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72% believe suicide to be morally unacceptable, do you agree?

P_1

So browsing the ST today I noticed an interesting article on a survey based on what people view as being morally acceptable today (sadly I cannot link as the ST is behind a paywall but its on Page 8 for anyone who's interested). One answer that caught my eye was that 72% of people believe that suicide is morally unacceptable.

I honestly thought that we were gone past the days of people considering victims of suicide to be 'selfish' but that result would lead one to think otherwise. My own view is that suicide is, in some cases, the unfortunate result of unmanaged depression and in other cases people, on learning of a diagnosis of an incurable disease people electing to end things on their own terms. In neither case do I consider the individual concerned to be 'selfish' in any way.

So AH what do you think of this? Is suicide morally unacceptable or is it the consequence of unmanaged depression? Is it ever justified?

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--LOS--

so selfish to be ill, ye, sure it is ¬_¬

Unfortunately I see that kind of mentality a lot especially in rural Ireland. The statistics for this country definitely don't reflect the reality, not even close. I know of so so many people now that suffer from mental illness, and those are only the ones that I know about, considering how many people keep it quiet, there has to be so many more, it's really frightening how bad it's getting tbh. And it's definitely something that's extremely shameful still, I see that in my own family, the idea of someone having depression is laughable to them, it's always dismissed. I was in the hospital before after a panic attack and the doctors asked my parents in front of me......if I ever suffer from stress, to which my mother instantly quips no with a sorta you have to be kidding me type tone. Lots of medical professionals are as clueless as everyone else. I was maybe 20/21 so why ask my parents! And then to also ask me in front of them, to which I of course said no ¬_¬ And continued to suffer. Then there was some guy beside me who had attempted suicide, the doctor was making no attempt to be discrete talking to him, just zero empathy, saying things like.....you regret it now though don't you, guilt-tripping the poor guy, I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

donegal__road

I dont think that anyone who is in the frame of mind to end their lives, could care a damn who thinks that its morally unacceptable.

Kiwi in IE

72% of people can stick their 'morally unacceptable' up their ar*%s in my opinion!

FanadMan

72% have absolutely no idea what crap I was in when I tried to OD or when I cut myself. No doubt this poll was conducted with people watching tv, cooking dinner or chasing kids around the house - in other words, people that just answer while not listening to the questions. I've been there and done that - almost all survey calls come while The Simpsons are on and I'll either just hang up or just answer at random.

Why don't they do a proper study on this? Contact people that are terminally ill, suffering from depression or even just ask if the person is able to listen to the questions properly before answering.

Suicide is a 50/50 response to a difficult problem. Either it works or it doesn't - one way or the other it leaves behind a totally distraught family and friends. For someone that is suffering from a terminal and debilitating illness they should be allowed a quick and dignified end. But for someone that has depression, then treatment.....medication, therapy and most importantly proper understanding and support from friends and family is essential.

colossus-x

Extraordinary selfish of the 72% to hold such a view.

LoveChanel

EyeSight

The thing about depression and having suicidal thoughts, is that you don't truly understand what it's like until you have had it. I would bet that the 72% here never experienced it

It's not about being sad, but everything in your life seems bad, even the good things seem bad. You don't see any reason to go on, you think you're doing everyone a favor by going, or you think nobody cares either way. It's such a scary thing

AudreyHepburn

I just think it's a sad lonely way to die and I can't imagine how awful it must be to be in such a state mentally that you feel the only way out of it is to take your own life.

I wouldn't be too hard on people who deem it morally wrong or say it's just a matter of talking to some-one or asking for help etc.

Most us don't truly understand depression. I for one hold my hands up and admit I have sometimes wondered why people let themselves get to that point or how it could be so hard to ask for help.

I don't think this makes me a bad person, just one who admits she has never suffered depression or watched some-one go through it so doesn't understand it fully.

I would never think badly of anyone who did, but I can see why some people might. It's a very hard thing to understand and easy to get the wrong idea about.

mickstupp

^I appreciate the honesty in your post.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Most us don't truly understand depression. I for one hold my hands up and admit I have sometimes wondered why people let themselves get to that point or how it could be so hard to ask for help.

Well, for a start, it's not necessarily a choice that you have. The slide can be imperceptibly gradual. I've sometimes woken up and had a realisation that I was now in a very bad place and had been getting worse for months without even realising it. Whether you can then do anything about it, well everyone's different. Asking for help is a more or less difficult thing depending on not just the person, but the state they're in, their environment, how supportive their friends and family are etc. there's a tonne of factors. I asked for help twice in twenty years. I'm in a relatively healthy place now and know that that was dumb of me. But I know myself well enough to know that when in the depths of depression I don't have much control over myself at all. You can very often feel like a passenger, along for the ride, and feel pretty damn trapped and unable to do anything about it. Asking for help can be a monumental task. The few times I've been actively suicidal (thankfully a long time ago now) I remember feeling very clear and sure that I was at that moment in control, for the first time in many months, and that killing myself was the quickest best way of taking control and ending this awful nightmare of being a passenger with little or no say in what was happening to me. Thankfully I snapped out of it, but I can only see how deluded I was from this distance and position of relative health.

