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PVC expansion problems

theoptimist

I just found this on the 'things you wish you did thread'

Deleted User wrote: »

Avoid black PVC-U doors & windows, they expand and contract quite a large amount, I've found that the patio doors stick in the heat and are draughty in the winter.
I have to adjust them twice a year now! The missus got some black blinds to match and they act like solar heaters in the summer as well (help heat the house in the winter though)

Anyone else have this experience?

Bit worrying as I'm about to order mine in black! (I wanted Accoya but it was never going to happen budget-wise).

Not crazy about PVC but in the darker colours I'm fairly impressed, it's pretty hard to tell from timber (In white or cream the black seals are a dead give away)

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theoptimist

Now I've started looking I've found a huge amount of stuff online about thermal conductivity of PVC, people talking about problems opening and closing doors in hot weather.
How much of a problem is this? I have two sets of south facing french doors.
It sounds like this is a problem generally with PVC, not just with dark colours, but obviously dark colours are going to absorb more heat, so how much worse is the problem going to be with a dark colour?

GreeBo

I had black abd didn't have any issues with expansion, however the front door did was replaced 5 times due to leaks and drafts, so check carefully after installation if you are in a windy location.

No good having triple glazing if air is pouring around the edges of your doors and windows, not to mention water!

theoptimist

Thanks Greebo, Thats so great to hear, I would really like black so the more people who say they have it and no problems the better!!
Does any of your pvc get a lot of sun? south facing?

GreeBo

Only the front was in black (bog oak) and it had afternoon and evening sun.
But I would check the specs as all may not be equal.

galwaytt

I have two hinged patio doors, facing south - white uPVC - and I have this problem with both. Very annoying.

hexosan

Met with reps from Grady & Munster and both claimed it wasn't an issue, but then I suppose they would.

theoptimist

galwaytt wrote: »

I have two hinged patio doors, facing south - white uPVC - and I have this problem with both. Very annoying.

I'm kinda happy to hear this problem with white pvc, (sorrygalwaytt!) at least I won't feel like I've chosen looks over function if I go with black!

theoptimist

hexosan wrote: »

Met with reps from Grady & Munster and both claimed it wasn't an issue, but then I suppose they would.

Wonder how can they say this won't a problem when it seems to be a widespread problem with PVC? Surely there is some kind of warranty with all the main suppliers? Or is this only an issue with the cheapest/lowest quality PVC?

I heard somewhere else though that the amount of expansion/contraction depends on how reinforced the frame is, assume that varies with the quality of the frame.

I haven't actually asked the MJ rep about warranty/expansion yet...I'll talk to her tomorrow...

martinn123

galwaytt wrote: »

I have two hinged patio doors, facing south - white uPVC - and I have this problem with both. Very annoying.

I have a Conservatory, white, facing south, built in 2001, never moved a millimeter, no issue with French doors of top opening sashes
My Neighbour has same in Wood-grain, it creaks, bangs, and he gets the doors adjusted annually, as it expands and contracts like hell.

hexosan wrote:

Met with reps from Grady & Munster and both claimed it wasn't an issue, but then I suppose they would

Not part of the Sales Training.

Wood-grain, Light Oak, and especially Bog Oak PVC is likely to expand and contract, in direct, Southern Sunlight,
White is less likely as it does not absorb as much heat.

Put a PVC Patio, in front of a PVC Door on a South Facing Front of house = disaster.

theoptimist

martinn123 wrote: »

I have a Conservatory, white, facing south, built in 2001, never moved a millimeter, no issue with French doors of top opening sashes
My Neighbour has same in Wood-grain, it creaks, bangs, and he gets the doors adjusted annually, as it expands and contracts like hell.

Not part of the Sales Training.

Wood-grain, Light Oak, and especially Bog Oak PVC is likely to expand and contract, in direct, Southern Sunlight,
White is less likely as it does not absorb as much heat.

Put a PVC Patio, in front of a PVC Door on a South Facing Front of house = disaster.

Right so... if wood grain is bad, black is likely to be worse!!

Although as some people with white pvc seem to also to have this problem, how much of it is due to the colour and how much to the quality?

Is it possible your neighbour just has lower quality PVC?

martinn123

theoptimist wrote: »

Right so... if wood grain is bad, black is likely to be worse!!

Although as some people with white pvc seem to also to have this problem, how much of it is due to the colour and how much to the quality?

Is it possible your neighbour just has lower quality PVC?

it's a combination of the Colour, White=Good, Woodgrain= worse, Black=Worst

and the amount of reinforcing, inside the profile, plus the quality of the PVC.

In white, Deeplas White is the best as its a glossy white, and reflects back the heat most efficiently, other whites are a more Matt finish.

fatty pang

theoptimist wrote: »

Surely there is some kind of warranty with all the main suppliers? Or is this only an issue with the cheapest/lowest quality PVC?

Window warranties really need to be read very carefully. If something is not mentioned there is a reason for it. If something is mentioned you want to be very clear about what typical caveats that are put in place.

fatty pang

martinn123 wrote: »

Not part of the Sales Training.

