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Drinking, consent, and rape

monkry

I've been dating a girl who is a hardcore feminist, for the last while. I'm on board with most of the things she believes in, but something has just come up that has led to an argument between us.

She tells me that a woman cannot give consent when she is drunk. That's reasonable. If a guy has sex with a girl who says no, or is too drunk to say no, that's rape in my book. However, she says that there are NO circumstances in which a girl can consent to sex if she is drinking. This includes if the girl initiates and drives the whole thing herself. I find that hard to swallow because that makes every guy I know a serial rapist, and every girl I know a serial rape victim. It also means married couples that I know got together after a rape.

To be clear, I'm not talking about a girl who is so clearly blind drunk that she doesn't know what she's doing any more. I'm talking about someone who has had a few drinks, is reasonably well on, but knows exactly what they're doing at the same time. I equate it to a guy who gets drunk, cheats on his partner, knowing full well at the time that he has a partner and that he is doing wrong, but does it anyway. The guy is a cheat in this situation, so why not a girl?

She is a student of this stuff and very well versed on it, so basically she thinks my opinion on this is an uninformed joke. Is my thinking completely backwards on this? I'm doubting myself now, I would like to here from other people.

mike_ie wrote: »

Hi OP,

seeing this is more of a general discussion of a point of view than a personal issue, I think that you'd get a better range of responses in the Humanities forum. Please note that their charter applies from here on in.

Regards,
Mike

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December2012

Can you agree to disagree or is this something that will affect your relationship?

louisenf2014

This sounds really ridiculous to me.

I'm guessing this girl is fairly young??

Yes, when a girl is drunk to the point where she doesn't know who you are or where she is, taking advantage of her could be seen as rape...

I'm a woman and have loved the idea of my BF calling over, having 3 or 4 glasses of wine and pulling him up to bed when we're very tipsy....it's crazy to suggest that is rape. Equally, if the man is drinking too then what's to say the woman involved isn't raping him.

If a girl is drinking and decides to sleep with someone who she would NEVER sleep with while she was sober then maybe you can argue that her capacity to consent was compromised.

I just think this sounds off the wall to be honest.

suicide_circus

Hardcore feminist or not, she is talking absolute nonsense I'm afraid.

Devine Wind 55

I don't see this relationship progressing to the next level, tbh...

LegacyUser

monkry wrote: »

I've been dating a girl who is a hardcore feminist, for the last while. I'm on board with most of the things she believes in, but something has just come up that has led to an argument between us.

She tells me that a woman cannot give consent when she is drunk. That's reasonable. If a guy has sex with a girl who says no, or is too drunk to say no, that's rape in my book. However, she says that there are NO circumstances in which a girl can consent to sex if she is drinking. This includes if the girl initiates and drives the whole thing herself. I find that hard to swallow because that makes every guy I know a serial rapist, and every girl I know a serial rape victim. It also means married couples that I know got together after a rape.

To be clear, I'm not talking about a girl who is so clearly blind drunk that she doesn't know what she's doing any more. I'm talking about someone who has had a few drinks, is reasonably well on, but knows exactly what they're doing at the same time. I equate it to a guy who gets drunk, cheats on his partner, knowing full well at the time that he has a partner and that he is doing wrong, but does it anyway. The guy is a cheat in this situation, so why not a girl?

She is a student of this stuff and very well versed on it, so basically she thinks my opinion on this is an uninformed joke. Is my thinking completely backwards on this? I'm doubting myself now, I would like to here from other people.

I would disagree with your girlfriend. I consider myself to be a hardcore feminist also and though I drink little let me assure that after one or two drinks I am still more than capable of consent. If I was blind drunk I mightn't be but, as you said, that's not what we're talking about.

Little Acorn

Do you and your girlfriend ever have a few drinks together and then have sex (like lots of couples do)? Tbh if I was a guy in your shoes I'd be very worried about how she would view this as non consensual. Risky territory. Her views just seem too over the top to me.

I can completely agree that people can get into an extreme drunken state where they really are not capable of giving informed consent, however from your post I'm getting that she even views a woman who is happy but drunk and horny initiating sex with her boyfriend as being raped.
"under NO circumstances in a which a girl can consent to sex if drunk" - that would imply to met that if she ever gets tipsy and initiates sex with you, she would view it as rape if you went along with it.