Everyone's individual experience of depression and suicidal feelings will be different as well. You can't just look these things up in a dictionary or psychiatrist's handbook and say they're all the same and that the words on the page represent accurately what happens in every case. Everyone's different, everyone is affected by it and deals with it differently. There's no easy cure. But when you know people who are depressed, it can be very helpful just to let them know you're willing to listen if they want to talk, whether you understand them or not.

RoboRat

People don't or can't seem to understand that depression is an illness, it's not a state of mind that people can click their fingers and snap out of it. Like most illnesses if left untreated, it can lead to death.

Put it this way, if you had a finger that was so painful it was driving you insane and all you needed to do was to cut it off, most people would do so. Unless you have been down to the bottom of the well, you have no idea of how horrible and dark a place it is and how much you just want it to stop.

Hoop66

Suicide is a fundamental human right.

Uriel.

I agree that there is a strong element of moral nonacceptance surrounding suicide - and so there should be.

The thing is, it's not the suicide itself - rather it is the shockingly poor supports and funding (for research, treatment and ancillary services) available to sufferers of depression, or other mental "illnesses" and the lack of maturity in society surrounding mental health and suicide that is morally unacceptable

Ave Sodalis

RoboRat wrote: »

People don't or can't seem to understand that depression is an illness, it's not a state of mind that people can click their fingers and snap out of it. Like most illnesses if left untreated, it can lead to death.

Put it this way, if you had a finger that was so painful it was driving you insane and all you needed to do was to cut it off, most people would do so. Unless you have been down to the bottom of the well, you have no idea of how horrible and dark a place it is and how much you just want it to stop.

No, but nor is it untreatable or a life long problem. At least, it doesn't have to be a life long problem and I think the fact that it's often presented that it is, is one of the reasons that there's so many sufferers.
I also find the idea of suicide being brave kinda scary. Surely that's just shutting the door of treatment or help even further and highlighting the road to actually committing suicide. We have a problem with suicide and depression in this country, and I don't think idolising sufferers is going to help it.

Please note, none of this means I think we should stigmatise it, nor that I think people should click there fingers or get over it, nor that I think it's easy to get over, nor do I think that people aren't doing enough or anything like that. There is a long road to recovery but it can be done. It just takes finding out what it is that works and completely subscribing to the idea that it can be done. I really think telling people otherwise, and telling them they're brave for committing suicide, is completely counterproductive in tackling the problem.

bb1234567

Genuinely so sad to see so many people still think suicidal people are 'selfish'

I thought people were starting to become more educated on the subject but clearly the majority of people still have no clue what its like to be suicidal.

BeerWolf

People who say Suicide is a sin and the person committing it sent to hell can go **** themselves...

Brain washed morons of a text inserted by the governments of old... because a dead person isn't a tax paying / working person.

LoveChanel

BeerWolf wrote: »

People who say Suicide is a sin and the person committing it sent to hell can go **** themselves...

Brain washed morons of a text inserted by the governments of old... because a dead person isn't a tax paying / working person.

I agree with beerwolf. It's like the catholic church not allowing un baptised children to be buried in a graveyard. The catholic church has caused a lot of bad influnce on society..

RoboRat

No, but nor is it untreatable or a life long problem. At least, it doesn't have to be a life long problem and I think the fact that it's often presented that it is, is one of the reasons that there's so many sufferers.

Define lifelong problem? Cancer sufferers go into remission but may never get rid of the cancer and at any time it can remerge worse than before. Depression is the same, I know as I am on medication for the last 4 years. Yes, I am doing my level best but sometimes for no apparent reason, life gets extremely dark and I cannot paraphrase the thoughts that go through my head.

I also find the idea of suicide being brave kinda scary.

I don't think anybody says its brave but its not cowardly either. Just because somebody disagrees that it is a cowardly thing to do doesn't mean they think its brave. I had a very close uncle commit suicide, I saw him go from the life and soul of the party to being an absolute shell of a man. The only time in the 2 years that he went back to his old self was the day before he hung himself, obviously he had made his mind up and he was finally free.

There is a long road to recovery but it can be done. It just takes finding out what it is that works and completely subscribing to the idea that it can be done.

