5 amp light socket - extension idea

Lets take a real life senario.
John and Mary happily married couple planning their daughters communion party. They are doing their own catering. Mary goes on ebay looking for a berko boiler as her friend Joan has one and states by it for keeping up with having boiling water. What ever Joan has Mary wants.
Second hand burker arrives and no plug top on it, midly disappointed she vibers John at work to pick up a plug on the way home. John being John forgot. Mary has all the catering set up in the conservatory and wants her burker working for the party in a few days, so John sees the 5 amp plug top with the lamp plugged into it and he has a blue peter moment.
He dewires the plug and wires up the plug, nothing happens then he thinks oh i must turn on light switch and woila John has the burker working and marriage saved.
So we have a 2.5kw burker connected to a 5 amp plug and socket and quite possibly through a 6 amp light switch (not uncommon). The 10 amp mcb (which i have seen quite often protecting 5 amp socket) will happily entertain the 2.5kw. It would give a 3kw burker a run for its money too.
Is John wrong to have done this? No in my book anyway. The home owner is not expected to know what a 5 amp lighting is for or not for. He saw a solution which other home owners would easily see.

Lets leave etci rules and regulations out of the matter for a minute, discuss what the op wants and is unsure about. How can the average home owner expect to know what or what not he/she can plug into a 5 amp socket?

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Who has set out this guideline?

ETCI..
lighting socket.. a socket for a portable lamp..

ie: a lamp with plug and short flex

I dont know if et101 even deals with adaptors, leads and multiple appliances
connected to a 13 amp socket or lighting socket designed for a single portable appliance or lamp

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

you plug a portable lamp fitting into each socket

you switch off the portable lamp at the wall switch location

that is the guideline...

Who has set out this guideline?

carlson wrote: »

I see the discussion has escalated beyond laymans terms!

All my rooms have dimmers connected to 5 amp sockets, I also have spots with dimmers , in fact there are dimmers in every room except for the kids rooms.( they still have switches connected to 5 amp plugs) the architect was really into lighting!

My thinking is that there are 3 x 5amp sockets in this particular room but only 2 are usable as one is up against a wall with nothing nearby

One has a standard lamp plugged in and the other has a lamp on the table beside the sofa

Is there a limit on the input to a particular socket or is the limit done on the circuit of the room. i.e. can two lamps be plugged into one 5 amp socket if the third one is never used.

I have put 5 amp sockets on a lot of lamps in the house - only on one occasion I had to get a special bulb but the rest have worked fine.

you plug a portable lamp fitting into each socket

you switch off the portable lamp at the wall switch location

that is the guideline...

carlson wrote: »

Is there a limit on the input to a particular socket or is the limit done on the circuit of the room. i.e. can two lamps be plugged into one 5 amp socket if the third one is never used.

This is the problem as there is no set guidelines.

carlson

I see the discussion has escalated beyond laymans terms!

All my rooms have dimmers connected to 5 amp sockets, I also have spots with dimmers , in fact there are dimmers in every room except for the kids rooms.( they still have switches connected to 5 amp plugs) the architect was really into lighting!

My thinking is that there are 3 x 5amp sockets in this particular room but only 2 are usable as one is up against a wall with nothing nearby

One has a standard lamp plugged in and the other has a lamp on the table beside the sofa

Is there a limit on the input to a particular socket or is the limit done on the circuit of the room. i.e. can two lamps be plugged into one 5 amp socket if the third one is never used.

I have put 5 amp sockets on a lot of lamps in the house - only on one occasion I had to get a special bulb but the rest have worked fine.

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

they tend to overheat the surroundings

While they look 'big and safe' I think they're actually a rather flawed design. The fuse holder seems to be very flimsy and prone to not sitting right which can result in overheating. Also, because the socket's not recessed, the huge pins actually only make contact at the tips (to avoid live pins touching your fingers). Again, this seems to result in hot pins if they're fully loaded.

