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DART+ (DART Expansion)

murphaph

New propoganda here but it really whets the appetite.....who knows if we'll have the nerve to do it though....

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TheBandicoot

No. It was the proper in depth drawings of the alignment, all structures, the environmental impact report, lots of information.

Found a copy of the site here http://web.archive.org/web/20130130095342/http://www.dartundergroundrailwayorder.ie/

The drawing I would have pointed out is this one or this one (PDF), that shows the Docklands station.

L1011

Cinephille1888 wrote: »

Docklands is already unpopular with Dunboyne/Maynooth commuters due to its remoteness from transport connections and workplaces.

Peak direction trains are full to standing - deliberate under-capacity by Irish Rail isn't helping.

TheBandicoot wrote: »

I would love to show you the detailed plan of that part of the line, but unfortunately http://www.dartundergroundrailwayorder.ie/ is not longer online. I posted about this in this thread and that got lost too. It is very annoying to not have access to the plans anymore- does anyone have a mirror, or know who to contact?

http://web.archive.org/web/20110721123257/http://www.dartundergroundrailwayorder.ie/

The links I tried to PDFs work anyway

murphaph

I've no issues with the route but the station designs are poor insofar as they provide the bare minimum number of entrances/exits. They should all have multiple entrances reaching out under roads like a spider's web, to throw the catchment are of the (expensive) stations as far as possible. This is the (relatively) cheap easy win stuff.

Here in Berlin (and loads of other cities around the world) it's common for a station to have entrances at both ends of the platform, with a mezzanine level that splits and leads in 2 directions to the surface, usually either side of a busy junction. So each station ends up with 4 surface entrances typically.

Telchak

murphaph wrote: »

I've no issues with the route but the station designs are poor insofar as they provide the bare minimum number of entrances/exits. They should all have multiple entrances reaching out under roads like a spider's web, to throw the catchment are of the (expensive) stations as far as possible. This is the (relatively) cheap easy win stuff.

Here in Berlin (and loads of other cities around the world) it's common for a station to have entrances at both ends of the platform, with a mezzanine level that splits and leads in 2 directions to the surface, usually either side of a busy junction. So each station ends up with 4 surface entrances typically.

To be fair...

Docklands station will have an entrance at the Luas line and at the quays.

Pearse goes to Sandwith Street and the mainline station.

Stephen's Green has a mezzanine (shared with metro North however) that splits into two entrances. An entrance at the other end would have been good though.

Christchurch will probably have the lowest passenger numbers, so perhaps doesn't need it. Heuston however could have done with an extra entrance outside the station, perhaps at the corner of the Guinness site.

D.L.R.

murphaph wrote: »

I've no issues with the route but the station designs are poor insofar as they provide the bare minimum number of entrances/exits. They should all have multiple entrances reaching out under roads like a spider's web, to throw the catchment are of the (expensive) stations as far as possible. This is the (relatively) cheap easy win stuff.

Here in Berlin (and loads of other cities around the world) it's common for a station to have entrances at both ends of the platform, with a mezzanine level that splits and leads in 2 directions to the surface, usually either side of a busy junction. So each station ends up with 4 surface entrances typically.

The multiple entrance situation has improved in recent years, with Tara and now Pearse getting new ones.

However Connolly's Dart platforms could do with direct street access, and Grand Canal Dock needs another exit on the west bank of the canal to take full advantage of its location.

Re Dart Underground its not too bad. Bigger quibbles for me are Docklands having two separate stations, and Pearse Underground being a little farther from the mainline station that I would have liked.

Replicate

The best way to connect East Wall to the Docklands station would be a pedestrian/cycling bridge linking Church Road with the platform.

I believe this was proposed at one point and it was also included in the EW local area plan, no idea where they are at with this as no new plan has materialised.

What do you think?

AngryLips

D.L.R. wrote: »

Bigger quibbles for me are Docklands having two separate stations, and Pearse Underground being a little farther from the mainline station that I would have liked.

Are you talking about Spencer Dock DU station and the existing Docklands station? Because I was of the impression that one would replace the other.

