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America as a whole expected to take responcibility for US torture methods after 9.11

renegademaster

so, the leader of the "free" world has come out and admitted the american army/government etc "tortured some folks" in the "war agaist terror", well that's nice, years after we all know for sure illegal torture and illegal renditions etc were happening!!

he also stated the nation as a whole needs to now take responcibility for the actions so they hopefully won't happen again in the future.

let nobody forget that in 3 months between Jan and mid Mar 2003 up to 36,000,000 people protested at 3000 protests (worldwide!!) against the Iraq/Afghan invasion!!

where will it all end?

http://rt.com/usa/177444-obama-briefing-cia-torture/

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Mr.Micro

end of the road wrote: »

not allegedly at all, fact, but yeah, shur tis nothing, shur they were only Arab, shur it was only people being tortured, no big deal, i suppose if it was black people you'd have the same opinion, and you would be the first to moan if Arabs tortured a white irish person

If torture of any person is allowed then, it can be applied to any person who fits the bill. In future, it may be the Chinese who are a threat to Uncle Sam. The democratic / humanitarian crown of the US has become tarnished.

darkpagandeath

Mr.Micro wrote: »

If torture of any person is allowed then, it can be applied to any person who fits the bill. In future, it may be the Chinese who are a threat to Uncle Sam. The democratic / humanitarian crown of the US has become tarnished.

You don't think china is not already doing it to it's own people/enemy's ?

Nodin

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You don't think china is not already doing it to it's own people/enemy's ?

So we think the PRC is the standard to follow then?

end of the road

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You must live in a cave and eat berries if you think your not using American Products.

whether i am or not is irrelevant to you, but i will criticise a countries actions if i disagree with them, and if i want

darkpagandeath

end of the road wrote: »

whether i am or not is irrelevant to you, but i will criticise a countries actions if i disagree with them, and if i want

But how is that working out for people ? People criticise.

America
Israel
Russia
China
The banks
Big oil

All these things, Were does it get them ? Nowhere people criticise things they have 0 control over. People criticise to give themselves a sense of "well at least if I say it's bad I feel better" It does absolutely nothing.

Nodin

darkpagandeath wrote: »

But how is that(..........) nothing.

Do you think we should set our societies by the standards of the PRC?

end of the road

darkpagandeath wrote: »

But how is that working out for people ? People criticise.

America
Israel
Russia
China
The banks
Big oil

All these things, Were does it get them ? Nowhere people criticise things they have 0 control over. People criticise to give themselves a sense of "well at least if I say it's bad I feel better" It does absolutely nothing.

or maybe its because they find some of the actions of these countries discusting, especially when america and israel at least make out how they are moral and upstanding, and america criticising other countries for carrying out the same actions but doing them themselves

darkpagandeath

Nodin wrote: »

Do you think we should set our societies by the standards of the PRC?

No, We have set out a set of ideals in the west and sets of laws that we all should be following. But our society is also dealing with people that would have no problem running into yours or my house and kill everyone in it if it would further their cause. How do you suggest we combat that and deal with them, I have already said torture is wrong. But I have no idea either how to deal with these fanatics.

Nodin

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No, We have set out a set of ideals in the west and sets of laws that we all should be following. But our society is also dealing with people that would have no problem running into yours or my house and kill everyone in it if it would further their cause. How do you suggest we combat that and deal with them, I have already said torture is wrong. But I have no idea either how to deal with these fanatics.

Torture wasn't endorsed against the Nazis or the Japanese, so its safe to say the odd beardy nut doesn't require its use either.

marienbad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No, We have set out a set of ideals in the west and sets of laws that we all should be following. But our society is also dealing with people that would have no problem running into yours or my house and kill everyone in it if it would further their cause. How do you suggest we combat that and deal with them, I have already said torture is wrong. But I have no idea either how to deal with these fanatics.

