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Child Item

Gardai ordered to stop at red lights while chasing suspects

Sunnyisland

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/gardai-ordered-to-stop-at-red-lights-while-chasing-suspects-30427155.html

The new rules on driving mean officers who have not done an advanced training course must observe speed limits and not use their blue light while their car is in motion.

A directive given to gardai also says they must “obey the rules of the road”, which will restrict them from driving in bus lanes and going through red lights, even if the route is clear.

If caught driving outside the rules of the road and stopped by the Traffic Corps, gardai will also face fines and penalty points — just like other drivers, they have been told.

One source told the Sunday Independent: “This is ridiculous, you couldn’t make this up. If we have a call to an armed incident, we are expected to drive within the limit and not use the siren. It’s not just the uniformed lads too, it’s the people in NBCI (National Bureau of Crime Investigation) and the Special Branch who will be feeling like eejits over this.”

This is ridiculous, more bureaucratic bull****, could they not implement the new advanced course over time without the penalties above which will be causing even more low moral and ineffectiveness throughout the force.

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Cantremember

The idiocy of the "doing the course" mentality. Is there an advanced way to go through a red light? Bull****. You slow down and check, and with siren and lights you'll make it across. It's common sense. Trying to codify common sense and good local judgement is the curse of our era. There will be fewer guards on duty: they'll all be off "doing the course".

Sheeps

Cantremember wrote: »

The idiocy of the "doing the course" mentality. Is there an advanced way to go through a red light? Bull****. You slow down and check, and with siren and lights you'll make it across. It's common sense. Trying to codify common sense and good local judgement is the curse of our era. There will be fewer guards on duty: they'll all be off "doing the course".

Sure the army don't need weapons training either. It's common sense, point it at the enemy and pull the trigger. Easy right? They'll probably be all of doing the course. We'll be invaded.

HurtLocker

Cantremember wrote: »

The idiocy of the "doing the course" mentality. Is there an advanced way to go through a red light? Bull****. You slow down and check, and with siren and lights you'll make it across. It's common sense. Trying to codify common sense and good local judgement is the curse of our era. There will be fewer guards on duty: they'll all be off "doing the course".

Aren't the rules of the road a codified version of common sense? The overwhelming majority could handle driving without endangering others when the drink limits were higher, no penelty points and when they could use their phones. I was in the states recently where phone use is still legal and you'd wonder why it's such a big deal here. That's because the majority had enough common sense to use them appropriately over there. We've adapted a black and white approach which the gards enforced. It's about time they drove within the law.

Every road law passed is an attempt to codify common sense prime example being penalty points for seatbelts. The gards were exempt. It's nice to see they won't be anymore and practice what they preach

_Kaiser_

If caught driving outside the rules of the road and stopped by the Traffic Corps, gardai will also face fines and penalty points — just like other drivers, they have been told.

Surrrreee they will! It'd cause civil war in AGS if that actually happened!

But ok, let's assume they actually did get points. All they need to do is get their mate upstairs to quash them. Just throw him a few quid to cover the fine he might get...

Two senior members of the Gardai have been given hefty fines for wrongly quashing penalty points.

The inquiry found evidence of favouritism by gardai in quashing points, with many others fined for lesser amounts.

(source)

No fear of losing your job or facing criminal charges and jail time there! That's only for the "peasants"!
Don't ya just feel safe at night knowing you're "protected" by this old boys network/private security force for the well connected! :rolleyes:

El Weirdo

Luke92 wrote: »

I'm sure you will change your attitude if you're ever in a situation where you need the guards quickly. They show up an hour later saying they got caught at all the lights!

And I'd imagine you'd change yours when an untrained Garda ploughs into the side of your car whilst taking part in a high speed chase.

Manic Moran

Where I am right now, Nevada, I cannot drive one of our vehicles at all because it is equipped with blue lights. Even if I don't turn them on. I have to do the EVOC (emergency vehicles operator's course) before I can sign out the keys. That said, the course is only a week, I'm not sure what 4 weeks will do for you if it's worth that much more expense.

