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How to drop your crime rate 20% - issue gun permits to residents

MadsL

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/24/chicago-crime-rate-drops-as-concealed-carry-gun-pe/

Illinois used to have a ban on private handgun carrying, and Chicago required the registration of all firearms but did not allow handguns to be registered, however following a Supreme Court decision, Illinois enacted the Firearm Concealed Carry Act and private registrations are on track to ht 100,000 by the end of the year.

Whilst correlation is not causation, Reports of burglary and motor vehicle theft are down 20 percent and 26 percent, respectively. In the first quarter, the city’s homicide rate was at a 56-year low.

Time to rethink Ireland's gun laws?

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Witcher

DS86 wrote: »

If somebody was desperate enough to break into a home to steal items such as those in order to say feed a drug habit, and they were aware that a homeowner was armed against intruders, then simple logic would dictate that of course they'd come to a house armed.

Or if they had access to firearm...they might say...rob a shop or a post office etc. and get some real money and not risk being shot for the 40 quid dvd player?

Nino Brown

Ralphdejones wrote: »

If you wake up in the middle of the night and three tooled up, drugged up, scumbags are downstairs robbing, you might get one of them with a gun if you are very lucky, but the other two will easily overpower you. Scubags have no fear of ordinary joe soaps with a gun. People have been watching too many movies again.

So every house should have a gun ? Which means the scum bags that are robbing homes in the first place will also have them. Great solution to crime all right.

Not exactly how it played out here...nobody charging down the homeowner!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0

MadsL

My name is URL wrote: »

Conclusive or not as it may be, bear in mind that they can only extrapolate data from their own study of one city before saying 'whether guns are protective or perilous' overall as far as general personal safety goes.

They did however find a clear correlation between carrying a gun and an increased risk of getting shot.

Other similar studies exist too and most show the same thing. I think I've linked you to a few in the past whenever this very same topic was being discussed.

By that logic we should disarm American police....wait, given recent events you may be onto something

DS86

Nino Brown wrote: »

Or they'd stay the feck away from my house and go rob yours, much easier!

Hypothetically, I could be armed too. Hypothetically anybody in a society with gun ownership could be armed in their own homes, hence why burglars would arm themselves in case of been confronted by a hypothetical home owner with a gun pointed at them.

end of the road

Nino Brown wrote: »

So if somebody wants to rob your TV, they'll get a firearm, and risk being killed, or doing life in prison? I don't think so, burglars aren't idiots, they understand risk-reward.

if they want to break in badly enough, then they will

Ralphdejones

Nino Brown wrote: »

Not exactly how it played out here...

The USA again ?
So exceptional a result, they had to put it on the news in a country over run with property crime and guns.
All the wanna be Rambos should move there so, and enjoy the USA crime levels that go with the guns they crave so much.

wicklowstevo

hey im all for it as long as no one moans about the hundreds of accidental shooting per year .

its like the issue of fire arms to gardai (which im aginest btw) ,if its done then there will be mistakes made as there is in every county
im afraid irish people just dont have the follow through and we are far to reactionary for such a move

Nino Brown

DS86 wrote: »

Hypothetically, I could be armed too. Hypothetically anybody in a society with gun ownership could be armed in their own homes, hence why burglars would arm themselves in case of been confronted by a hypothetical home owner with a gun pointed at them.

Again, we do live in a society with gun ownership, yet all these hypothetical problems have not developed.

Witcher

wicklowstevo wrote: »

hey im all for it as long as no one moans about the hundreds of accidental shooting per year .

its like the issue of fire arms to gardai (which im aginest btw) ,if its done then there will be mistakes made as there is in every county
im afraid irish people just dont have the follow through and we are far to reactionary for such a move

Yeah..loads of accidental shootings atm..180,000+ firearms and non stop accidents.

Nino Brown

Ralphdejones wrote: »

The USA again ?
So exceptional a result, they had to put it on the news in a country over run with property crime and guns.
All the wanna be Rambos should move there so, and enjoy the USA crime levels that go with the guns they crave so much.

You came up with that exaggerated situation, I just provided an example of how burglars tend to react to being shot at, can you show me one example of burglars being shot at and deciding to charge down the gun? Ever? In any country?