Just no. Don't agree.

Manco

Bottom line, it's vital that consent is agreed on before having sex. Obviously alcohol is a barrier to that in many situations, perhaps not so after one or two pints.

strandroad

There is no yes or no answer. People do stupid things when drunk and all depends on the context.
If a drunk guy is egged on by a stripper and gives her €5k tips feeling like he's on top of the world... Was it his conscious decision he can fully stand behind in the morning or was he influenced, conned, etc? Depends on the circumstances...

ForEffsSake

To be honest, she doesn't sound much of a feminist. Sorry i don't mean to be rude about your girlfriend but i think she seems quite immature as well.
To me (female), being a feminist means you want to be treated equally and not discriminated against because of your gender. Your girlfriend seems to want women to be treated as gombeens who don't know their own mind after half a glass of pinot grigio.
I agree that if a women is drunk or drugged to the point of not being of sound mind and would not consent to sex with the person sober then it is rape and the fellow's a class A pr*ck. But women have brains and some like a drink and sometimes they get braver and initiate something they wouldn't have without said drink.

If you want real equality then you have to take the responsibility for your own actions. I'm sure a lot of women regret doing something after having too much drink but they don't go around blaming someone else for it!
And as for belittling your opinion......well that smells of bullying if you ask me.....

monkry

Just to clarify. She is not talking about drinking and having sex in a relationship, or if it had been agreed when both parties were sober. Basically she is talking about when a girl gets drunk and initiates sex with a guy she never previously had sex with, or intimated that she wished to do that, when she was sober.

She says she has been raped several times in the past. I don't know the details, and am afraid to ask now, because it might just lead to another huge argument.

It's worrying for me because this girl does like to go out and get drunk + also most of her friends are guys, some of them who are complete horn-dogs. I'm worried that some night something will happen, and we're both going to have a completely different take on what happened. Which will upset both of us greatly.

I guess that if my opinion on this isn't completely backward, and I don't need to adjust it, I need to think seriously about whether I can continue with this relationship.

She is 28 btw.

Devine Wind 55

Run, run fast...

Tokyo

Hi OP,

seeing this is more of a general discussion of a point of view than a personal issue, I think that you'd get a better range of responses in the Humanities forum. Please note that their charter applies from here on in.

Regards,
Mike

Awkward Badger

It seems like she's using the ingestion of alcohol as the determining factor as it changes the persons behaviour from what it normally would be. So in that case maybe she feels like you can't have an arbitrary line between one pint and twenty to determine where the persons ability to consent stops. At which point is the person acting contrary to what they normally would ?

The problem is its not the alcohol that's the issue is the mental state of the person involved and whether or not they have the capacity to understand what they are consenting to. Normally a drink or two wont decrease anyone's ability to understand that to any real degree so at that point they are still in a fit mental state to be giving consent. Regardless of whether or not they would normally do it, if they still have the capacity to understand what they are consenting to consent can be deemed to have been given at that time.

Its a tough one to get to grips with because consent can be obtained in numerous ways and a person can have a different understanding of events after the effects of alcohol has worn off. But the term rape itself isn't something anyone should be throwing around to refer to past sexual partners on the grounds that they don't want to accept responsibility for their own part in a sexual encounter which seems to be the case here. Being drunk does not remove any obligation to take responsibility for yourself and your actions so it does not automatically remove a persons ability to consent.

Merkin

monkry wrote: »

She says she has been raped several times in the past. I don't know the details, and am afraid to ask now, because it might just lead to another huge argument.

Woooooah there. Rape is a life-changing event with far reaching and permanent repercussions for the victim and is not a term to be bandied about glibly.

Has your girlfriend actually been raped? (And I appreciate that the majority of rape cases are not instances whereby the perpetrator attacks from behind and drags the victim up a dark alley by the way). Has she genuinely been the victim of sexual violence?

Or us she using her own skewed, and frankly dangerous, definition of rape to define a number of instances of drunken sex?

Because if it's the latter my friend I'd be running for the hills tbh, she's a liability.

username123

Actually this pisses me off. She is making light of what an actual rape is.

It absolutely cannot be said that every instance of sex that occurs when even one drink has been taken by the woman is rape. It's a really backward and sexist view. Are men not also being raped in such circumstances then?