Cantremember

Sheeps wrote: »

Sure the army don't need weapons training either. It's common sense, point it at the enemy and pull the trigger. Easy right? They'll probably be all of doing the course. We'll be invaded.

Driving and automatic weapons .... Ok.

Amirani

Long Gone wrote: »

Only in Ireland - A complete joke of a country......:mad:

If this is "only in Ireland", then we have some of the most enlightened policy makers in the world. :eek:

However, I think you'll find the police forces in most countries can only do things they've been trained to do safely. Gun training, high speed driving etc. Of course though, you'll come out with the "only in Ireland" malarkey despite not having a clue one way or the other.

Little CuChulainn

Nobody is going to argue that it is a bad idea to have Gardai trained to drive at high speeds but that's not really the issue. The issue is this policy has been introduced before the training has been done. So now there will be a massive shortage of drivers who can respond to incidents and there is no increase in driving courses. In fact, the length and difficulty of existing courses has been increased so the number of Gardaí trained will increase even slower than before.

Amirani

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Nobody is going to argue that it is a bad idea to have Gardai trained to drive at high speeds but that's not really the issue. The issue is this policy has been introduced before the training has been done. So now there will be a massive shortage of drivers who can respond to incidents and there is no increase in driving courses. In fact, the length and difficulty of existing courses has been increased so the number of Gardaí trained will increase even slower than before.

I really hate reports like that in the Independent. What does "the vast majority" mean? Can they not give some sort of rough figures. This could relate to anything from 70% for example to 99%, which would be a huge difference in terms of the impact this would have.

Knob Longman

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Yes, let's make it even harder for the police to do their job properly.

They are not doing the jobs they should be doing anyway...;)

Raiding Growhouses while ignoring Heroin is not police work ,Its a farce..

oak5548

bluewolf wrote: »

Well ... if they haven't done the advanced training they may not be able to handle situations like that and how to hopefully avoid causing collisions and other injuries in the course of their duties
Kinda makes sense, the only thing then is trying to make sure they all get it done asap

The thing is, it wont be trained up to standard asap. They can hardly afford to train them in anything else let alone this, so its just going to be put on the long finger.
Its a step in the right direction, but bringing it in so suddenly is going to cripple the gardai and presumably other emergency services no doubt. I dont think a lot of people seem to understand this.

I doubt any of them will abide by it anyway. Would a gard just sit back and let people get away because a red light? I dont think so, the pressure will be put on him to police properly by the higher ups, but when and if something goes wrong they wont be backed up at all and be in trouble.

Little CuChulainn

Diego Simeone wrote: »

I really hate reports like that in the Independent. What does "the vast majority" mean? Can they not give some sort of rough figures. This could relate to anything from 70% for example to 99%, which would be a huge difference in terms of the impact this would have.

I doubt even the organisation knows how much this will affect things. If they did, they would never have brought in these new rules. It's just another example of the disconnect between management and members on the front line. This isn't about chasing some joyrider. The helicopter does that most of the time. This is about getting to emergencies where people are in physical danger. It won't be as noticeable in Dublin but it will definitely be noticeable in the rest of the country.

One thing I don't get is how they plan on prosecuting the Gardaí who break the rules. The exemption from things like traffic lights and driving in bus lanes is set out in law. It can't really be taken away without a change in the law.

Little CuChulainn

oak5548 wrote: »

The thing is, it wont be trained up to standard asap. They can hardly afford to train them in anything else let alone this, so its just going to be put on the long finger.
Its a step in the right direction, but bringing it in so suddenly is going to cripple the gardai and presumably other emergency services no doubt. I dont think a lot of people seem to understand this.

I doubt any of them will abide by it anyway. Would a gard just sit back and let people get away because a red light? I dont think so, the pressure will be put on him to police properly by the higher ups, but when and if something goes wrong they wont be backed up at all and be in trouble.