It is a non-existent made up threat .

darkpagandeath

Nodin wrote: »

Torture wasn't endorsed against the Nazis or the Japanese, so its safe to say the odd beardy nut doesn't require its use either.

But people are complaining that these people are being bombed and that's the only reason these groups are around. I tried to point out it's more complicated than that, And also just leaving them to it is not an option either. So from what you have said you would support of a large scale invasion to sort out all these groups and take out their abilities to fight ?

darkpagandeath

marienbad wrote: »

It is a non-existent made up threat .

I see so ISIS Al-Qaeda and all them other militant groups are figments of our imagination ? These groups are a danger to the regions their in, I agree their abilities to wage war in the west is pretty weak. But are you saying just leave them to it and kill, torture, maim anyone they come across they deem not to support their cause ?

Nodin

darkpagandeath wrote: »

But people are complaining that these people are being bombed and that's the only reason these groups are around. I tried to point out it's more complicated than that, And also just leaving them to it is not an option either. So from what you have said you would support of a large scale invasion to sort out all these groups and take out their abilities to fight ?

Low level Police action would suffice for many of them. Invasion is a dire option. What has this to do with torture?

Ash.J.Williams

lazybones32 wrote: »

Are you surprised that a politician speaks horsesh*t?

Obama isn't the harbinger of change that he proclaimed himself to be...

Obama is nothing

Ash.J.Williams

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I see so ISIS Al-Qaeda and all them other militant groups are figments of our imagination ? These groups are a danger to the regions their in, I agree their abilities to wage war in the west is pretty weak. But are you saying just leave them to it and kill, torture, maim anyone they come across they deem not to support their cause ?

Nobody came to our aid

wp_rathead

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

It's not. It's the tripe that surrounds it in the OP.

ill admit i often find myself rolling my eyes at renegademasters threads but he is spot on in this instance imo

marienbad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I see so ISIS Al-Qaeda and all them other militant groups are figments of our imagination ? These groups are a danger to the regions their in, I agree their abilities to wage war in the west is pretty weak. But are you saying just leave them to it and kill, torture, maim anyone they come across they deem not to support their cause ?

Who said they are figments of our imagination ? But their ability to wage war on the west is nil, zero.

Yes I am saying we leave them to their killing and torture, your alternative seems to be to bomb the whole region indiscriminately into the stone age. Do you never learn ? How did these groups come about in the first place ?

Every nation has to go through its own enlightenment, reformation , democratisation at their own pace , or not if it suits them . And as long it stays within their own borders we should,for the most part, mind our own business.

darkpagandeath

marienbad wrote: »

Who said they are figments of our imagination ? But their ability to wage war on the west is nil, zero.

Yes I am saying we leave them to their killing and torture, your alternative seems to be to bomb the whole region indiscriminately into the stone age. Do you never learn ? How did these groups come about in the first place ?

Every nation has to go through its own enlightenment, reformation , democratisation at their own pace , or not if it suits them . And as long it stays within their own borders we should,for the most part, mind our own business.

Saudi is doing great, Well if your a Man and Straight and not an immigrant or a woman. Don't kid yourself that these places would quieten down if the west just left them to it. Plenty of people in the region want to live like westerners. And more people want them to live like Religious fanatics. It will always be unstable. So I guess you have no problem with Saudi ?

marienbad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Saudi is doing great, Well if your a Man and Straight and not an immigrant or a woman. Don't kid yourself that these places would quieten down if the west just left them to it. Plenty of people in the region want to live like westerners. And more people want them to live like Religious fanatics. It will always be unstable. So I guess you have no problem with Saudi ?

Your inability to see the contradictions in your own world view is staggering ! You keep giving examples that have come about as a result of over 100 years of western interference of the kind you are advocating.

And then you turn around without a trace of irony and ask others - Saudi Arabia what would you do about it !!

Sooner or later these regions will be left to their own devices , and it can't be any worse than know . If we had left them alone in the first place imagine how far along that road they might be .