I've also had the back come clean off a plug once while pulling it out. Seems kinda stupid to have the entire thing relying on a single screw. With Schuko plugs the screws usually go in via the sides so they aren't actually load bearing on the threads of the screw.

Not quite sure that BS1363 is all that great a system.

SpaceTime wrote: »

Wouldn't a sustained overload just blow the 13amp plug's fuse?

they tend to overheat the surroundings

Wouldn't a sustained overload just blow the 13amp plug's fuse?

in fairness they should be engraved
TABLE LAMP ONLY to prevent inadvertent misuse

but similar low level potential hazards already exist

13amp double sockets rated at 20amp
on 32 amp ring circuits

200 watt bulbs in 100watt lampholders

sustained overload of 13amp outlets with extensions

6amp switches controlling multiple halogens

etc etc

2011 wrote: »

I'm still waiting.
When will the flaw be revealed ?

Have you the popcorn ready? :cool:

SpaceTime wrote: »

Our lighting sockets most definitely are not RCD protected.
1970s/80s wiring. They're just straight off 10amp MCBs and we don't use them.
Other sockets are all RCD protected though.

Out of curiosity was that legal in the late 70s early 80s?

it's in the 3rd edition(2000) and 4th edition(2008)

and I would say goes back well before that

Robbie.G

SpaceTime wrote: »

Great!
I humbly apologise for trying to help. I won't bother you again.

I haven't a clue what your on about but I was agreeing with you

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

You took up my post all wrong, i was merely asking you a couple of simple questions.

I think you got the answers.

This has nothing to do with who knows the most forum rules or whatever else.

I was coming to the point that their is a major flaw in the way 5 amp sockets are wired.

The flaw that you mentioned in post #16 but have yet to identify.

If you waited another post you would have found out instead of going away off topic.

I'm still waiting.
When will the flaw be revealed ?

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

lighting sockets are RCD protected

thinks it's been said 3-4 times already

there's some possibility of misuse and maybe overheating at the socket but the circuit fixed wiring is protected at the distribution board

Our lighting sockets most definitely are not RCD protected.
1970s/80s wiring. They're just straight off 10amp MCBs and we don't use them.
Other sockets are all RCD protected though.

Out of curiosity was that legal in the late 70s early 80s?

SpaceTime wrote: »

In theory, no you shouldn't really make up adaptor cables for the 5amp sockets that might allow them to be used for normal devices. It would be a little bit of a bad idea as they're there to ensure nothing else is plugged into the circuit other than a lamp.

You can purchase BS546 trailing sockets in 5amp variety, http://www.videk.co.uk/section.php/2751/1/15-5amp-trailing-sockets.

I can't really see why you wouldn't be allowed to simply make up a compatible extension lead.

I've never seen a double adaptor for this kind of socket. Just remember though the maximum load allowed is 5amps (5amps X 220V = 1100W) by design, the reality is the circuit probably shouldn't have anything that heavy plugged into it anyway though.

I'd limit it to maximum 2amps for a luminary (like maximum 400-500W)

Also, I'm not entirely sure if those sockets are protected by an RCD, so to be honest, I wouldn't like using them, especially with metal-bodied lamps or anything that you're going to be touching a lot.

A cable coupler is what would spring to mind too : http://www.diy.com/nav/fix/electrical/plugs-fuses/B-and-Q-Plug-And-Socket-10-Amp-3-Pin-12728594 not sure if that's legal in Ireland or not ?

lighting sockets are RCD protected

thinks it's been said 3-4 times already

there's some possibility of misuse and maybe overheating at the socket but the circuit fixed wiring is protected at the distribution board

Robbie.G wrote: »

This was my point exactly.

Great!
I humbly apologise for trying to help. I won't bother you again.

Robbie.G

SpaceTime wrote: »

In theory, no you shouldn't really make up adaptor cables for the 5amp sockets that might allow them to be used for normal devices. It would be a little bit of a bad idea as they're there to ensure nothing else is plugged into the circuit other than a lamp.