This is what it boils down to. They are going to put Gardaí in a position where they have to decide between helping someone or obeying the rules of the road. This is a horrible position to be put in. They will expect members to break the rules in order to do their job and happily discipline them afterwards. Members have started refusing to drive until they are given the course. It's all very well saying this is good but many more lives will be put at risk than when a Garda could go through a light because of how this will cripple the force.

oak5548

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I doubt even the organisation knows how much this will affect things. If they did, they would never have brought in these new rules. It's just another example of the disconnect between management and members on the front line. This isn't about chasing some joyrider. The helicopter does that most of the time. This is about getting to emergencies where people are in physical danger. It won't be as noticeable in Dublin but it will definitely be noticeable in the rest of the country.

One thing I don't get is how they plan on prosecuting the Gardaí who break the rules. The exemption from things like traffic lights and driving in bus lanes is set out in law. It can't really be taken away without a change in the law.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

This is what it boils down to. They are going to put Gardaí in a position where they have to decide between helping someone or obeying the rules of the road. This is a horrible position to be put in. They will expect members to break the rules in order to do their job and happily discipline them afterwards. Members have started refusing to drive until they are given the course. It's all very well saying this is good but many more lives will be put at risk than when a Garda could go through a light because of how this will cripple the force.

Yep, I just imagine its extremely frustrating for gardai when general public and people who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about start critisizing a part of their job that they've been doing fine for years and just say "tough" or "so what?". Its easy for them to say it, but imagine everyone hopping on the bandwagon about your own job and critisizing you?
Not so nice if they could only understand that.

InReality

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

But if the car thiefs also read these new rules and also stop at red lights to make it more sporting when being chased by guards then all is fair.

I've seen this on happen on TV - quite often actually .

Sir Arthur Daley

Do guards do training to say its permitted to use mobile phones while driving?

Knob Longman

smellmepower wrote: »

That's good news,though I'd imagine it was a decision based around budgetary constraints and a rush to get more boots on the ground due to falling force strength more than anything else.

Students coming out of Templemore for the last 15/20 years not to have an advance driving course done after two years training is still ridiculous in itself.

The cops in Police Academy probably got better training....:pac:

Tail Docker

oak5548 wrote: »

Yep, I just imagine its extremely frustrating for gardai when general public and people who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about start critisizing a part of their job that they've been doing fine for years and just say "tough" or "so what?". Its easy for them to say it, but imagine everyone hopping on the bandwagon about your own job and critisizing you?
Not so nice if they could only understand that.

If I don't have the correct training in place, the State will happily prosecute me to the full rigour of the law. If I get a new job and it needs a certain skillset that we don't have, I have to jump through their hoops to get those courses completed. And that applies to everyone. Businesses don't get a pass because they need to drive or operate somthing urgently or face severe losses, so why should the state get a pass?

They make the rules, so why shouldn't they be expected to then follow them? They don't let someone jump into a Dublin Bus and head off with only a car licence, why should they let someone jump into a fast car that is allowed jump lights, travvel at high speed and engage in chases? And if it is a dumb thing to bring in the rules they have, well then it's their dumbness, so they can sort it out. God knows, they have enough staff and money to do it, they just need to decide it is a priority, as opposed to pi55ing it up a wall on somthing else.

C.K Dexter Haven

Awkward Badger wrote: »

Never gonna happen though is it ?

No. It won't. Complete nonsense and a non- story.

But...maybe a major legal loophole that needs to be plugged. I can see lots of legs...

..no wait..,legal chalk energies ......

...er no, that was my auto correct taking over....

..,what I meant to say was legal challenges . There I said it!

Legal Chalk Energies! Yep!

What's the score? Still nill all?

limklad

bluewolf wrote: »

Well ... if they haven't done the advanced training they may not be able to handle situations like that and how to hopefully avoid causing collisions and other injuries in the course of their duties
Kinda makes sense, the only thing then is trying to make sure they all get it done asap

I fully agree, especially when they cars they have are sh*te. I see police forces in many other countries have much better specifications to deal with high speed chases. My own old corolla is a far better state than lots of gardai cars and I would not dare to speed with it, out of my own safety. I have seen one of their cars last year, that was very close to bald tyres. If that was you or I, we be done for it for lack of threads.

