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Is it self defeatist to say that some men are meant to be alone??‏

SharpshooterTom

I'm just beginning to wonder about this because I've recently turned 28 (so I'm not exactly a kid anymore) and I've never been in a relationship, never kissed a girl, and and yes not surprisingly I'm still a virgin LOL. And whats more depressing is that I've never been remotely close in actually having any of those experiences!

If I am being hoenst I've been plagued with all sorts of social problems throughout my teenage years and adult life, social anxiety (putting people off me as if I smell of B.O.) which lead to me socially avoiding people (I felt I was so unappealing to people I felt I had no choice) and so a viscous cycle had then ensured. This continued throughout school and university to the point where I snapped and fell into deep depression and few years back (extremely low self esteem) I attempted suicide.

I got help though with therapy and CBT (I used to post in the depression thread in AH and people there were a great help!), so I'm ok now, I'm improving aspects of my life. But I've still not yet improved aspects of my social life greatly in any real way. Sure I'm not as socially anxious, and certainly not socially avoidant, but I still don't have any real friends. I get the impression I'm just not that appealing as a person and perhaps its the way its meant to be.

I mean in the 40 year old virgin, he at least he had a happy ending, unless I went to an escort, there's every chance I'm probably going to die this way! :eek:

Is it too self defeatist to suggest that some men, whether they like it or not, are destined to be alone for the rest of their lives? Is it too unrealistic for some us to contemplate a relationship?

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ongarboy

Very interesting observations from Macplato that hit the nail on head for a lot of what I see too. I wonder is a lot of how the Irish act in such matters down to an inferiority complex combined with historic Catholic guilt. Anything remotely sexual puts people on guard instead of acting naturally and if there isn't reciprocation, the sense of rejection, embarrassment and anger would only affect someone who wasn't confident or comfortable in their own skin to begin with?

I do see some non nationals in Ireland being far more forward in paying compliments and flirting that come across natural but if an ill at ease Irish guy said the same to a girl, it would come across pervy. Example, in Dunnes the other day and the guy in front of me was of Mediteranean region origin (I think) and he told the checkout girl (who happened ot be of African origin and was beautiful) that she had the most beautiful face he had ever seen (sure he was lacing it with charm and flirt) but she just laughed and while it was unusual to witness, it did not seem odd. If John from Tullamore was in front of me and he said the same thing to Deirdre the checkout girl from Blanchardstown, it would just come across comical at best or creepy at worst.

It's no-ones fault as I think we are all products of our environment but if we are aware of what is not working for us, then there is no excuse to not change.

macplato

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't get how that's an Irish thing. I would think that that attitude would be fairly ubiquitous among people who fancy someone for more than a quick tumble. It's fairly horrible to tell someone you fancy them when they don't feel the same way. Logically it makes sense as there's no point devoting time to that relationship in the hope that might become more but that doesn't take away from the embarrassment of being rejected.

See, I grew up outside of Ireland, and due to work I lived long term (5 months, up to a few years) in a few different countries, and Ireland is the only place where I've experienced these types of issues.

If I fancy someone, and I let them know about it, and they are not responsive to it, I sure will feel disappointed - but horrible, embarrassed and rejected? No way! Not even close. Rejection doesn't even come into play at this stage for me. Sure, if I waited weeks or months to let someone know that I fancy them, and in the meantime I'd get emotionally invested, of course I'd feel rejected. But very early on, when I just enjoy looking at someone and chatting to them and I start having some sexy fantasies about them - I don't know much about that person, so I really don't expect anything from them. If they are not interested, too bad - why would I feel rejected?

In other countries (in my experience), people just show it to each other, when they fancy one another. They smile at each other differently, look at each other differently, talk to each other differently - there is no need for intimate, risky disclosures - it comes out naturally. In Ireland, on average, I tend to find out after about 6 months of regular contact, that a guy is interested in me - even if I already made it clear at the start that I fancied them. It usually comes out in a somewhat awkward conversation, when the guy, after a few glasses of wine, tells me "I fancied you from the start" (which results in a complete bewilderment and confusion on my part). Why does it have to be so heavy and risky - it really isn't like that in other countries, I never experienced anything similar anywhere else.