I would be very very careful with someone who holds such an odd definition of rape and consent.

diveout

username123 wrote: »

Actually this pisses me off. She is making light of what an actual rape is.

It absolutely cannot be said that every instance of sex that occurs when even one drink has been taken by the woman is rape. It's a really backward and sexist view. Are men not also being raped in such circumstances then?

I would be very very careful with someone who holds such an odd definition of rape and consent.

There are ideologies which hold this view. And women are believing it. Heck even courts are.

Nino Brown

A feminist, who thinks women are incapable of making basic decisions after a drink? While men maintain the ability? Not exactly consistent with what most feminists would think I'd imagine.

Buzz Killington the third

Apart from being idiotic, she sounds dangerous. She has an agenda and if I was you I would get away from her right now! I'd say my goodbyes and run as fast as I could. Never look back(she'd probably consider it stalking) and find yourself a normal woman!

MrBobbyZ

Its interesting that she differenciates between consent to sex in a relationship after a few drinks and a more casual sexual encounter.
Surely a persons ability to make a decision after a few drinks is the same for both.
Her idea that it is always rape is pretty extreme, narrow minded and frankly total rubbish in my opinion.
Also, from a general relationship point of view, her inability to accept your opinion on this would worry me greatly.

I'd run! In fact all she'd have of me is a memory of me running!

Wibbs

Nino Brown wrote: »

A feminist, who thinks women are incapable of making basic decisions after a drink? While men maintain the ability?

Indeed. In this worldview women are always victims. Of men of course and never themselves. They have no agency, even if in a case like this they're buying the drinks themselves. The agency and responsibility must be maintained in the man and more than that and even dafter he has to take responsibility for her as well as himself. Plus the woman can decide at a later date, maybe even far down the line that a line was crossed. Nice one. As you say it's suggesting women are incapable of their own decisions while drunk while men are perfectly capable of doing so and are expected to do so. They're basically suggesting that grown women are children and men are adults. Fantastically ironic that this is claimed by some to be feminist thought.

Not exactly consistent with what most feminists would think I'd imagine.

Most feminists in the real world, but the interwebs would be awash with a similar attitude. The OP's girlfriend didn't lick this from a stone.

If this was still in PI I'd be suggesting he runs and runs fast. This will only get nuttier with time, not less and it could get dangerous. Oh and it will always be your fault.

diveout

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed. In this worldview women are always victims. Of men of course and never themselves. They have no agency, even if in a case like this they're buying the drinks themselves. The agency and responsibility must be maintained in the man and more than that and even dafter he has to take responsibility for her as well as himself. Plus the woman can decide at a later date, maybe even far down the line that a line was crossed. Nice one. As you say it's suggesting women are incapable of their own decisions while drunk while men are perfectly capable of doing so and are expected to do so. They're basically suggesting that grown women are children and men are adults. Fantastically ironic that this is claimed by some to be feminist thought.

Most feminists in the real world, but the interwebs would be awash with a similar attitude. The OP's girlfriend didn't lick this from a stone.

If this was still in PI I'd be suggesting he runs and runs fast. This will only get nuttier with time, not less and it could get dangerous. Oh and it will always be your fault.

It's basically a 1950s neo puritan morality on sex. And it's naive to think this is just interweb feminism. It's all over the place.

Wibbs

Ah it's really not D. Not in my experience anyway. It's much more evident on the interwebs. Loud bloggists, some websites and the like. Yes you can have concentrated pockets of it in the real world QV US women's studies college faculties and courses and yes some of it does spill into the wider world as a nonsense given; IE the "1 in 4" stat, but it's not nearly so widespread or important among the vast majority out there. Certainly not in Ireland. I'd liken it to the "manosphere" on the interwebs, extreme in nature, small in number with a larger reading audience but again on a day to day basis for the rest of us, it's of minimal impact.

louisenf2014

So.....if your GF goes out on a night out with her mates, has a few drinks and sleeps with one of her horny pals that you mentioned. Will she claim this was rape and she didn't cheap on you?

Run, Run like the wind! This girl sounds bonkers, immature and a little stupid IMHO

nbar12

Grab your balls and run...she sounds like a nutjob who will one day ruin your life by accusing you of 'raping' her.