So my answer is I am delusional if I believe I have anything to offer the people of Saudi , for better or worse it is their problem , either now or later.

darkpagandeath

marienbad wrote: »

Your inability to see the contradictions in your own world view is staggering ! You keep giving examples that have come about as a result of over 100 years of western interference of the kind you are advocating.

And then you turn around without a trace of irony and ask others - Saudi Arabia what would you do about it !!

Sooner or later these regions will be left to their own devices , and it can't be any worse than know . If we had left them alone in the first place imagine how far along that road they might be .

So my answer is I am delusional if I believe I have anything to offer the people of Saudi , for better or worse it is their problem , either now or later.

So Your answer is "Because westerners" Yes we have interfered, But are you saying they would be radically different if this 100 years had not happened. I very much doubt that. Could be a lot worse off or maybe just slightly better. What would have happened if countries like Russia that's not in the West was left to it and had free reign ?

marienbad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So Your answer is "Because westerners" Yes we have interfered, But are you saying they would be radically different if this 100 years had not happened. I very much doubt that. Could be a lot worse off or maybe just slightly better. What would have happened if countries like Russia that's not in the West was left to it and had free reign ?

Why not stick to what happened and not what might have happened . The region is a mess and we made it so , start from there .

darkpagandeath

marienbad wrote: »

Why not stick to what happened and not what might have happened . The region is a mess and we made it so , start from there .

Yes, The west on it's own, All on it's own made this area a problem. That's why there is no easy solution to this area. Just leaving it is not a solution either.

Grandpa Hassan

marienbad wrote: »

Why not stick to what happened and not what might have happened . The region is a mess and we made it so , start from there .

You're suggesting that Shias, Sunnis and Kurds would all be living happily together right now, in perfect harmony, and the only reason they are killing each other is because of the west? Of course not. To blame the west for all of the turmoil in the region is nonsense.

renegademaster

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

You're suggesting that Shias, Sunnis and Kurds would all be living happily together right now, in perfect harmony, and the only reason they are killing each other is because of the west? Of course not. To blame the west for all of the turmoil in the region is nonsense.

i seriously doubt anybody is blaming them for all the turmoil over there but in all fairness surely with hindsight you have to admit the west has ended up throwing a fair bit of fuel on the fire the last decade and a half, and there's been serious financial gain out of a lot of it.

if the wire was about the war on error instead of the war on drugs the famous quote would have went, follow the wmds you get terrorists and genocidal maniacs, but follow the money and you get generals, politicians and kings

marienbad

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Yes, The west on it's own, All on it's own made this area a problem. That's why there is no easy solution to this area. Just leaving it is not a solution either.

What is your solution then ?

marienbad

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

You're suggesting that Shias, Sunnis and Kurds would all be living happily together right now, in perfect harmony, and the only reason they are killing each other is because of the west? Of course not. To blame the west for all of the turmoil in the region is nonsense.

I am suggesting nothing of the kind, and to infer that I am is what is nonsense .

end of the road

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Saudi is doing great, Well if your a Man and Straight and not an immigrant or a woman. Don't kid yourself that these places would quieten down if the west just left them to it. Plenty of people in the region want to live like westerners. And more people want them to live like Religious fanatics. It will always be unstable. So I guess you have no problem with Saudi ?

murika isn't bringing "freedom and democracy" to saudi, wonder why that is

darkpagandeath

marienbad wrote: »

What is your solution then ?

I assure you if I had one I would be a very very Rich Man.

Grandpa Hassan

marienbad wrote: »

I am suggesting nothing of the kind, and to infer that I am is what is nonsense .

That is exactly what you suggested. That all the ills of the region are down to the west. Look back through your posts

"The region is a mess, and we made it so"

marienbad

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

That is exactly what you suggested. That all the ills of the region are down to the west. Look back through your posts

"The region is a mess, and we made it so"

I said a lot more than that . what would you suggest we do ? More of the same ?