of your situation and your feelings so my thoughts or advise may be off focus a little, but anyway….
You mentioned that you don’t have any real friends… For me, this is where you need to start. Is there anyone you hang out with or know that you might like to be better friends with, or you feel you might get on well with? Perhaps if you can identify one person that you would like to be friends with, pursue that. Don’t passively wait for people to pursue friendship with you. Just suggest catching up over a pint some time, or if there’s a similar interest you share suggest doing something together or going to see something together. (Pub, movie, watching a match in the pub, kick about in the park, photography – whatever kind of interests you might have). I have certainly built friendships with former colleagues based on a random night out or something where we’ve just found common ground and clicked… Just focus on building a friendship with one person for the moment. That will give you a social outlet and perhaps a link to other similar people… It should also help you improve your self worth and confidence. Like lamegerty says, initiate conversation, take that first step. Be proactive rather than waiting for friendship to come to you. It’s not as hard as you think. Honestly.

I think you should focus on building your social and self confidence and comfort before you start looking for a woman. Once you’re comfortable with yourself and your life you’ll be in a stronger position to seek out dating opportunities.
For the moment I don’t think internet dating would be good. It’s too isolated (you sit in your room on your own). Small things like chatting to a girl at work or in a pub, with no ulterior motive other than conversation will help you feel a bit easier about approaching women when you are genuinely interested.

I haven’t read the bulk of this thread, but I have mixed views on the “women are up themselves” argument. I have def seen women in clubs sneering at men and speaking with a superior attitude to guys who approach them who they’re not interested in, but I think this is the minority. Most women will be polite and dismissive without being rude (we have YEARS of practice at this ****!). I think the level of drunkness of the guy can also have a big impact… I have been approached by guys I’m not interested in, I will be polite and subtly indicate that I’m not interested. If they don’t pick up, I’ll be a bit more obvious about it. If the guy is really drunk he may keep pushing and I’ll most likely politely be a bit more blunt. They’ll keep going and it gets to a point then when I have to make it VERY clear. The alcohol induced paranoia will then tell the guy that I’m being a bitch and they’ll get pissed off and possibly aggressive and tell me I think I’m “up myself”. The next day, they won’t remember the ongoing conversation in which I made it clear I wasn’t interested and they were bothering me, they’ll remember the moment 20 mins later when I snapped and asked them to leave and turned my back on them – and that will reaffirm their belief that “women are full of themselves and rude when approached by guys”.

Potatoeman

Bafucin wrote: »

Look there are plenty of horrible bitches and bastards out there.

The wonderful thing is you don't have to let them into your life. I choose who I am friends with and who I give time to.

Why give so much time thinking about them? It's what they want. Give your time to those who deserve it. Don't dwell negatively others can sense it.

Women have to deal with pushy guys and men have to deal with rude women so it seems to even out.

Y2KBOS86

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I never came across that attitude more than a few times. It's a poor way of covering up that she's just not interested in you IMO. It's always the same spiel; she's a bitch, lesbian, up herself or whatever nonsense. I've had plenty of women pass me over and, depressing as it is (to be left on the shelf) they're well within their right to be choosy.

I have.

Polish friend of mine ( divorced ) has tried online dating here many times.

He's a good looking, tall guy, tanned etc and one of the first questions asked by Irish women is are you Irish!

When he replies No, conversation stops!

This has happened more than a dozen times.

Irish men on the other hand are not racist imo.

Dial Hard

Y2KBOS86 wrote: »

I have.

Polish friend of mine ( divorced ) has tried online dating here many times.

He's a good looking, tall guy, tanned etc and one of the first questions asked by Irish women is are you Irish!

When he replies No, conversation stops!

This has happened more than a dozen times.

Irish men on the other hand are not racist imo.

There are lots of valid cultural reasons, usually to do with gender roles, why an Irish woman might prefer not to date certain nationalities or religions.

And those reasons often apply directly conversely to make women of those nationalities/religions more attractive to an Irish man.

Daveysil15

Y2KBOS86 wrote: »

I have.

Polish friend of mine ( divorced ) has tried online dating here many times.

He's a good looking, tall guy, tanned etc and one of the first questions asked by Irish women is are you Irish!

When he replies No, conversation stops!

This has happened more than a dozen times.

Irish men on the other hand are not racist imo.

It does seem to be more common for Irish men to date Polish women. You'd very rarely see an Irish woman with a Polish man but I don't think it has anything to do with Irish men been less racist. As Dial Hard said, its more to do with gender roles. Polish are more traditional and old fashioned in that regard.

Roquentin

Daveysil15 wrote: »

It does seem to be more common for Irish men to date Polish women. You'd very rarely see an Irish woman with a Polish man but I don't think it has anything to do with Irish men been less racist. As Dial Hard said, its more to do with gender roles. Polish are more traditional and old fashioned in that regard.

from an evolutionary psychology point of view, the female of the species tend to be selective with regards a potential mate. It was only the fittest or strongest or most colorful male that got the female.