I blame the gardai management to this fiasco, for lack of training and re training up to now. Poor planning and poor knowledge of the state of equipment they have or not have for this matter.

I believe the training facilities and up skills have been neglected for many years now, within the garda force.

AryaStark

I would have thought that Gardai driving would already have passed advanced training. Hopefully this means that they will get the training they should already have.

Little CuChulainn

Tail Docker wrote: »

If I don't have the correct training in place, the State will happily prosecute me to the full rigour of the law. If I get a new job and it needs a certain skillset that we don't have, I have to jump through their hoops to get those courses completed. And that applies to everyone. Businesses don't get a pass because they need to drive or operate somthing urgently or face severe losses, so why should the state get a pass?

Because, like it or not, the job of a Garda is more important than yours.

Tail Docker wrote: »

They make the rules, so why shouldn't they be expected to then follow them? They don't let someone jump into a Dublin Bus and head off with only a car licence, why should they let someone jump into a fast car that is allowed jump lights, travvel at high speed and engage in chases? And if it is a dumb thing to bring in the rules they have, well then it's their dumbness, so they can sort it out. God knows, they have enough staff and money to do it, they just need to decide it is a priority, as opposed to pi55ing it up a wall on somthing else.

That's great and all but it's not the Gardaí that will be waiting after dialing 999, it's the public. It's not the problem of AGS to sort out, it's everyones problem now.

No Pants

realies wrote: »

This is ridiculous, more bureaucratic bull****, could they not implement the new advanced course over time without the penalties above which will be causing even more low moral and ineffectiveness throughout the force.

How is this bureaucratic? Not allowing a guard to engage in a pursuit because he hadn't filled out a form would be bureaucratic. Not allowing a guard to engage in a pursuit because he hasn't been trained how to do it properly is entirely reasonable.

And unless this new course has only just become available, they've had time to implement it. Reading the article suggests that it has, yet some Gardai haven't passed the course.

Tail Docker

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Because, like it or not, the job of a Garda is more important than yours.

Fully agreed. All the more reason to have people who are properly trained in doing that important job, no? Or is there a part of the current Irish standard driving test that covers high-speed driving and pursuit? Does one of the 12 mandatory 1 hour driving lessons cover it? Or for the ones that got a licence before that was required, did the spin around the boreens with the Da cover it?

Little CuChulainn

Tail Docker wrote: »

Fully agreed. All the more reason to have people who are properly trained in doing that important job, no? Or is there a part of the current Irish standard driving test that covers high-speed driving and pursuit? Does one of the 12 mandatory 1 hour driving lessons cover it? Or for the ones that got a licence before that was required, did the spin around the boreens with the Da cover it?

I already said the training was necessary. But like it or not, the infrastructure is not there to provide that training in a time frame that won't cripple the force in the mean time. This isn't all about driving at high speeds dangerously. Gardai have always been subject to the law on careless driving and dangerous driving, trained or not. This is about things like driving in a bus lane or double parking outside the scene of a crime, things that are necessary to respond in time to calls.

Reformed Character

I cant see any judge in the country convicting a Garda for a traffic violation while going to the scene of an emergency.
That said, AGS cannot be allowed to risk the lives of the public by allowing untrained drivers to engage in pursuit or high speed driving, they need to get their house in order.

Bob the Builder

Awkward Badger wrote: »

Never gonna happen though is it ?

Could, if a criminal case went to court.

Then the actual criminal would get off because the Garda that apprehended him would also be regarded as having committed an illegal act.

Gannicus

Would it not make sense for the government to include the advanced driver training into their training down in Templemore so that when they toll out they are already qualified? But hey this is Ireland we just f**k one thing up after another in this country

CrazyRabbit

The issue is not these new rules. The issue is that so many Gardai haven't already been given this advanced driver training and have been involved in potentially hundreds or thousands of high speed journeys/pursuits without it.

How many lives have been put at risk because this training was not given by default to all Garda who drive?