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The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

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Toblerone1978

Hi all

This is a really good thread with some great advice in it, thanks for all who contributed. I’m doing the DCM this year and hoping to crack 3 hours too. My 10 mile time today and my marathon time in Waterford aren’t great but I done Vienna marathon in 3.05.23 so I suppose this is the next logical step! I definitely wouldn’t base it of my times but anyway.

So I learned a few things from this thread, one being that my mileage is too low so I’m moving from P&D 12 wk plan for up to 55 mi to P&D 12 wk plan for 55 to 70mi – it’s probably a bit late but nothing can be done about it at this stage. I’ll be doing it gradually so hopefully the body will be able to handle the extra mileage.

The other thing that stands out to me from this thread is that the LSR are probably lacking a bit of a kick so I was going to change my LSR to the following:
Week 8: Long run 20 mi w/ 8 mi at PMP
Week 7: Long run 22 mi w/ 8 mi at PMP
Week 6: Athlone 1/2 marathon
Week 5: Long run 22 mi w/ 10 mi at PMP
Week 4: Long run 18 mi
Week 3: Long run 22 mi w/ 12 mi at PMP
Week 2: Long run 17 mi
Week 1: Medium long run 13 mi

For the rest of the week, I’ll be largely following P&D plans. I’d appreciate some people’s opinion on my suggested long runs.

The other thing that has not been mentioned on this thread and that I was surprised by is core work. I’m not doing a whole lot myself, normally a kettlebell class and a pilate class most week.

ThePiedPiper

That looks like a very decent plan of long runs, if you can keep to that, you'd be in with a good shout. I'd suggest using 6:45 as pmp, 6:50 won't cut it.

PaulieYifter

Well lads - job finally done today in Longford - 2:58:06

ThebitterLemon

PaulieYifter wrote: »

Well lads - job finally done today in Longford - 2:58:06

Well done PaulieY, you were looking very strong when I saw you.

TbL

PaulieYifter

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Well done PaulieY, you were looking very strong when I saw you.

TbL

Probably looked a bit different a couple of hours later - hope you got on well yourself

ploughon

Well done PaulieYifter, great running.

Toblerone 1978,
good luck with your training and with the 3.05 already in the bag you dont have that far to go.
On the core work out part of your question...by chance I was listening to a marathon talk podcast today and they mentioned this "30 day challenge" from a crowd called Kinetic Revolution (I dont have any ties with Marathon Talk or Kenetic Revolution by the way!!).
Basicaly you can sign up for a free 30 day training, downloaded in short video clips, focusing on; balance and mobility, strength and core training and plyometrics. I am going to give it a go, I've been looking for something to put a bit of structure around S&C work for me, as I'm very hit and miss with it, so I'll give it a go.

Best of luck

career move

PaulieYifter wrote: »

Well lads - job finally done today in Longford - 2:58:06

Fantastic. Well done. Nice to see all that hill running being put to good use

Toblerone1978

PaulieYifter wrote: »

Well lads - job finally done today in Longford - 2:58:06

Well done, great box to tick!. Race report please :-)

Bahanaman

PaulieYifter wrote: »

Well lads - job finally done today in Longford - 2:58:06

Congrats! Lovely feeling I'd say. Thought I had it meself in Waterford but that's another story! A few well deserved beverages tonight I'd say!

ooter

I'd appreciate a bit of advice/input on my situation if possible?
Made my marathon debut at DCM last year,3:25.before doing the programme for that (HH novice 1) my weekly mileage would've only been about 15 (3 x 5).
I've kept the running going since DCM and gradually built my weekly mileage up in to the 30's before starting the p+d up to 55 mile plan for DCM.
For the first 5 weeks of the programme I was training with sub 3 hr in mind but a 14 mile run 4 weeks ago forced me to have a major rethink.I was meant to include 10 miles @ MP but ended up averaging 7:24 and struggled the whole time,ended up only doing 13 miles and walking most of the last mile home.
Since then I've been training with 3:15 in mind,I've cut back my general aerobic pace to 8:30 min miles and my long runs to 9 min miles but a few runs over the last week have really surprised me.
Last Friday I nailed a 10 mile run with 6 @ 6:40 pace,I could've went a lot quicker but I had a 20 miler 2 days later so didn't want to go too hard.did the long run on the Sunday and was feeling really good at 18 miles so threw in a 7:10 mile and a 6:57.
This morning I did 16 miles with 12 x 7 min miles and felt really strong,surprised myself cos I thought I'd struggle to nail 12 x sub 7:30 miles.
At the moment I think sub 3:10 is definitely within reach but am I totally fooling myself even considering sub 3 a possibility?
Sub 1:27 HM which I know isn't great,did the clontarf half in last month fully expecting to put a good hole in that but found it a lot tougher than expected and came in at 1:28 flat.