I can't really see why you wouldn't be allowed to simply make up a extension lead

Also, I'm not entirely sure if those sockets are protected by an RCD, so to be honest, I wouldn't like using them, especially with metal-bodied lamps or anything that you're going to be touching a lot.

This was my point exactly.

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Where do i start..
You took up my post all wrong, i was merely asking you a couple of simple questions. This has nothing to do with who knows the most forum rules or whatever else.
I was coming to the point that their is a major flaw in the way 5 amp sockets are wired. If you waited another post you would have found out instead of going away off topic.

In theory, no you shouldn't really make up adaptor cables for the 5amp sockets that might allow them to be used for normal devices. It would be a little bit of a bad idea as they're there to ensure nothing else is plugged into the circuit other than a lamp.

You can purchase BS546 trailing sockets in 5amp variety, http://www.videk.co.uk/section.php/2751/1/15-5amp-trailing-sockets.

I can't really see why you wouldn't be allowed to simply make up a compatible extension lead.

I've never seen a double adaptor for this kind of socket. Just remember though the maximum load allowed is 5amps (5amps X 220V = 1100W) by design, the reality is the circuit probably shouldn't have anything that heavy plugged into it anyway though.

I'd limit it to maximum 2amps for a luminary (like maximum 400-500W)

Also, I'm not entirely sure if those sockets are protected by an RCD, so to be honest, I wouldn't like using them, especially with metal-bodied lamps or anything that you're going to be touching a lot.

An in-line cable coupler is what would spring to mind too : http://www.diy.com/nav/fix/electrical/plugs-fuses/B-and-Q-Plug-And-Socket-10-Amp-3-Pin-12728594 not sure if that's legal in Ireland or not ?

what is the major flaw?

2011 wrote: »

I agree that many people are capable of taking part in and do take part in many different activities that expose them to a degree of risk.
If not done correctly these activities can result in damage to property, injury or a fatality.
These activities include (but are not limited to) the following:

1) Scuba diving.
2) Sailing.
3) Driving a car.
4) Riding a motorbike.
5) Shooting a gun.
6) Welding.
7) Sky diving.
8) Wiring a 13A plug.
9) Crossing the road.

I also feel that some people should not attempt any of the above activities.
But it is not my opinion that counts.

What we aim to do on this forum is explain what would be generally considered "best practice" and inline with the regulations and recommendations made by the ETCI.

So when you say this:

I state that I "would not recommend" it because in my opinion this does not align with best practice.
Furthermore according to 554.0:
"Plugs and sockets for general purposes indoors must comply with I.S. 411."

You can read all about the Statutory Instrument S.I. No. 526 of 1997 that deals with this here.

In the National Rules for Electrical Installations ET101:2008 they define Portable Equipment as:
"Equipment that is designed to be moved while in operation or moved easily from one place to another while connected to the supply."

Fixed equipment is defined as:
"Equipment fastened to a support or otherwise secured at a specific location."

So when reading the regulations it is the above definitions should be referred to.

There are sockets intended solely for the connection of standard lamps or table lamps.
The ones that I am familiar with are rated at 5A.
In my opinion table lamps would fit the definition of "portable equipment" provided above .

Where do i start..
You took up my post all wrong, i was merely asking you a couple of simple questions. This has nothing to do with who knows the most forum rules or whatever else.
I was coming to the point that their is a major flaw in the way 5 amp sockets are wired. If you waited another post you would have found out instead of going away off topic.

SpaceTime wrote: »

Ah, OK.. yeah there's no reason to fit non-standard plugs to those.

My point exactly.

I know of one US tourist who brought a multi-plug adaptor to Ireland that included pins for connecting to indian plugs (BS546).
She managed to plug a hairdryer into a dimmed lamp socket and basically blew the dimmer taking out all the lights in the room.

This is the concern that I expressed in post #4.