People wont like me saying this, but this still plays out. But instead of strength, money/class/education have come into the frame.

The whole thing with polish men, mirrors in principle why thai women fall madly in love with western men. Thai women see western men as successful and thus worthy.

Polish men because they are coming from a poorer country economically are not deemed as desirable by irish women as lets say american men or uk men. Is there any difference between polish and american men in terms of personality? No. The difference is socio economic.

I wish it wasnt that way, but it is. People label. People divide people into different groups. Its a consequence of language.

Daveysil15

Roquentin wrote: »

from an evolutionary psychology point of view, the female of the species tend to be selective with regards a potential mate. It was only the fittest or strongest or most colorful male that got the female.

People wont like me saying this, but this still plays out. But instead of strength, money/class/education have come into the frame.

The whole thing with polish men, mirrors in principle why thai women fall madly in love with western men. Thai women see western men as successful and thus worthy.

Polish men because they are coming from a poorer country economically are not deemed as desirable by irish women as lets say american men or uk men. Is there any difference between polish and american men in terms of personality? No. The difference is socio economic.

I wish it wasnt that way, but it is. People label. People divide people into different groups. Its a consequence of language.

I dunno, I don't think the Thai women and western men dynamic is a fair comparison tbh. That's a lot more to do with wealth and status. I think its mainly the old fashioned gender roles that I mentioned. I see a lot of Irish couples where the women are wearing the trousers. That's not going to happen where there's a Polish man is involved, and I think that's why you don't see as many Irish women with Polish men.

Roquentin

Daveysil15 wrote: »

I dunno, I don't think the Thai women and western men dynamic is a fair comparison tbh. That's a lot more to do with wealth and status. I think its mainly the old fashioned gender roles that I mentioned. I see a lot of Irish couples where the women are wearing the trousers. That's not going to happen where there's a Polish man is involved, and I think that's why you don't see as many Irish women with Polish men.

so what you are saying is that either irish men are passive or irish women are more dominant. I dont think so. Personality wise there is very little difference between american, uk, european people. Ive worked with polish, americans, english, germans. We all shared the same sense of humor and so on.

So what is different IMO that makes lets say an irish woman choose statistically a western european or north american partner. The irish woman like the american woman is both consciously and unconsciously aware of her status. for example she is irish, middle to upper class, educated, smart and good looking. Because she is aware of this consciously in herself, she automatically makes a almost biased decision of what she will deem acceptable as a potential partner for her. so she will look for a partner who she deems as socially acceptable for her given her status.

This is the reason why you rarely see a professional woman go off a minimum wage man. But the reverse does happen, because men look for different things in a woman, namely good looks.

You have to factor in that polish are sterotyped as being minimum wage workers in ireland. To the professional woman that is a step down. we all want to feel good about ourselves and that is a flaw in our psyche. So a man who finds a good looking woman feels good and a woman who finds a suitable partner feels good. Unfortunately we make decisions on this emotion, rather than friendship.

Daveysil15

Roquentin wrote: »

so what you are saying is that either irish men are passive or irish women are more dominant. I dont think so. Personality wise there is very little difference between american, uk, european people. Ive worked with polish, americans, english, germans. We all shared the same sense of humor and so on.

So what is different IMO that makes lets say an irish woman choose statistically a western european or north american partner. The irish woman like the american woman is both consciously and unconsciously aware of her status. for example she is irish, middle to upper class, educated, smart and good looking. Because she is aware of this consciously in herself, she automatically makes a almost biased decision of what she will deem acceptable as a potential partner for her. so she will look for a partner who she deems as socially acceptable for her given her status.

This is the reason why you rarely see a professional woman go off a minimum wage man. But the reverse does happen, because men look for different things in a woman, namely good looks.

You have to factor in that polish are sterotyped as being minimum wage workers in ireland. To the professional woman that is a step down. we all want to feel good about ourselves and that is a flaw in our psyche. So a man who finds a good looking woman feels good and a woman who finds a suitable partner feels good. Unfortunately we make decisions on this emotion, rather than friendship.

Not all of them obviously but I have seen it a lot. And the Irish women I've spoken to about this said that is the main reason why they wouldn't go for a Polish man.

Not all Irish women are middle class professionals either. Personality wise there isn't much of a difference between nationalities, but I still think its down to the gender roles more so than socio-economic status. Just my opinion from my own observations and the women I've spoken to about it.

beano345

Roquentin wrote: »

so what you are saying is that either irish men are passive or irish women are more dominant. I dont think so. Personality wise there is very little difference between american, uk, european people. Ive worked with polish, americans, english, germans. We all shared the same sense of humor and so on.

So what is different IMO that makes lets say an irish woman choose statistically a western european or north american partner. The irish woman like the american woman is both consciously and unconsciously aware of her status. for example she is irish, middle to upper class, educated, smart and good looking. Because she is aware of this consciously in herself, she automatically makes a almost biased decision of what she will deem acceptable as a potential partner for her. so she will look for a partner who she deems as socially acceptable for her given her status.