This idea of not making a move for fear of being seen as sleazy or creepy. What's that about? Never heard that outside of Ireland, either. I guess this is the reason why men don't tend to go for it when I first give them the green light - but when they finally do gather the courage, months later, it's usually too late, because normally I will have moved on. It's sad and frustrating. The dynamics between men and women are really very different in other countries.

Don't get me wrong, I do have positive experiences with Irish men, too. But the initial stages of getting to know someone you fancy, in my experience, are nowhere near as fun, effortless and risk-free here, comparing to elsewhere in Europe (not to mention the States!).

Dial Hard

Mike747 wrote: »

No harm being a little cynical though.

I'm about as cynical as you can get about love, having been through a horrific marriage break-up.

There's a huge difference between being cynical and writing off an entire gender based on a few bad experiences.

Mike747

Dial Hard wrote: »

I find it extremely depressing that someone could be so disillusioned with the entire process that he identifies with Chris Brown's opinion of women.

No harm being a little cynical though.

Dial Hard

Mike747 wrote: »

Depressing how? I think its been interesting.

I find it extremely depressing that someone could be so disillusioned with the entire process that he identifies with Chris Brown's opinion of women.

Mike747

Dial Hard wrote: »

+1,000,000

I didn't think this thread could get any more depressing, but it just managed to.

Depressing how? I think its been interesting.

Dial Hard

Business Cat wrote: »

You think that anything Chris Brown said about women, this the charming bloke that slapped around his girlfriend, has any credence whatsoever?

Jesus wept.

You really need help buddy, seriously, you are beyond deluded.

Wibbs wrote: »

+1 if Brown told me the sky was blue I'd double check.

+1,000,000

I didn't think this thread could get any more depressing, but it just managed to.

ancapailldorcha

macplato wrote: »

The problem is that many (most?) Irish people are very slow to openly, joyously admit that they fancy someone. It's never just an information, like for many other nationalities. For some reason there is a lot of shame and embarrassment attached to sexual desire in this country, and it really messes up the dynamics between men and women here.

I don't get how that's an Irish thing. I would think that that attitude would be fairly ubiquitous among people who fancy someone for more than a quick tumble. It's fairly horrible to tell someone you fancy them when they don't feel the same way. Logically it makes sense as there's no point devoting time to that relationship in the hope that might become more but that doesn't take away from the embarrassment of being rejected.

Potatoeman

In pubs/clubs you need wit and charm. You need to stand out and be fun. It can be pretty though and you have to be in the right mindset to be on your game.
I dont think they are great places to meet someone. The atmosphere can be defensive and you can have a short window to make an impression.

Wibbs

Business Cat wrote: »

You think that anything Chris Brown said about women, this the charming bloke that slapped around his girlfriend, has any credence whatsoever?

+1 if Brown told me the sky was blue I'd double check.

Liam McPoyle

You think that anything Chris Brown said about women, this the charming bloke that slapped around his girlfriend, has any credence whatsoever?

Jesus wept.

You really need help buddy, seriously, you are beyond deluded.

EdenHazard

I'm pretty much screwed, Im way better looking than average, especially in Ireland(just being realistic) and I've had a few experiences with girls but every time I tend push a very non sexual emotional type relationship. My sexual confidence is pretty low and my guess is the girls got bored......had sex with one of them, the next day she went completely cold......lol pretty good for the self esteem. But yeah I'm screwed. I know girls will crush on me but it's getting to the stage where I don't care about that anymore. That instance with the girl going completely cold was a real shock to the system. My saving grace is my looks(thank u mama and papa) if I had this personality and wasn't good looking, oh hello 40 year virgin. Not to get into it(coz boards will slate you for anything) but my opinion on girls is pretty low atm. Chris Brown said it best....they ain't loyal.

paddy1990

Wibbs wrote: »

He discovered/is admitting he's lacking in all three mayhap? Yea seems like a bit of a turnaround alright.