God forbid

fatty pang

martinn123 wrote: »

it's a combination of the Colour, White=Good, Woodgrain= worse, Black=Worst

and the amount of reinforcing, inside the profile, plus the quality of the PVC.

In white, Deeplas White is the best as its a glossy white, and reflects back the heat most efficiently, other whites are a more Matt finish.

Which white is it that has the tendency to go 'pink' ?

martinn123

fatty pang wrote: »

Which white is it that has the tendency to go 'pink' ?

Recycled PVC, avoid at all costs.

fatty pang

martinn123 wrote: »

Recycled PVC, avoid at all costs.

Can't do that....It's the justification behind it's Green Guide A rating !!!

theoptimist

fatty pang wrote: »

Which white is it that has the tendency to go 'pink' ?

Ahh no! so I have a choice between black PVC doors that don't work and white that go pink!! how lovely, I might have to turn to a life of crime to pay for timber windows....!!

scwazrh

"Pinking" as it is called used to be common in a lot of cheaper pvc .Now that manufacturers are aware of it they take precautions against it.You should not have any issue with pinking on white pvc windows provided you buy from an established company.The pvc roofline products that we install are covered by the manufacturer with a 50 yr guarantee against colour loss , so that gives an idea of how well manufacturers can control the problem.

With pvc expansion , all materials expand and contract to a degree but I have never seen a pvc door expand to the extent that it wont close properly.So again pick a reputable company to supply and install the product and you should be fine.

fatty pang

scwazrh wrote: »

The pvc roofline products that we install are covered by the manufacturer with a 50 yr guarantee against colour loss , so that gives an idea of how well manufacturers can control the problem.

50 year guarantee against bleaching is not a huge issue with white pvc. What about brown soffit/facia ? 50 years ? 30...25 ??
I see an awful lot of that bleached within a few years.

scwazrh

50 yr on white , 10 yr on woodgrain

hexosan

scwazrh wrote: »

50 yr on white , 10 yr on woodgrain

What about black.

theoptimist

Thanks guys, this is really useful. I feel a bit ill when i think of all the important questions i would have neglected to ask the company if I'd ordered the window before starting this thread.

hexosan wrote: »

What about black.

yes, I'd be interested to know the answer to this question too

martinn123

martinn123 wrote: »

Recycled PVC, avoid at all costs.

fatty pang wrote:

Can't do that....It's the justification behind it's Green Guide A rating !!!

Just to clarify, the vast, vast majority of PVC windows are made from virgin upvc, which is extruded into lengths in a chemical process, and is fine.

Manufacturers are aware of a small number of cases where discoloration took place due to an error in the chemical mix.

Recycled PVC however is different. As the name suggests the PVC is on a second trip, having been say a window previously, and been ground up, and recycled, and made into a length of PVC again

Impurities in the recycling process, lead to the pvc being unstable and likely to discolour

Some Co's promote this product, as a Green initiative, however in my experience avoid it in Windows, doors etc, as it is not stable.

Do not confuse this with a product which is marketed as ''Recyclable'' and carries some sort of Green Sticker,or Green Guide A Rating, or the like.

galwaytt

hexosan wrote: »

Met with reps from Grady & Munster and both claimed it wasn't an issue, but then I suppose they would.

well then, the manufacturer from the above, who made mine, can come & have a look at mine and tell me why mine behave as they do........they made 'em.......... :mad:

[Deleted User]

Just a quick follow up on this thread as it was started by a quote of mine.
I still have the same problem with the doors expanding in the summer but I don't bother adjusting them any more I now pull the two doors closed together and they "pop in".

fatty pang

scwazrh wrote: »

50 yr on white , 10 yr on woodgrain

Hardly a vote of confidence for colours other then white.

scwazrh

hexosan wrote: »

What about black.

10 yr on black

paddydriver

Just got new windows and doors throughout house in Rosewood woodgrain PVC and the warranty on anything woodgrain is only 7 years whereas everything else is 10 years. Anything I looked at in the showroom was woodgrain so wondering why they bother saying 10 year warranty.

Only been in a few weeks so cannot report on any issues yet. The 2 x double doors are at the back and get no sunshine, I think these would be the one's likely to be most impacted but won't be getting any sunshine to know.

hexosan

Spoke with the Grady rep and basically the 10yr guarantee is broken down into 1yr for everything and the remaining 9yrs is only for glass leaking, fogging or laminate colourful pealing off the PVC.
Claimed this is similar with most of the main PVC suppliers

theoptimist

Deleted User wrote: »

Just a quick follow up on this thread as it was started by a quote of mine.
I still have the same problem with the doors expanding in the summer but I don't bother adjusting them any more I now pull the two doors closed together and they "pop in".

Thanks Dolanbaker, sorry for dredging up that old post of yours but it was the first I'd heard of this problem!
Glad to hear the problem hasn't got any worse, and that the doors still function!

Sooo... would you buy white pvc if you could go back?!