This is the reason why you rarely see a professional woman go off a minimum wage man. But the reverse does happen, because men look for different things in a woman, namely good looks.

You have to factor in that polish are sterotyped as being minimum wage workers in ireland. To the professional woman that is a step down. we all want to feel good about ourselves and that is a flaw in our psyche. So a man who finds a good looking woman feels good and a woman who finds a suitable partner feels good. Unfortunately we make decisions on this emotion, rather than friendship.

Reminds me of this

http://www.laddertheory.com/foundations.htm

ancapailldorcha

Daveysil15 wrote: »

It does seem to be more common for Irish men to date Polish women. You'd very rarely see an Irish woman with a Polish man but I don't think it has anything to do with Irish men been less racist. As Dial Hard said, its more to do with gender roles. Polish are more traditional and old fashioned in that regard.

I think this is right. I have a mate who dated a Polish girl at one point. She had a Degree, a Masters and a full time job and she did all the cleaning and cooking while they were together. He told me she was very impressed when he cooked for her once. Obviously, that's just an anecdote but I've heard similar tales from time to time.

Bafucin

beano345 wrote: »

Reminds me of this

http://www.laddertheory.com/foundations.htm

If you post pictures of pie I would prefer apple and with custard.

beano345

Bafucin wrote: »

If you post pictures of pie I would prefer apple and with custard.

I'm sure you would

Bafucin

beano345 wrote: »

I'm sure you would

Thank you.

beks101

For me it would have less to do with 'what he does for a living' etc and more to do with emotional compatibility.

Most of my relationships have been with either American or Canadian men for that reason. I've spent a good bit of time over there and found I got used to their directness and the simplicity and straight-forward way they express themselves emotionally. I'd tend to be the same most of the time, heart on my sleeve, quite emotionally-driven and open, and always found that a lot easier to come to grips with than a lot of Irish men, who I'd spend most of my time second guessing, 'is he/isn't he interested?' 'What's he thinking?' 'Why don't I feel comfortable saying certain things around him?'

I'm quite career driven so usually have ended up with guys who are quite passionate about what they do, but I'm not talking doctors and lawyers here. Just someone who gives a sh1t about the 9-5 part of his life, and that's come in various different packages over the years. Again, that would be a personality trait as opposed to a 'socio-economic' reason to get with someone, which sounds about as romantic as a bullet to the head.

Potatoeman

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think this is right. I have a mate who dated a Polish girl at one point. She had a Degree, a Masters and a full time job and she did all the cleaning and cooking while they were together. He told me she was very impressed when he cooked for her once. Obviously, that's just an anecdote but I've heard similar tales from time to time.

Most Eastern Europeans I have intereacted are into traditional gender roles. Irish people are more relaxed in their efforts and expectations. Irish guys do well as we are seen as less controling.

Roquentin

the gist of what im getting is that irish women turn down the foreign men because they want more control. Ok. But why do irish women want more control and the polish women lets say dont? What has happened in the last lets say twenty years in ireland to cause a radical shift?

What has happened is ireland has become more prosperous as a nation and sub consciously this does have an effect in what people demand with regards standard. The more one achieves in life, statistically the higher their standards become. So now more than ever women have become more independent in ireland. They have more control in their lives and are not as dependent on men as a pose to years ago.

You may say the reason is lack of traditional gender roles and ok i agree with you. But im saying the reason it is lack of gender roles is because the latest generation of irish women have grown up in the celtic tiger and are now more independent than ever. The reason they want to maintain control is because they have it and the reason they have control is not the personality or because they are "irish". The reason is socio-economic. They have grown up in a thriving economy (well was thriving before 2007) and this coupled with the fact that she is irish, has wealth, good job does play a part sub consciously in her decision making.

One must not doubt the power of the sub conscious in decision making. Adverts work through sub conscious manipulation. It can influence the conscious part of your mind. So when a person is deciding who to choose, they may only consciously think about age or education lets say, but sub consciously they are taking every single thing they know about that person and using it to influence the conscious decision.

The reason eastern european women exercise less control is because they have less dependence and live in poorer countries. And yes in agreement with the gaf, the reason the irish woman would choose an irish man over a polish man is maintain control. But i would also stress that the difference between socio-economic cultures does play a part sub consciously in her decision making, a tiny bit.

I know it doesnt sound romantic, but people do have a mental check list of what they look for in a partner. And you have two of them, a conscious one and a sub conscious one and both those check lists work in tandem to give you a decision.

pwurple

Completely overthinking it guys... I stopped dating guys from countries where the primary language wasn't english, because we spoke different languages!

Communication in a relationship can be tricky enough without throwing in a language barrier as well.

Roquentin

pwurple wrote: »

Completely overthinking it guys... I stopped dating guys from countries where the primary language wasn't english, because we spoke different languages!

Communication in a relationship can be tricky enough without throwing in a language barrier as well.

"A good marriage would be between a blind wife and a deaf husband."
Michel de Montaigne