Oh BTW "leagues" do exist. Hate to break it to some - both those how buy into the PUA BS and those who bought into Hollywood - but there it is. Looks and money are a part of that, but I have found access is most of it. Looks and money gain more access to "higher" leagues, but access itself is what it's all about. IE the plainest fashion photographers assistant will get more interaction and action from fashion models than the better looking dude in some local nightclub. If that's what you're after of course. In reality I have found most men aren't that into that vibe, though may say they are.

Access = Status.

Status > Looks, I agree.

Within reason.

macplato

audi12 wrote: »

if he becomes friends first with her he will get stuck in friendzone and never have a chance with her

All my long term relationships, and I've been in a few, started with a friendship. The key is to be clear from the start that there is sexual attraction on both sides - once that's been established, it's possible to park that for a few months, and focus on developing the personal connection, while nurturing and playing with the prospect of a sexual relationship developing at some point in the future. It's never a good idea to invest your energy into developing a friendship with a girl you fancy, hoping for something more, if you don't know that she fancies you back.

The problem is that many (most?) Irish people are very slow to openly, joyously admit that they fancy someone. It's never just an information, like for many other nationalities. For some reason there is a lot of shame and embarrassment attached to sexual desire in this country, and it really messes up the dynamics between men and women here.

ancapailldorcha

audi12 wrote: »

Women like guys that are ugly and not fit because they can control them it was proven in studies done

Care to provide links to a few of these studies?

Roquentin

audi12 wrote: »

Women like guys that are ugly and not fit because they can control them it was proven in studies done

for marriage, your point has substance. They want a guy they can count on.

Roquentin

Wibbs wrote: »

Tickety boo if all you want is notches on your bedpost, but beyond that and into an actual relationship you will require something more and developing a good friendship is a damn good start.

Don't get me wrong I am fully behind the idea of going for the woman first. As I have often said in the word "girlfriend" the "friend" part comes secondary. but without that part it's going nowhere. If you both don't connect beyond the gender and nekkid bits it will get old real quickly. I don't care how sexy/gorgeous you think she is, without engaging on a personal level you will get tired of looking at and if I may be so crass, fúcking her.

Actually you can see that with married men who have affairs. Very often the women they're cheating on are confused/gobsmacked because the "other woman" is older/less goodlooking/sexy than they are. It's nearly always down to a better emotional connection they don't have with their primary partner.

you are a brave man for a mod ill give you that

Wibbs

audi12 wrote: »

who is taklking about friends hes looking for a woman not a friend

Tickety boo if all you want is notches on your bedpost, but beyond that and into an actual relationship you will require something more and developing a good friendship is a damn good start.

Don't get me wrong I am fully behind the idea of going for the woman first. As I have often said in the word "girlfriend" the "friend" part comes secondary. but without that part it's going nowhere. If you both don't connect beyond the gender and nekkid bits it will get old real quickly. I don't care how sexy/gorgeous you think she is, without engaging on a personal level you will get tired of looking at and if I may be so crass, fúcking her.

Actually you can see that with married men who have affairs. Very often the women they're cheating on are confused/gobsmacked because the "other woman" is older/less goodlooking/sexy than they are. It's nearly always down to a better emotional connection they don't have with their primary partner.

Roquentin

audi12 wrote: »

if he becomes friends first with her he will get stuck in friendzone and never have a chance with her

So.......no man gets every woman in life. whats the big deal about not getting a woman......take a trip to Amsterdam.....ring a few escorts

audi12

if he becomes friends first with her he will get stuck in friendzone and never have a chance with her

Wibbs

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What happened to your Looks, Money & Status philosophy?

He discovered/is admitting he's lacking in all three mayhap? Yea seems like a bit of a turnaround alright.

Oh BTW "leagues" do exist. Hate to break it to some - both those how buy into the PUA BS and those who bought into Hollywood - but there it is. Looks and money are a part of that, but I have found access is most of it. Looks and money gain more access to "higher" leagues, but access itself is what it's all about. IE the plainest fashion photographers assistant will get more interaction and action from fashion models than the better looking dude in some local nightclub. If that's what you're after of course. In reality I have found most men aren't that into that vibe, though may say they are.