.
10 mile PB is 63:30,
10 k PB 38:16,
5 mile PB is 30 flat but there was a bit of a dispute over the accuracy of the course,did it this year in 30:25.
5 k PB is 18:40.

Bahanaman

ooter wrote: »

I'd appreciate a bit of advice/input on my situation if possible?
Made my marathon debut at DCM last year,3:25.before doing the programme for that (HH novice 1) my weekly mileage would've only been about 15 (3 x 5).
I've kept the running going since DCM and gradually built my weekly mileage up in to the 30's before starting the p+d up to 55 mile plan for DCM.
For the first 5 weeks of the programme I was training with sub 3 hr in mind but a 14 mile run 4 weeks ago forced me to have a major rethink.I was meant to include 10 miles @ MP but ended up averaging 7:24 and struggled the whole time,ended up only doing 13 miles and walking most of the last mile home.
Since then I've been training with 3:15 in mind,I've cut back my general aerobic pace to 8:30 min miles and my long runs to 9 min miles but a few runs over the last week have really surprised me.
Last Friday I nailed a 10 mile run with 6 @ 6:40 pace,I could've went a lot quicker but I had a 20 miler 2 days later so didn't want to go too hard.did the long run on the Sunday and was feeling really good at 18 miles so threw in a 7:10 mile and a 6:57.
This morning I did 16 miles with 10 x 7 min miles and felt really strong,surprised myself cos I thought I'd struggle to nail 10 x sub 7:30 miles.
At the moment I think sub 3:10 is definitely within reach but am I totally fooling myself even considering sub 3 a possibility?
Sub 1:27 HM which I know isn't great,did the clontarf half in last month fully expecting to put a good hole in that but found it a lot tougher than expected and came in at 1:28 flat. .
10 mile PB is 63:30,
10 k PB 38:16,
5 mile PB is 30 flat but there was a bit of a dispute over the accuracy of the course,did it this year in 30:25.
5 k PB is 18:40.

Don't sell yourself short. Looks to me like you're considering a crack at it big time. Why not train on from now with that in mind and reassess things three or four weeks out! Be a shame to rule it out at this early stage when there's even the slightest feeling that you might be on for it! Give it a lash I say!!

rom

Looks like your around 3:05 possible shape atm just off PBs. Most would do the half 5 weeks out but Clontarf was a bit back. Also there was a nice bit of that through sand i heard. I'd say go for it. I wouldn't like to bet against you. Just be smart in the 3-4 weeks leading up. Did a session 2x40mins with 5mins recovery @ 6:40 about 6 weeks out. Felt like a machine. My numbers looked like I was in sub 3:10 shape 2 marathons back but I went for sub 3 and got 3:05. Aim for the moon and you will fall between the stars.

4 Weeks out I did 8M easy, 10M at 6:35 and 4M easy. I knew it was nailed on when I did that. Lots of things went against me on the day and had to work for it. Those big session will tell a lot.

ThePiedPiper

Ooter, just to play devil's advocate for a minute here. I think given what you've said, there would be a chance of a sub-3, but it'd require everything to go right between now and the race, and on the race itself. I recall the first time I posted on here, after running 1:26 in the HM in the park, with other race times similar to your own there, KC I think said it'd be borderline. In the marathon that autumn, I think I ran at sub-3 pace until 23 miles, then drifted out to 3:05.

