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Coding: how to make the leap?

GeorgeH

As a relative novice to serious coding I'm having a huge and very frustrating problem getting a fairly small php website to run on a Windows shared server with a very well known hosting company! I've noticed quite a bit of historical chatter and appeals for help on the same issue here, with little evidence of actual resolution.

Frankly I'm finding the customer service experience equally frustrating and disappointing! Not to say it's all their fault because I'm not an experienced php coder but I'm feeling that short, cryptic, technobabble is not a great UX strategy and it certainly won't help me with a positive decision when it comes time to renew hosting with them! Seems the strategy is more just to get the ticket off their virtual desk! A management issue!

I'm wondering if a recognised qualification in plain, properly articulated english shouldn't be a prerequisite for technical support people? I saw a comment someone put up on a GIMP (graphics package) forum a while back on a comparable issue and they vented to the effect that perhaps what was also needed was some adult supervision! Ok, don't know, but....

The other thing that struck me is that, if I can be forgiven for drawing a parallel between coding and mountaineering, there is an abundance of material and courses out there that can get almost anyone to the level of climbing Lugnaquilla - in coding terms that is! But there is very little to help one transition from there to, say, a competent technical assault on Mont Blanc for instance!

And of course 'Mont Blanc' or higher is the level the technobabblers seem to think everyone's at! and would the messers just go away (politely)!

Help!

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Graham

GeorgeH wrote: »

I'm wondering if a recognised qualification in plain, properly articulated english shouldn't be a prerequisite for technical support people?

At the same time perhaps people should have to take a test before they're allowed to own and operate a hosting account/website?

There's only so much hand-holding the hosting company can do when the average small customer is paying something resembling the price of a cup of coffee for their hosting account.

I do feel rather sorry for the tech-support guys in your average hosting company as I suspect they're expected to troubleshoot everything from problems installing FTP client to debugging html/css/php.

(that wasn't particularly aimed at you GeorgeH, just the other side of the same coin).

GeorgeH

I agree, I think the test drive to own and operate a hosting account/website is a good idea - it's there already - it's called 'client with a chequebook!!' ;-)

Graham

You're confusing hosting with driving in Ireland.

GeorgeH

and of course I had no problems with ftp/html/css - works like a dream! :-)

GeorgeH

cryptic parallel between the hosting company and driving in Ireland perhaps!! ;-)

Graham

GeorgeH wrote: »

cryptic parallel between the hosting company and driving in Ireland perhaps!! ;-)

The assumption that buying something automatically entitles/qualifies the purchaser to operate it.

Like I said, not particularly aimed at you as I have no idea of your level of knowledge or ability or the problems you're having with your web host.

GeorgeH

sorry Graham, but the hosting company sets their strategy and their prices and puts themselves out there for business - if they accept a client on the terms they do business it's not really a client issue if the strategy is to buy market share and then a service problem emerges, pretty much regardless of any client's technical ability - basic business - price properly!! I think you're absolutely right! if they don't want to deal with small clients, why are they putting themselves out there to the whole market? Why shouldn't their strategy be to deal with re-sellers only? And then the re-seller can price properly to include appropriate service. It was the the hosting company's choice.

Graham

GeorgeH wrote: »

sorry Graham, but the hosting company sets their strategy and their prices and puts themselves out there for business - if they accept a client on the terms they do business it's not really a client issue if the strategy is to buy market share and then a service problem emerges, pretty much regardless of any client's technical ability - basic business - price properly!! I think you're absolutely right! if they don't want to deal with small clients, why are they putting themselves out there to the whole market? Why shouldn't their strategy be to deal with re-sellers only? And then the re-seller can price properly to include appropriate service. It was the the hosting company's choice.

To a point I'd agree, but only to a point. If the hosting company is confident that the issue is with the client and not their service then I wouldn't expect them to include training for the user in the monthly hosting fee.

Much in the same way I don't expect my electricity supplier to talk me through rewiring my house.

ChRoMe

Graham wrote: »

Much in the same way I don't expect my electricity supplier to talk me through rewiring my house.

Nail. Hammer. Head

@GeorgeH: They are not helping because its your code that is at fault, they cant be expected to debug it.

GeorgeH

interesting discussion guys, thanks, but I don't buy it and neither should anyone whose money is accepted by a provider for a service on the provider's published terms of business! commercial reality guys! that's not && or || or ! dreamworld! and taking ChRoMe's 'informed' point of my code being at fault at face value - that's very good news firstly because it's not my code, and secondly if it's wrong, some leaders in the field need your wizardry quickly! awesome (!) But thanks for the banter, cheers guys

lemon_remon

No offence, but your writing style is confusing and unclear. I'm tired, but I'm having trouble even understanding what you're asking here. Maybe your hosting company is having the same problems?

carlmango11

Obviously I don't know the details of what you're trying to do but I'd bet money that it's not the hosting company's fault. They probably provide the exact same service to thousands of clients without issue.