DS86

Blay wrote: »

Or if they had access to firearm...they might say...rob a shop or a post office etc. and get some real money and not risk being shot for the 40 quid dvd player?

Houses are easy pickings in comparison to businesses, e.g. (a) no shutters, (b) no CCTV as in shops or in surrounding streets, (c) potential for been confronted by passers by, (d) potential for having the police alerted by passers by, (e) police stations are usually closer to business districts than homes, (f) greater likelihood of been found out through CCTV footage, local witnesses etc.

Your average home has doors that can be easily picked, glass windows that can easily be broken into, quite and relatively dark streets in comparison to a business district, less likelihood of been spotted, 99% unlikely of CCTV footage been captured etc etc etc.

And no of course they wouldn't just be breaking in to rob the DVD player, they'd rob anything they could get their hands on obviously.

wicklowstevo

Blay wrote: »

Yeah..loads of accidental shootings atm..180,000+ firearms and non stop accidents.

aw ffs there a big difference between licensed tightly controlled rifles and shotguns and concealed hand guns . every fist fight on a satuarday nght would turn into a blood bath

Nino Brown

wicklowstevo wrote: »

aw ffs there a big difference between licensed tightly controlled rifles and shotguns and concealed hand guns . every fist fight on a satuarday nght would turn into a blood bath

I don't think anybody is advocating that, nobody thinks US gun laws are the way to go, but we have some of the tightest gun laws in the world. There are many EU countries with much looser gun laws than ours who don't have the problems being suggested here. We do have scope to loosen ours slightly.

Witcher

wicklowstevo wrote: »

aw ffs there a big difference between licensed tightly controlled rifles and shotguns and concealed hand guns . every fist fight on a satuarday nght would turn into a blood bath

Is there any reason the 'concealed hand guns' wouldn't be tightly controlled too?

I think Madsl is suggesting that people who go through the current system might be allowed to have them for self defence, which is not allowed currently.

I don't think he's suggesting you could just buy a firearm over the counter no questions asked with your 20 John Player Blue.

Ralphdejones

Nino Brown wrote: »

You came up with that exaggerated situation, I just provided an example of how burglars tend to react to being shot at, can you show me one example of burglars being shot at and deciding to charge down the gun? Ever? In any country?

You want me to post a news video of a USA property with a gun in it being robbed ?
It's so common they don't put it on the news, that's the point.

MadsL

Blay wrote: »

Is there any reason the 'concealed hand guns' wouldn't be tightly controlled too?

I think Madsl is suggesting that people who go through the current system might be allowed to have them for self defence, which is not allowed currently.

I don't think he's suggesting you could just buy a firearm over the counter no questions asked with your 20 John Player Blue.

You would be correct.

Nino Brown

I wouldn't even advocate concealed hand guns to be honest, in my experience it provides nothing more than a false sense of security.
I'd leave it at shoguns for home self defense for now, baby steps! No rifles or handguns for self defense.

Nino Brown

Ralphdejones wrote: »

You want me to post a news video of a USA property with a gun in it being robbed ?
It's so common they don't put it on the news, that's the point.

So somebody who was going to be robbed anyway got robbed, so what? My point is having a gun gives the homeowner the ability to defend themselves, even if they choose not to use it, which will more often than not, be the right thing to do.

wicklowstevo

Nino Brown wrote: »

I don't think anybody is advocating that, nobody thinks US gun laws are the way to go, but we have some of the tightest gun laws in the world. There are many EU countries with much looser gun laws than ours who don't have the problems being suggested here. We do have scope to loosen ours slightly.

i agree with you to some extent . i have two firearms myself a rifle and shotgun , ideally i would also have a 9 mm breatta however i am not able to get a licence for such.
however if as a responsible member of civil society i would be granted permission to own one whats to stop mad johnny down the road from getting one , (yes the gardai can veto gun ownership but there is always appeals through the courts , and i think we all know how unpredictable those old folks are)

Ralphdejones

Nino Brown wrote: »

So somebody who was going to be robbed anyway got robbed, so what? My point is having a gun gives the homeowner the ability to defend themselves, even if they choose not to use it, which will more often than not, be the right thing to do.