TheBandicoot

I think that is the plan, but we'll see what happens. If closed, it would change a fairly quick and direct service from D15 to Docklands into one requiring a change at Pearse for a one-stop distance. Have to imagine that would not be as attractive.

1huge1

AngryLips wrote: »

Are you talking about Spencer Dock DU station and the existing Docklands station? Because I was of the impression that one would replace the other.

I was under the same impression but this was posted on the last page.

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Just to be clear, DU would not serve the existing station. It will serve a new underground station slightly further East roughly at Spencer Dock Luas, about 5 minutes walk from the existing Dockalnds station.

AngryLips

1huge1 wrote: »

I was under the same impression but this was posted on the last page.

I think Irish Rail would need to apply for a retention order to keep the existing station. I wonder if they do would they connect the two with some sort of underground walkway.

1huge1

AngryLips wrote: »

I think Irish Rail would need to apply for a retention order to keep the existing station. I wonder if they do would they connect the two with some sort of underground walkway.

That's what I was assuming, on the New York Subway, loads of stations are connected by an underground walkway.

murphaph

AngryLips wrote: »

I think Irish Rail would need to apply for a retention order to keep the existing station. I wonder if they do would they connect the two with some sort of underground walkway.

They're not even putting in 2 entrances at all the stations....so what do ya reckon the odds are for an underground walkway? a pleasant underground walkway, with shops etc. should be installed under Burgh Quay to link MN to Tara Street, but that isn't going to happen either unfortunately.

AngryLips

Docklands was opened to facilitate increased services into the city when the Dunboyne spur was opened. Once the re-signalling project is complete and DU is constructed the Docklands station will be made redundant because southbound Dart services will be routed through Spencer Dock station instead of Connolly and also the loop line bridge will benefit from a re-signalling project by then, this will free up capacity that will allow all Docklands-terminating services to end in Connolly/Pearse or further south. That's why Docklands station was granted planning permission for only a fixed period of time (10 years if I'm not mistaken).

Aard

murphaph wrote: »

They're not even putting in 2 entrances at all the stations....so what do ya reckon the odds are for an underground walkway? a pleasant underground walkway, with shops etc. should be installed under Burgh Quay to link MN to Tara Street, but that isn't going to happen either unfortunately.

And eminently doable considering the liklihood of a Hawkins House redevelopment.

D Trent

murphaph wrote: »

They're not even putting in 2 entrances at all the stations....so what do ya reckon the odds are for an underground walkway? a pleasant underground walkway, with shops etc. should be installed under Burgh Quay to link MN to Tara Street, but that isn't going to happen either unfortunately.

What's MN?

1huge1

Metro North

D.L.R.

murphaph wrote: »

They're not even putting in 2 entrances at all the stations....so what do ya reckon the odds are for an underground walkway? a pleasant underground walkway, with shops etc. should be installed under Burgh Quay to link MN to Tara Street, but that isn't going to happen either unfortunately.

If Tara St was underground also, a walkway would make sense. But its elevated, meaning interchanging commuters need to surface anyway. So its not practical or necessary.

Here's an idea - move the O'Connell station to the Hawkins House site instead, since that whole block is being redeveloped anyway, and its adjacent to Tara St. No Metro North for the foreseeable anyway.. might as well take advantage of changes on the ground. Tara becomes an interchange, and stick strategic exits on Burgh Quay and College St.

A station under O'Connell Bridge was a "premium option" chosen at the height of the credit bubble, and its not really great value for money IMO.

murphaph

D.L.R. wrote: »

If Tara St was underground also, a walkway would make sense. But its elevated, meaning interchanging commuters need to surface anyway. So its not practical or necessary.

They don't need to surface until safely under cover from the elements in Tara Street station though. The Quays can be bloody inhospitable in winter with horizontal driving rain and whatnot. Tara could and should arguably be fully enclosed (and will be probably if the air rights above the station are ever developed as (long) planned by CIE and in that case it's really irrelevant that it's above ground...the point is to make changing possible without needing to hold an umbrella over your head or in Dublin's case in front of your face.

D.L.R. wrote: »

Here's an idea - move the O'Connell station to the Hawkins House site instead

Potentially a good idea there alright. If they were to do that then there really would be no excuse for not physically linking both stations with an underground walkway and naming both stations the same.