Try googling around for the issues you're having or asking someone online

ChRoMe

GeorgeH wrote: »

interesting discussion guys, thanks, but I don't buy it and neither should anyone whose money is accepted by a provider for a service on the provider's published terms of business! commercial reality guys! that's not && or || or ! dreamworld! and taking ChRoMe's 'informed' point of my code being at fault at face value - that's very good news firstly because it's not my code, and secondly if it's wrong, some leaders in the field need your wizardry quickly! awesome (!) But thanks for the banter, cheers guys

Or you have deployed it incorrectly or a 100 other possible variables outside the hosts control. It's amusing that a self confessed novice speaks with such conviction.

Beano

GeorgeH wrote: »

interesting discussion guys, thanks, but I don't buy it and neither should anyone whose money is accepted by a provider for a service on the provider's published terms of business! commercial reality guys! that's not && or || or ! dreamworld! and taking ChRoMe's 'informed' point of my code being at fault at face value - that's very good news firstly because it's not my code, and secondly if it's wrong, some leaders in the field need your wizardry quickly! awesome (!) But thanks for the banter, cheers guys

If it isnt your code who wrote it? Perhaps you should be asking them for help?

Beano

ChRoMe wrote: »

Or you have deployed it incorrectly or a 100 other possible variables outside the hosts control. It's amusing that a self confessed novice speaks with such conviction.

Thats an excellent point. Do you have a local test system you have deployed this successfully to? If not then how do you know that the problem isnt with "your" code?

Graham

I think the key clues in this thread are:

it's not my code
php website
Windows shared server

My guess would be the authors of the code have never tested the script on a Windows web server.

Beano

Graham wrote: »

I think the key clues in this thread are:
it's not my code

php website

Windows shared server

My guess would be the authors of the code have never tested the script on a Windows web server.

To be honest i think the OP just came here to vent and was somewhat suprised by the response he received. i doubt we will see him again.

Graham

Beano wrote: »

To be honest i think the OP just came here to vent and was somewhat suprised by the response he received. i doubt we will see him again.

Not my intention, in fact if the OP had posted about the actual problem he was having we may have been able to help him.

Beano

Graham wrote: »

Not my intention, in fact if the OP had posted about the actual problem he was having we may have been able to help him.

Oh i'm sure that wasnt your intention. but the fact that he never gave any details of the problem is telling.

ChRoMe

Graham wrote: »

I think the key clues in this thread are:
it's not my code

php website

Windows shared server

My guess would be the authors of the code have never tested the script on a Windows web server.

For as bad as PHP is, the host OS shouldnt make that much of a difference?

Graham

ChRoMe wrote: »

For as bad as PHP is, the host OS shouldnt make that much of a difference?

It doesn't make a high difference but there's a reason many off the shelf php scripts recommend linux for their scripts (or they highlight the fact said script is untested in Windows).

I think most of it is around configuration rather than day-to-day operation and if the old memory serves me correctly, file paths are often a culprit.

GeorgeH

Just had to come back to this one for a final time!
There was nothing wrong with the code - in spite of some ****head comments above!
Site up and running again now, no problem.
The site was running fine prior to a php upgrade by the hosting company
As it turns out, there was then a problem with the <!DOCTYPE> or 'charset' I was using and the site wouldn't load with the upgrade.
I think it is fair to expect hosting 'support' (!!!) people to be able to pick that up!
So I think it's also fair to suggest that the one commenter who offered some rational input wasn't quite on the button.
Not worth bothering about the other smart**** commenter - head where the sun doesn't shine-stuff ;-)
Problem sorted (by self!) Cheers guys! over & out

Colonel Panic

I think your expectations of support for a hosting company aren't very realistic. How much are you paying for hosting?

And the problem was with the code if the doctype wasn't configured correctly. That is worked with an older version of PHP is neither here nor there!

oneofakind32

For me coding is simple and can be some up in 4 words.

edit - break - fix - repeat

Perseverance is huge part of reaching your goals. If you come to an impasse repeat the process and try again. If you are still stuck, step away from the computer, go take a **** or get a coffee(if you don't drink coffee, start) or both. Think about the problem at a higher level and try and find a new root to the same goal.