2011 wrote: »

I am not suggesting that they are.

I am suggesting that the items in post #10 would be best supplied from a general purpose sockets.

Ah, OK.. yeah there's no reason to fit non-standard plugs to those.

I know of one US tourist who brought a multi-plug adaptor to Ireland that included pins for connecting to indian plugs (BS546).
She managed to plug a hairdryer into a dimmed lamp socket and basically blew the dimmer taking out all the lights in the room.

A lot of tourist advice on some of those adaptors / online give ridiculous information for Ireland suggesting that we use several different types of plugs and sockets. It's either based on totally obsolete information from the 1950s or it's just totally wrong.

SpaceTime wrote: »

Centrally controlled lamps aren't a general purpose though.

I am not suggesting that they are.

I am suggesting that the items in post #10 would be best supplied from a general purpose sockets.

2011 wrote: »

Yes, many different types of socket outlets are permitted by ET101 for different applications.

However according to 554 socket-outlets for "general purposes indoors" must comply with I.S. 411.

Centrally controlled lamps aren't a general purpose though. I suppose the other alternative would be 13amp BS1363 plugs with keyed pins.

I guess using Schuko (CEE 7/4) to provide compatibility with European tourists' devices in hotels wouldn't be general purpose either. I've also seen Schuko installed for an imported tumble dryer once. The machine was drawing more than 3000W so couldn't be fitted with a standard Irish plug.

Schuko's rated 16amps and generally can carry 3500-3600W without issue. I find BS1363 struggles at its max rating sometimes you end up with hot fuses and hot pins.

So, I guess that's probably complaint too as it's not 'general purpose'.

...

The one big concern I'd have about BS546 is that you can still buy plugs that don't have sheathed pins and lighting circuits aren't necessarily RCD-protected, yet you're using them with portable appliances if you've installed sockets on them (regardless of the pin configuration).

See: http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/mk-electric-round-pin-plug-three-pin-fused-white-5a/1050078116/ProductInformation.raction

I've also seen (in a hotel) CEE 7/4 plugs jammed into BS546 5amp sockets (the pins fit perfectly) However, they do not complete the earth connection and because the BS socket's not recessed, you can also shock yourself touching live pins.

SpaceTime wrote: »

Seems that BS546 (round pin UK sockets) and Schuko (Continental type 16 amp sockets) are defined in that statutory instrument too.
As specified in sub-clause 4.1 of Irish Standard 180:1973

British Standard 546:1950 including Supplement No. 1 and amendments 1953, 1961, 1969, 1977, 1982, 1987 and 1989.

As specified in sub-clause 4.3 of Irish Standard 180:1973

CEE Publication 7:1963 (Standard Sheets IV and VII) and modifications 1972, 1973, 1974 and 1981 = CEE 7 family of connectors also known as Schuko.

Yes, many different types of socket outlets are permitted by ET101 for different applications.

However according to 554 socket-outlets for "general purposes indoors" must comply with I.S. 411.

Seems that BS546 (round pin UK sockets) and Schuko (Continental type 16 amp sockets) are defined in that statutory instrument too.
As specified in sub-clause 4.1 of Irish Standard 180:1973

British Standard 546:1950 including Supplement No. 1 and amendments 1953, 1961, 1969, 1977, 1982, 1987 and 1989.

As specified in sub-clause 4.3 of Irish Standard 180:1973

CEE Publication 7:1963 (Standard Sheets IV and VII) and modifications 1972, 1973, 1974 and 1981 = CEE 7 family of connectors also known as Schuko.

Both were used historically here.

I noticed CEE 7/4 installed quite a bit in Irish hotel rooms these days too.

Robbie.G wrote: »

If the 5a sockets are controlled from a switch it's highly unlikely they're through the rcd as they're probably fead from a lighting circuit

According to National Rules for Electrical Installations 554.5.1 which refers specifically to socket-outlets intended solely for lamps "RCD protection is required for such circuits".