Roquentin

audi12 wrote: »

who is taklking about friends hes looking for a woman not a friend

the marriage that survives is built out of a good friendship, not looks or materialism

audi12

who is taklking about friends hes looking for a woman not a friend

Roquentin

audi12 wrote: »

what is that supposed to mean

exactly what it says

audi12

Roquentin wrote: »

the only way to have a friend is to be one---ralph waldo emerson

what is that supposed to mean

Roquentin

the only way to have a friend is to be one---ralph waldo emerson

audi12

macplato wrote: »

It's absolutely true - some women choose men who they consider somewhat beneath them, so they can effectively control them (and of course men do that as well). More often than not, this doesn't happen consciously - it's an entirely instinctive strategy designed to protect the person's insecure self. We all have and use those unconscious strategies, both men and women - the more positive experiences a person has had in life, the healthier, more functional strategy they tend to develop.

Many men (and women of course), who have problems with intimacy, adopt an inner strategy that makes it impossible for them to make a meaningful connection with a person of the opposite sex. Psychologically, it's just more bearable to not have an opportunity to be intimate with someone, than to be in an intimate situation and feel this excruciating emotional pain of being touched by another human being - of being open, exposed and vulnerable. Some people can't cope with that, and so they avoid facing their own 'issues' by blaming the 'evil, controlling bitches' or 'selfish, self-centered male chauvinistic pigs' for the lack of intimacy in their lives.

The truth is, if someone is consistently unable to make a meaningful connection with people of the opposite sex - the problem lies somewhere inside of that person, and so does the solution. This world is full of healthy, lovely men and women, but the only way to have those people in our lives, to even notice their existence, is to become healthy and lovely ourselves. There is no other way, because we gravitate towards each other at our common level of emotional damage. Messed up people attract messed up people. Healthy people attract healthy people. It's really that simple.

Agree with a lot of that like attracts like you see that everywhere you go

macplato

audi12 wrote: »

Point taken i am not trying to provoke a reaction just giving a view

It's absolutely true - some women choose men who they consider somewhat beneath them, so they can effectively control them (and of course men do that as well). More often than not, this doesn't happen consciously - it's an entirely instinctive strategy designed to protect the person's insecure self. We all have and use those unconscious strategies, both men and women - the more positive experiences a person has had in life, the healthier, more functional strategy they tend to develop.

Many men (and women of course), who have problems with intimacy, adopt an inner strategy that makes it impossible for them to make a meaningful connection with a person of the opposite sex. Psychologically, it's just more bearable to not have an opportunity to be intimate with someone, than to be in an intimate situation and feel this excruciating emotional pain of being touched by another human being - of being open, exposed and vulnerable. Some people can't cope with that, and so they avoid facing their own 'issues' by blaming the 'evil, controlling bitches' or 'selfish, self-centered male chauvinistic pigs' for the lack of intimacy in their lives.

The truth is, if someone is consistently unable to make a meaningful connection with people of the opposite sex - the problem lies somewhere inside of that person, and so does the solution. This world is full of healthy, lovely men and women, but the only way to have those people in our lives, to even notice their existence, is to become healthy and lovely ourselves. There is no other way, because we gravitate towards each other at our common level of emotional damage. Messed up people attract messed up people. Healthy people attract healthy people. It's really that simple.

audi12

macplato wrote: »

Well, you said "women" - that suggests that you are thinking "all women". Otherwise you'd specify, and said "women, who...", or you'd say "according to studies, such and such percentage of women...". You know, so people can actually engage in a sensical conversation with you, because by the way you are phrasing your thoughts, it seems that you're just trying to provoke a reaction, which you will later aggressively dismiss.

Point taken i am not trying to provoke a reaction just giving a view

macplato

audi12 wrote: »

As you know i was not referring to every single woman in the planet so i really do not see the need for you to ask a question when you already know the answer

Well, you said "women" - that suggests that you are thinking "all women". Otherwise you'd specify, and said "women, who...", or you'd say "according to studies, such and such percentage of women...". You know, so people can actually engage in a sensical conversation with you, because by the way you are phrasing your thoughts, it seems that you're just trying to provoke a reaction, which you will later aggressively dismiss.