Penny Tration

Op, what your girlfriend is saying is actually hugely insulting to actual rape victims.

A few drinks, or even being drunk, does not mean you can't give informed consent. If you're paralytic, yes, it's rape. But my god, I'm tipsy at the moment. That doesn't make it rape if I sleep with my boyfriend tonight.

Your girlfriend's views are frankly scary. Saying she was raped several times doesn't ring true with me.

If someone genuinely believes that one drink makes any sex she has rape, they have serious issues and are hugely belittling people who haveaactually been raped, rather than pretending to have been

The Corinthian

monkry wrote: »

She is a student of this stuff and very well versed on it, so basically she thinks my opinion on this is an uninformed joke. Is my thinking completely backwards on this? I'm doubting myself now, I would like to here from other people.

As has been pointed out, it is her position that is 'completely backwards'. As you point out she is "a student of this stuff", which I presume means women's studies or similar and unfortunately such courses have long been little more than indoctrination centers for this kind of extremist misandry for a long time, with many of those graduating going on to make careers in the media, NGO's and politics.

As to her position, it is deeply flawed as Wibbs and others have pointed out and it is quite easy to demonstrate this to her; just ask her, if a drunk woman has sex with a sober man, is she committing rape?

This is where you'll get the 'that's different' defense (and legally speaking this is correct in Ireland as you literally cannot commit rape unless you have a penis). However even if not rape, by her logic it would still be sexual assault and she would have to logically accept this - otherwise she's adopting a position whereby the only difference left are the genders of the victim and perpetrator, and this would simply reveal her argument to be based simply on sexism.

Two other scenarios you could ask her on are where two, equally drunk, gay men have sex. Who's the rapist? Two lesbians? These will also probably stump her and she'll most likely turn to ridiculing your position and otherwise avoid responding.

As such, I'd end my relationship with her were I you. At best you're with someone who has a very unhealthy attitude towards men, and at worst one day she may well cry rape with you.

Wibbs wrote: »

Not in my experience anyway. It's much more evident on the interwebs. Loud bloggists, some websites and the like. Yes you can have concentrated pockets of it in the real world QV US women's studies college faculties and courses and yes some of it does spill into the wider world as a nonsense given; IE the "1 in 4" stat, but it's not nearly so widespread or important among the vast majority out there. Certainly not in Ireland. I'd liken it to the "manosphere" on the interwebs, extreme in nature, small in number with a larger reading audience but again on a day to day basis for the rest of us, it's of minimal impact.

Not sure about that. You don't have to blog on the Interweb to be a racist, for example.

Most people keep their views to themselves because it's simply not practical to go around and potentially make enemies in real life. As such, those you cite may be more vocal about their views, but that does not imply that they even represent the bulk of those with such views. I understand that this is not in your experience, but if our experiences were accurate barometers of demographics, most people would have an IQ over 120 in my experience, which is not true and simply reflects those people I associate with professionally and socially.

Also, and most disturbingly, such is the saturation of propaganda regarding such views, that it is inevitable that more and more people will end up accepting them. The whole 'victim blaming' paradigm has at this stage become ridiculous, for example.

diveout

Wibbs wrote: »

Ah it's really not D. Not in my experience anyway. It's much more evident on the interwebs. Loud bloggists, some websites and the like. Yes you can have concentrated pockets of it in the real world QV US women's studies college faculties and courses and yes some of it does spill into the wider world as a nonsense given; IE the "1 in 4" stat, but it's not nearly so widespread or important among the vast majority out there. Certainly not in Ireland. I'd liken it to the "manosphere" on the interwebs, extreme in nature, small in number with a larger reading audience but again on a day to day basis for the rest of us, it's of minimal impact.

Honestly I think it's impossible to know or say. Ostensibly reasonable normal people in real life can have these sub personalities that emerge on the web. I don't know if it's the subconcious nature of text which sets them free only to evaporate once it is set free or if it's the lack of social convention keeping them in check [like how people pick their nose in front of their dog or in their car when they think no one is looking]. And if this is the case if one self is more real than the other.