I'd suggest continuing training as you are, with sub-3 as goal, but be honest with yourself when race time comes around. Go for it if you feel it's there, but remember it's just your second marathon. 3:05-3:10 would still be a great run, and you could push on very easily for the sub-3 the next time.

ooter

To be honest I only did clontarf for a chance to catch up with some mates that were doing it,it might be the flattest course in Ireland but the sand and wind takes it's toll.:)
I'd be delighted with sub 3:15 at DCM for a gfa for London 2016 but the ultimate aim is to eventually go sub 3 hr.
My worry would be going for sub 3 at DCM and blowing up and not even getting 3:15.
I'll train with sub 3 hr in mind for the next 4 weeks,at the end of that block there's a big session,18 miles with 14 @ MP.if i nail that one I'll have a big decision to make.
Thanks for the replies lads.

yaboya1

1:20:17 for me in the Longford HM yesterday. I cannot wait for Berlin!

Itziger

ooter wrote: »

To be honest I only did clontarf for a chance to catch up with some mates that were doing it,it might be the flattest course in Ireland but the sand and wind takes it's toll.:)
I'd be delighted with sub 3:15 at DCM for a gfa for London 2016 but the ultimate aim is to eventually go sub 3 hr.
My worry would be going for sub 3 at DCM and blowing up and not even getting 3:15.
I'll train with sub 3 hr in mind for the next 4 weeks,at the end of that block there's a big session,18 miles with 14 @ MP.if i nail that one I'll have a big decision to make.
Thanks for the replies lads.

Yep, that session should tell a lot. Your times don't scream sub 3 and I think you will have to make the call nearer the day. As you say, there's plenty time. A controlled 3.05 would be better than a traumatic explosion. Then you can go away and work at the sub 3 for nest year.

But if you really nail that 14MP run....................

PaulieYifter

Toblerone1978 wrote: »

Well done, great box to tick!. Race report please :-)

Race report over here

Longford Marathon

viperlogic

Ran 1:26:44 in Cork Half marathon in June, 12 weeks later of following P&D 18 weeks 70mile marathon plan I have now got that down to 1:23:33 which I got on Saturday in Tullamore Half Marathon. Things looking good for sub 3 in Amsterdam.

Highly recommend the P&D plan

Bahanaman

Going great viper! Just keep ticking over now!!

yaboya1

viperlogic wrote: »

Ran 1:26:44 in Cork Half marathon in June, 12 weeks later of following P&D 18 weeks 70mile marathon plan I have now got that down to 1:23:33 which I got on Saturday in Tullamore Half Marathon. Things looking good for sub 3 in Amsterdam.

Highly recommend the P&D plan

Speaking of the P&D plan, enjoy your 6x1k session tomorrow

ooter

Back again folks,was due to do 18 miles with 14 @ MP yesterday but I got a free entry for the HM so did the 18 miles Saturday instead and ran 13.1 miles @ 6:38 average pace.
Probably ran a bit harder than I should have but I stayed with the 1:30 pacers till just after half way and felt really comfortable at that pace.
Would love to go with the 3 hour pacers at DCM, would that effort on Saturday put me in with a shout of hanging in with them all the way?

viperlogic

ooter wrote: »

Back again folks,was due to do 18 miles with 14 @ MP yesterday but I got a free entry for the HM so did the 18 miles Saturday instead and ran 13.1 miles @ 6:38 average pace.
Probably ran a bit harder than I should have but I stayed with the 1:30 pacers till just after half way and felt really comfortable at that pace.
Would love to go with the 3 hour pacers at DCM, would that effort on Saturday put me in with a shout of hanging in with them all the way?

Your post is confusing or could be just me! So you did 18 miles on Saturday and then did a half marathon yesterday (Sunday)?

During the half marathon you stuck with the 1:30 pacers till half way and then pushed on? The 1:30 pacers would of been doing ~6:50.