There is not always a cure, just like there are a variety of illnesses that have no cure and when you add the complexity of the brain into the mix, its far far more complex. Do you honestly think that all people who are suffering just decide to give up? They don't, the fight tooth and nail to try and fix the situation and sometimes it can't be fixed.

Ave Sodalis

RoboRat wrote: »

Define lifelong problem? Cancer sufferers go into remission but may never get rid of the cancer and at any time it can remerge worse than before. Depression is the same, I know as I am on medication for the last 4 years. Yes, I am doing my level best but sometimes for no apparent reason, life gets extremely dark and I cannot paraphrase the thoughts that go through my head.

I don't think anybody says its brave but its not cowardly either. Just because somebody disagrees that it is a cowardly thing to do doesn't mean they think its brave. I had a very close uncle commit suicide, I saw him go from the life and soul of the party to being an absolute shell of a man. The only time in the 2 years that he went back to his old self was the day before he hung himself, obviously he had made his mind up and he was finally free.

There is not always a cure, just like there are a variety of illnesses that have no cure and when you add the complexity of the brain into the mix, its far far more complex. Do you honestly think that all people who are suffering just decide to give up? They don't, the fight tooth and nail to try and fix the situation and sometimes it can't be fixed.

Life long in the way I've seen it defined on boards a number of times. In that you can't cure depression.
I mentioned brave because it was said in this thread twice. I agree, it's not cowardly or selfish, but I wouldn't call it brave in a way that idolises people.
I already said I don't think think they just give up, that they don't do enough. There's so many ways to overcome depression and not all of them are going to work for everyone. Heck, one way might only work for one person, not anyone else. However, speaking as someone how has overcome depression (and I don't mean just learned to deal with it, I mean it's gone), I can honestly say with everything I have that depression can be cured.

RoboRat

I can honestly say with everything I have that depression can be cured.

I'm happy for you but just because you have been cured doesn't mean that everybody can be cured. Depression is caused by different things, some physical deficiencies, some mental issues, some environmental issues and no case is the same as everybody is different.

Some people may make an alteration that will ensure it never happens, others will have to deal with it for life, regardless of what treatment they undergo so therefore, it can be a life long problem.

Ave Sodalis

RoboRat wrote: »

I'm happy for you but just because you have been cured doesn't mean that everybody can be cured. Depression is caused by different things, some physical deficiencies, some mental issues, some environmental issues and no case is the same as everybody is different.

Some people may make an alteration that will ensure it never happens, others will have to deal with it for life, regardless of what treatment they undergo so therefore, it can be a life long problem.

I am aware of the differences, which is why I know that there are many different ways to overcome it. The most fundamental part of it is that you believe you can.
It's hard to explain, but when you're sitting on the other side of it, it's so much clearer to see it for what it is. As I said on the thread in tGC, it's like depression is a maze but when you're on the other side of it, you can see it from above. I don't even know if that makes any sense...

AudreyHepburn

mickstupp wrote: »

^I appreciate the honesty in your post.

Well, for a start, it's not necessarily a choice that you have. The slide can be imperceptibly gradual. I've sometimes woken up and had a realisation that I was now in a very bad place and had been getting worse for months without even realising it. Whether you can then do anything about it, well everyone's different. Asking for help is a more or less difficult thing depending on not just the person, but the state they're in, their environment, how supportive their friends and family are etc. there's a tonne of factors. I asked for help twice in twenty years. I'm in a relatively healthy place now and know that that was dumb of me. But I know myself well enough to know that when in the depths of depression I don't have much control over myself at all. You can very often feel like a passenger, along for the ride, and feel pretty damn trapped and unable to do anything about it. Asking for help can be a monumental task. The few times I've been actively suicidal (thankfully a long time ago now) I remember feeling very clear and sure that I was at that moment in control, for the first time in many months, and that killing myself was the quickest best way of taking control and ending this awful nightmare of being a passenger with little or no say in what was happening to me. Thankfully I snapped out of it, but I can only see how deluded I was from this distance and position of relative health.

Everyone's individual experience of depression and suicidal feelings will be different as well. You can't just look these things up in a dictionary or psychiatrist's handbook and say they're all the same and that the words on the page represent accurately what happens in every case. Everyone's different, everyone is affected by it and deals with it differently. There's no easy cure. But when you know people who are depressed, it can be very helpful just to let them know you're willing to listen if they want to talk, whether you understand them or not.

I'm sorry you had to go through all that and I'm glad you've come through it.

I always feel honesty is best when talking about sensitive subjects like this,

I just wanted to get the point across that in the same as we are too quick to judge those with mental illness I think we can be a little to quick to judge those who don't understand them and think they are somehow easy to seek help for and cure.