Im not saying that you should ignore all the literature and just start breaking everything, but personally I find that when you get too deep into technical books you start to become over whelmed and feeling like it's beyond you because you can't wrap your head around a certain concept. You don't need to fully understand how something works in order to get it to do what you want it to do. I feel a better strategy is to google, copy, paste and run and see what happens. See if you can edit the code to get it do what you want. If you do this first and then go back to the literature you will find it easier to understand the concepts involved.

I have a a lot of friends who tell me they are no good with computers. These are smart college grads with mathematical backgrounds and I tell them that the only difference between them and I is that when they reach a problem and they throw there hands up and call tech support, where as I do not have the same luxury, I must persist and find a solution. When they tell me that they couldn't do what I do I tell them of course they can it's all about persistence.

I don't think it good to think of programming as a series of mountains you can't climb so why try. You need start climbing regardless, its the only way you will learn. No one is going to hold your hand.

Graham

GeorgeH wrote: »

As it turns out, there was then a problem with the <!DOCTYPE> or 'charset' I was using and the site wouldn't load with the upgrade.

Congrats on sorting it out and confirming the issue had nothing to do with your hosting provider. It might be worth reporting back to the authors of the script that they need to fix the doctype/charset issues.

TonyStark

GeorgeH wrote: »

Just had to come back to this one for a final time!
There was nothing wrong with the code - in spite of some ****head comments above!
Site up and running again now, no problem.
The site was running fine prior to a php upgrade by the hosting company
As it turns out, there was then a problem with the <!DOCTYPE> or 'charset' I was using and the site wouldn't load with the upgrade.
I think it is fair to expect hosting 'support' (!!!) people to be able to pick that up!
So I think it's also fair to suggest that the one commenter who offered some rational input wasn't quite on the button.
Not worth bothering about the other smart**** commenter - head where the sun doesn't shine-stuff ;-)
Problem sorted (by self!) Cheers guys! over & out

Reading this, irrespective of the comments made above does not read well. To be quite frank with you I've met a lot of "tradesmen" who are quick to blame the tools

Hosting support staff are there to provide the infrastructure for your code etc not there to provide answers why your code hasn't been deployed correctly. To berate them for your own absence of technical knowledge and not knowing the difference between an infrastructure issue and a problem with your code is unfair.

It could have been your code had expected a level of privilege that it had on the development server that wasn't available on the shared server. But its up to you as a developer to know this. Also you will find the more you are willing to pay the more control you will have over your server.

The Corinthian

Graham wrote: »

Congrats on sorting it out and confirming the issue had nothing to do with your hosting provider.

Well it did have something to do with his hosting provider. Of course, that doesn't mean that the responsibility for his problems is with that provider.

Hosting providers will preform upgrades on a regular basis. They have to and I'd be more concerned if they didn't. When they do, they will typically inform their customers what they are planning to do in advance. At that point it is the responsibility of the customer to research and consider the implications to their applications and take action to mitigate risk accordingly.

To use a non-technical example, consider your local electricity provider has to upgrade the local power lines. They inform customers local to these lines of this planned upgrade and that it may cause outages during the upgrade window. Now, is it the provider's fault that a customer planned a children's party and suddenly there was no power for the DVD player, to keep the kids happy? No. It's the customer's fault for not taking sufficient notice of the warning.

If the OP was informed by the hosting company of this change, which I'd be very surprised if he wasn't, then really the buck stops with him. Getting such notifications of upgrades, down-times, T&C changes and so on may be a pain to keep up with but they're part of the job. So if he failed to see how this may affect him, and then things go pear-shaped, then that's his fault, not theirs.

As to the question of customer support; he should read his agreement with the hosting company. You'll find that they'll be quite specific about what you can expect. If they're failing to meet response times, which happens, then I agree with his criticisms, but all too often you'll also have customers who will get something dirt cheap or even for free then expect platinum-plated service (which will specifically not be included with their agreement). That's when I might suggest they make themselves a coffee and wake up to the real World before they sleepwalk into another self-entitled disappointment.

Graham

Absolutely agree that hosting providers have a responsibility to inform their customers of anything that's likely to impact the service they provide.

In this case, it sounds like the html would not have passed html validation and although this wasn't an issue on an older version go PHP it was as issue with the new version. From the fix the OP describes, had the script output valid html in the first place this would never have been an issue. I wouldn't expect any hosting provider at any price point to hand-hold a customer through fixing a 3rd party script, although if you're paying €xxx - €xxxx a month there's a good chance they would try and assist.

OP basically confirmed this was never a hosting issue as the issue was addressed by tweaking the script to produce valid html.

GeorgeH has every right to be annoyed with the script authors.

ChRoMe

Graham wrote: »

GeorgeH has every right to be annoyed with the script authors.

He should get a refund for the script