Do you have a recent half marathon or 10 mile race time? Typically double your half marathon time and add 10mins or use one of the online calcs but that's just a rough guide.

ooter

No,I ran 3 slow miles up to the start line of the HM,ran the HM and then carried on for 2 miles slowly back home.
HM time on Saturday was 86:39,I'm probably closer to 3:05-3:10 pace but I just thought I'd ask the more experienced people on here.

dukeraoul

viperlogic wrote: »

Your post is confusing or could be just me! So you did 18 miles on Saturday and then did a half marathon yesterday (Sunday)?

During the half marathon you stuck with the 1:30 pacers till half way and then pushed on? The 1:30 pacers would of been doing ~6:50.

Do you have a recent half marathon or 10 mile race time? Typically double your half marathon time and add 10mins or use one of the online calcs but that's just a rough guide.

Need more info ooter- what are you pbs? TBH 13.1 @ MP in a race environment does't tell us a whole lot... Whats your training look like, how many LSR's over 20 etc???

nerraw1111

ooter wrote: »

No,I ran 3 slow miles up to the start line of the HM,ran the HM and then carried on for 2 miles slowly back home.
HM time on Saturday was 86:39,I'm probably closer to 3:05-3:10 pace but I just thought I'd ask the more experienced people on here.

Far from an expert but...when I ran sub 3, I did a similar session with around the same number of weeks to go to Dublin.

I was in a heap afterwards. Average pace was around 6.49.

But speaking to people afterwards and on boards, I decided to give sub 3 a crack based on that session.

Starting to consider going for 2.50 this year based on running 1.24 in the Dublin half as part of an MP session.

ooter

dukeraoul wrote: »

Need more info ooter- what are you pbs? TBH 13.1 @ MP in a race environment does't tell us a whole lot... Whats your training look like, how many LSR's over 20 etc???

Sunday week will be my 3rd 20 miler of the year/programme and only my 5th overall,did 2 in the build up to my first marathon last year.I've never ran a LSR over 20 miles.
PB's are here.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91888794&postcount=971

Krusty_Clown

ooter wrote: »

Sunday week will be my 3rd 20 miler of the year/programme and only my 5th overall,did 2 in the build up to my first marathon last year.I've never ran a LSR over 20 miles.
PB's are here.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91888794&postcount=971

Hi ooter, did the 1/2 marathon at the weekend feel like you were racing, or did it feel like it was a controlled sustainable pace?

The best thing you can do is get some runs in with segments at planned marathon pace and see how they feel. Tergat previously posted a great session:
2 miles easy
5-4-3-2-1 @marathon pace, with 2 mins rest
2 miles easy

A session like this will really give you an idea if sub-3 pace is on the cards. For most of the session, you should feel in control, with just the last couple of sections being pretty tough (at least they were for me yesterday!). But if you're not planning on attempting sub-3, I would avoid the sub-3 pacers (even if they are a nice bunch of lads!), as going out too hard, can lead to a slow grinding death march.

ooter

Cheers kc.
For all the time I stayed with the pacers I felt in control,maybe I should've stayed with them to see how I felt at that pace for the whole race but I kicked on at 7.5 miles chasing a PB,which I got.I was definitely racing for the remaining 5.6 miles.
Could I do that session for my last 20 miler or would it be too much too soon with only 3 weeks out from the marathon ?
Yeah my fear is going out too fast and blowing up,that happened to me last year and it wasn't nice,I hit 20 miles with sub 3:15 on the cards and then bang,it wasn't pretty.
But I feel I'm in much better shape this year and I have worked all year on my endurance,I've ran 11-1200 miles so far this year,this time last year I would've had about 700 miles under my belt for the year.

dukeraoul

Yeah ooter-

Good advise from KC. I'd dp that session this weekend though if you were gonna do it. If I had to guess I think you'd be right on the line. I reckon endurance is probably a natural strength of yours- depending on the day I might try and negative split. Maybe go out at 1:31/1:32 and if you're feeling good blast the quicker (course wise) second half.

ooter

Well I was due to do an 8-15k tune up run/race this Saturday (was thinking of doing a flat out 5 miler) and then 17 miles Sunday,could I ditch the Saturday run and try and nail that session that kc suggested on Sunday?