I certainly would never think anyone is selfish or morally wrong for taking their own life but I'd be slow to judge anyone who thinks so.

If you've never experience mental illness how can you be expected to fully understand it?

P_1

sup_dude wrote: »

Life long in the way I've seen it defined on boards a number of times. In that you can't cure depression.
I mentioned brave because it was said in this thread twice. I agree, it's not cowardly or selfish, but I wouldn't call it brave in a way that idolises people.
I already said I don't think think they just give up, that they don't do enough. There's so many ways to overcome depression and not all of them are going to work for everyone. Heck, one way might only work for one person, not anyone else. However, speaking as someone how has overcome depression (and I don't mean just learned to deal with it, I mean it's gone), I can honestly say with everything I have that depression can be cured.

I'm not knocking you or anything but I think the word you're looking for is 'managed' rather than 'cured'.

To give an example, I'm a Type 1 Diabetic, there's no known cure for Diabetes but with the right balance of medication, exercise and diet you wouldn't think there was anything wrong with me. In fact I'd contend that there's nothing wrong with me. I think you can make a similar argument for depression.

Reebrock

SeaDaily wrote: »

72% of people must not understand depression.

I doubt 2% of people understand depression, sadly.

MayoSalmon

Whatever about "morally acceptable" but if a husband lets say commits suicide and leaves behind his stay at home wife and maybe there 3/4 small children then it is an extremely cowardly and selfish decision.

Ave Sodalis

P_1 wrote: »

I'm not knocking you or anything but I think the word you're looking for is 'managed' rather than 'cured'.

To give an example, I'm a Type 1 Diabetic, there's no known cure for Diabetes but with the right balance of medication, exercise and diet you wouldn't think there was anything wrong with me. In fact I'd contend that there's nothing wrong with me. I think you can make a similar argument for depression.

No, I mean cured

RoboRat

Whatever about "morally acceptable" but if a husband lets say commits suicide and leaves behind his stay at home wife and maybe there 3/4 small children then it is an extremely cowardly and selfish decision.

And this is the kind of attitude that makes depression such a taboo subject. If somebody died from cancer would you say the same? There are people who die daily from cancer and heart attacks because they smoked, drank and ate unhealthily but nobody would ever call them selfish for leaving their family behind.

The mindset in this country is that you're depressed because you are weak, which IMO is the same as telling somebody their body is weak because it can't beat cancer.

Unless you have been depressed you really have no idea what you are saying and I for one, can completely understand how somebody would take their own life. I am not saying its brave but I can understand.

Its so hard to explain but I guess the closest way to give an example is having the 'fear' multiplied by 1000. Nothing is right, there is an inner irritation that is driving you mad, there seems to be no way it will come right, you have no energy, no appetite, what you once enjoyed is no more, you can't sleep, you have horrendous thoughts which make you feel even worse. If you could cut it out no matter how painful, you would gladly do it. This doesn't even come close to describing how it feels and if you have had this for a few months, let alone a few years, you would want to finish it.

MayoSalmon

With all due respect, why do we ignore the possibilty that he/she just made a decision, the decision that they wanted to die. I know in the recent Robin Williams case there is evidence more was at play but in general cases of suicides why do we never speak about that fact that maybe some people just want to die?

I would say a LOT of people certainly more than we think actually want to make that choice, and they are not ill or diseased, they have made that decision after a lot of thought.

barneyrubble46

72% is a very high figure, is it morally wrong to end your own life, well the person who ends their life probably does not give a flying fart, I tried to end my own life when is was 13, what stopped me, well one person told me, you can rid the body of your problems but not your soul, it made me think, I am not a religious person, I have managed my depression for well over 35 years now with exersise, all around me I see people have taken their own life, its sad, why? old people, young people its just not right, no matter what, no matter how **** you feel. The people who think it is morally wrong just don't get it. However what I think most of them are thinking, and this is a guess, that we all sort of ask, what about the people you have left behind, they will blame themselves, they in turn may become depressed. The statistics for suicide in Ireland are a national disgrace. End of.

Reebrock

One selfish aspect of suicide... when somebody jumps in front of a train. They don't think about the poor driver who has to witness and feel that. Careers have ruined, and in turn, relationships. It happens far too frequently.

WilyCoyote

Every person has the right to cop out of life if they so wish.
As yet, I've no desire to. But I have made a living will
ie. If in a permanent vegetative state
Or if severely incapacitated
No permanent peg tubes
And that my wishes will be honoured.
Power of attorney given to wife and if she predeceases me - a younger relative.

But if I felt like departing this world earlier - by my own hand - I as owner of my body should have the right. And my death should not be a morose talking point or an albatross for friends and relations, but a celebration that I acted on the need to take a short cut to the next phase.