Rather it gives them delusion that they can defend themselves.

Most robberies around here are creeper burgalries, 3 or 4 drugged up 20 year olds with a car, armed with knives and crowbars. They take the goods and leave. If you are unlucky enough to wake up in the middle of the night, and mange to get to your gun and load it, and go down stairs to challenge them, waving a gun about is not going to protect you, in fact waving it around is going to mean you have to be taken out, and as a bonus they get a gun and ammo to rob as well. Only last week, as well as other goods, two shotguns and a rifle were stolen from a neighbours house up the road. Now the scum have them. Jail time is a holiday to such people, prison is only a deterrent to honest people. You haven't a clue, you might get one or two shots off at best, after that you will be overpowered and you are toast.

seamus

At the end of the day neither the Irish nor Americans live in a society which is statistically dangerous enough to warrant having a weapon for self-defence.

This is why having a weapon for no other purpose than defending yourself makes you a dangerous nut job.

Nino Brown

wicklowstevo wrote: »

i agree with you to some extent . i have two firearms myself a rifle and shotgun , ideally i would also have a 9 mm breatta however i am not able to get a licence for such.
however if as a responsible member of civil society i would be granted permission to own one whats to stop mad johnny down the road from getting one , (yes the gardai can veto gun ownership but there is always appeals through the courts , and i think we all know how unpredictable those old folks are)

I used to have a 9mm beretta, a PX4, but for self defense I'd go with the shotgun every time.
I agree, we don't need looser handgun restrictions, they are too easily concealed, and can can do too much damage.
But allowing shotguns to be licensed for self defense make a lot of sense to me.

marieholmfan

In an armed society the government fears the people.

Nino Brown

Ralphdejones wrote: »

Rather it gives them delusion that they can defend themselves.

Most robberies around here are creeper burgalries, 3 or 4 drugged up 20 year olds with a car, armed with knives and crowbars. They take the goods and leave. If you are unlucky enough to wake up in the middle of the night, and mange to get to your gun and load it, and go down stairs to challenge them, waving a gun about is not going to protect you, in fact waving it around is going to mean you have to be taken out, and as a bonus they get a gun and ammo to rob as well. Only last week, as well as other goods, two shotguns and a rifle were stolen from a neighbours house up the road. Now the scum have them. Jail time is a holiday to such people, prison is only a deterrent to honest people. You haven't a clue, you might get one or two shots off at best, after that you will be overpowered and you are toast.

So they just charge down the gun again? You must have a rare breed of burglars in your area! Any example yet of that happening?, because i have hundreds of examples of homeowners defending their property with guns, not once was the gun charged down, and stolen.

Ralphdejones

Nino Brown wrote: »

So they just charge down the gun again? You must have a rare breed of burglars in your area! Any example yet of that happening?, because i have hundreds of examples of homeowners defending their property with guns, not once was the gun charged down, and stolen.

In close quarters in a house, it's extremely easy for two or three drugged up 20 year olds armed with knives and hammers at a minimum, as they usually are, to overpower one person with a gun.

Nino Brown

Ralphdejones wrote: »

In close quarters in a house, it's extremely easy for two or three armed people armed with knives and bats, as they usually are, to overpower one person with a gun.

So there will be plenty of examples then?

Search for homeowner shoots intruder, and show me the one where the intruders charge down a gun.

Ralphdejones

Nino Brown wrote: »

So there will be plenty of examples then?

Search for homeowner shoots intruder, and show me the one where the intruders charge down a gun.

Well thank fully we don't have guns in every house in Ireland, so the rambo's get to jerk off over them.

LeinsterDub

marieholmfan wrote: »

In an armed society the government fears the people.

Yeah pure fear on the face of those cops in Charlotte in their riot gear and tanks

Ralphdejones

The solution is to give very few people access to firearms, or effectively everyone access to guns as per the USA, and then let everyone shoot it out. Compare the USA's crime rate to Canda's if you want to know the result.

marieholmfan

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yeah pure fear on the face of those cops in Charlotte in their riot gear and tanks

The people of Charlotte just need bigger guns. This is why the NRA campaigns for the right to own rocket launchers and machine guns. I'd love a rocket launcher.