Pete_Cavan

D.L.R. wrote: »

Here's an idea - move the O'Connell station to the Hawkins House site instead, since that whole block is being redeveloped anyway, and its adjacent to Tara St. No Metro North for the foreseeable anyway.. might as well take advantage of changes on the ground. Tara becomes an interchange, and stick strategic exits on Burgh Quay and College St.

A station under O'Connell Bridge was a "premium option" chosen at the height of the credit bubble, and its not really great value for money IMO.

That is a fantastic idea. Only the other day, after watching the second episode of The £15bn Railway, I was thinking is it even possible to build a station box under O'Connell Bridge given the lack of space. How would you even dig shafts there, there is just no space to work in on either side of the river? You'd have to cofferdam off a square in the middle of the Liffey (probably even two) and dig down from there. Building the station under Hawkins House as part of a redevelopment of that site would seriously cut the cost of the station (building it on a large, cleared site v building it under the river with no working space in the middle of the busiest route in the city).

No doubt there would be huge opposition from Trinity though as it would mean the alignment being shifted directly underneath them.

Cinephille1888

"No doubt there would be huge opposition from Trinity though as it would mean the alignment being shifted directly underneath them."

And there's the problem.

If we can ignore the back and forth of the College Green issue.

Hawkins house is an Ideal location for a full sized interchange.

Use Fleet Street/ College Street to access the Green line Luas.

Connect to Tara's Second entrance on Poolbeg street.

And Possibly cross the Liffey with a walkway to the lanes near Abbey Street. A lane which used to be included in O'C st plans for removal as access as I recall, some PR about removing the junkies...

But current plans only show O'C street furniture and no direct link to Luas straight out of the steps/Lift shafts.

Only issue is alignment.

The tunnel would likely have to turn directly under College street, closer to the Westin Hotel than to Trinity to protect buildings. Even at depth, with support for the buildings there would be some hesitation over this.

Considering the 15Bn£ Railway Documentary it certainly is possible to pass Trinity Like Sloan Square and other sensitive sites. But at great cost. (Also like the Jubilee Line station at Westminster)

Tearing up O'C street and Westmoreland for the Station Shafts would be an unholy mess compared to Hawkins House.

Turning back from Hawkins house to Reach Parnell Square may be a bit different.

O'C North/Parnell Street using the Carlton redevelopment site would be an even greater blessing if it could be done. Would give the super-mall there an added boost to be the station site when finished. Exits for Henry Street/O'C/Parnell and beside the Retunda and you're Golden

Of course it's more likely they will stick to the boom time plans than use Redevelopment zones and vacant sites for station boxes.

monument

Metro North seems to be off the agenda , with more and more signs that the RPA are looking at Luas to the airport and BRT will also be proceeding.

And if there's one major project going ahead, I'd prefer for it to be Dart given it's far wider impact.

Pete_Cavan

monument wrote: »

Metro North seems to be off the agenda , with more and more signs that the RPA are looking at Luas to the airport and BRT will also be proceeding.

And if there's one major project going ahead, I'd prefer for it to be Dart given it's far wider impact.

Luas and BPT have been mentioned a lot but they are not realistic options. MN is off the table for now but hopefully can be done in the not too distant future. If DU, and the station box at SSG, is built first and with some works done for the station box at the Mater, another box as part of a Hawkins House redevelopment, a decent chunk would have been taken off the cost of the project. This kind of piecemeal development of station boxes might eventually justify putting a TBM into the ground.

Oasis_Dublin

I see a lot of mention of the development of Hawkins House here. Is this aspirational, or are there concrete plans to do something with it? The most recent results for such a development seem to be from 2007 on the auld google box.

strassenwo!f

Cinephille, the problem TCD had was related to the metro going under their libraries. And you could see that, as the newest library goes around three floors below ground level.

Under Front Square itself , there are alleged to be several levels of wine cellars and such stuff. But building under the Front Square buildings probably isn't any more complicated than building under most other buildings in the city or anywhere else. Certainly not than building under Government Buildings on Merrion Street, which is currently proposed for the DART Underground project.

strassenwo!f

And, it should be said, and I forgot to mention it earlier, but it's probably not necessary to do so anyway, the main library (including the long room) is of enormous architectural value, not just in Ireland but worldwide. That's before you get to the contents of the place.

The metro was never going under there. I'm amazed the RPA even suggested it.

AngryLips

The problem with Hawkins house is the same problem that exists with the existing station at Tara Street - it's perceived to be too far from most destination points in the city centre compared to the existing proposal for a station under O'Connell Bridge.

Oasis_Dublin

If there was a station at Hawkins House, you could be at Supermacs on O'Connell Street in maybe three minutes if you crossed the Rosie Hackett Bridge. To be honest, I don't care how they do it, they just need to get rid of Hawkins House. Be it rail related, or not!

Cinephille1888

Hawkins house is now more central with the Rosie Hackett bridge.

It used to be the main location for many southside Bus Termini.

The Green Line Luas will pass it and stop on College Street.

The Screen Cinema, several Pubs, the Garda Station, and several central streets are right beside it.

Hawkins house (Dept of Health and Children), Apollo house (Dept of Social protection, and office of the Trinity College of Nursing and Midwifery), and mostly vaccant College house (Trinity spill over offices) are eyesores and rather poor buildings.

Even if there are no plans for their removal they should be. They do not fulfil their purpose as city centre offices.

With Tara Street, the Luas, and the possibility of being a good site for a station, any redevelopment would greatly increase it's popularity.

The reason it is remote is because those streets have been neglected and the towers are dingy. The previous forced dereliction of Tara street to promote the airspace over the station as being viable has also contributed to this "edge of the city" vibe. With less retail activity and almost no residence's it is a dark and dislocated place.

And yet Tara and D'Olier streets are major arteries. D'Olier is likely to be upgraded to two way traffic with the NTAs post Luas BXD road plans. Thus activity will only be increased.

I used to study in the Gas building, the Nursing campus for Trinity. D'Olier street was pretty scary/ dead between 2006/9. The Irish Times redevelopment is a nice addition, but it is mostly vacant due to opening during the recession.

In the surrounding areas the city could be a lot more dense and populated, but Hawkins house sucks a lot of this potential down. I would gladly pull the plunger, accommodate the Screen Cinema, and replace the whole block.

Mixed use ground floor, 2 or 3 sub levels for parking, a station box, and a couple of mid height towers (in the Irish context). 10-14 storeys of modern standards, some residential use, with mandatory social housing (possibly a separate tower to appease developers), and multiple amenities. Re-pave surrounding lanes and streets to promote pedestrian throughput and adequate lighting.

Hawkins house may currently be standing, but as a development opportunity it has more positive potential than possible disruption of Tara-airspace, or the brazen capitalist drive and disregard for history of the Carlton Super Mall.

The Dart's split route (pulling it back to topic) means that a re-signalled Tara Street will be on the Maynooth, Northern and Southern Lines. As it currently is, but greater frequency. Metro North Integration seems to be a very positive possibility, and with back burner plans, it could be worth re-visiting the possibility. A new city centre hub with a dedicated development connected that reaps reward after.

With O'C Bridge Station you disrupt the main streets of the city and have a deep station that adds only the traffic and trade, no new buildings or capacity to the city's core. Hawkins house afford the opportunity to increase the density of the city centre and stretch out to other key centres of employment left stranded from busy streets save for the quays. (the Ulster Bank towers)

BowWow

Personally I'd like to see Hawkins House as the site of a new Dublin Bus Station, replacing BusAras.
A walkway bridge could link to Tara Street Dart Station.
Part of Luas is outside the door.
An underground walkway could link to the O'Connell Bridge MN station.

Cinephille1888

Through a quick google I found a DIT Architecture Graduates Thesis on a redevelopment of Hawkins house, Complete with Arts Campus and Metro Station.

But can't yet post a link as I am a new user.

The student's name is Michael Bradley and the pdf is called ACHQ The City Muse Hawkins House. For those who can find it.

I got to it via Redevelophawkinshouse dot wordpress.