To consider also that academia is absolutely riddled with it, and let's face it most of our legislators and judges do emerge from these institutions. Yes on day to day basis it's on minimal impact- that is until you one day find yourself in the line of fire. For example, just to go slightly OT, if you found yourself in the unfortunate position of being attacked in the house by your girlfriend or mother or sister and you called the police, there is a significant chance that YOU would be the one who ended up getting arrested. And that is not even due to crazy radical feminism, that is just due to normal feminism's influence. Or let's say one day a woman had some serious doubts over her own consent or possibly regretted her consent- then yes it would have very real consequences. A rape charge has a whole set of inhibitors build into it to start with because very few people are going to want to have power point presentations of their genital areas displayed in a courtroom and go through all that forensic examination, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the ideologies have not intercepted to reinterpret a sexual experience as a rape. Nothing spreads so fast as fear. So it may not feel real on a day to day basis, until it actually happens to you.

And in my experience, which is obviously as limited as yours, I have encountered plenty of it, to believe that it might be a small minority, but it is a signficantly vocal minority nonetheless and one that does get heard.

Wibbs

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not sure about that. You don't have to blog on the Interweb to be a racist, for example.

Most people keep their views to themselves because it's simply not practical to go around and potentially make enemies in real life. As such, those you cite may be more vocal about their views, but that does not imply that they even represent the bulk of those with such views. I understand that this is not in your experience, but if our experiences were accurate barometers of demographics, most people would have an IQ over 120 in my experience, which is not true and simply reflects those people I associate with professionally and socially.

Good points TC.

Also, and most disturbingly, such is the saturation of propaganda regarding such views, that it is inevitable that more and more people will end up accepting them. The whole 'victim blaming' paradigm has at this stage become ridiculous, for example.

"shaming"(aimed exclusively at women by men), "rape culture", "one in four", unequal pay etc could be added to that list and in every case are highly debatable or downright inaccuracies masquerading as facts/political point scoring.

diveout wrote: »

To consider also that academia is absolutely riddled with it, and let's face it most of our legislators and judges do emerge from these institutions. Yes on day to day basis it's on minimal impact- that is until you one day find yourself in the line of fire. For example, just to go slightly OT, if you found yourself in the unfortunate position of being attacked in the house by your girlfriend or mother or sister and you called the police, there is a significant chance that YOU would be the one who ended up getting arrested. And that is not even due to crazy radical feminism, that is just due to normal feminism's influence.

True enough. Actually given your example, I saw a friend of a friend who was at the receiving end of spousal abuse being asked to leave his house(which he paid for before his partner came along) by the police after an incident one evening where she attacked him leaving him cut and bruised. She claimed he hit her and that was that. Even though he was the one injured and is a very big bloke. Add in that there are precious few if any resources for abused men like him. Yep my previous angle was a bit arseways alright.

limklad

Devine Wind 55 wrote: »

I don't see this relationship progressing to the next level, tbh...

I fully agree. When I was dating, I usually end the date as soon as I find out the woman is a feminist. They are illogical and do not thinks thing through properly and get very emotional if they feminist beliefs are criticizes or challenged. If you try to quote real surveys to counter theirs, that were verifiable that match other studies, They complain and attacked back. They complain that I am generalizing all women, which is not true , i only refer to Feminists or those who believe in feminist propaganda.

And Yes OP I general avoid sex with women who have been drinking or crying, mood swings or insecure or vane, or on drugs etc. They will cry foul if they did not enjoy the sex and cry rape.
Yes, It does reduce the pool of women to have sex with. I rather be free than than have a baby with a terrible woman.

In collage there was one guy who got into serious trouble when a drunk girl who came heavily onto him looking for sex in the pub, then cry rape the next morning because she did not remember it and the she had taken drink with her friends (not brought by him) reduces her inhibitions. He thought "he hit the jackpot", a attractive girl demanding sex with him. She relies in the morning after, that he was not "a stud", and she said she had her "standards", whatever that means. He was lucky that there was plenty of witness, both female and male, and the witness statement (which match his statement) and her statement did not match those who were there that night. Men avoid her like she had the plague in Collage after that, she complained bitterly about it.

Femenist inspire laws and attitudes are making it a dangerous world for dating or sex in general and it a mine field with feminists women. I much prefer to walk through a real mine field than date a feminist. I envy gay men especially when I am not gay.

Wibbs

limklad wrote: »

I fully agree. I usually end the date as soon as I find out the woman is a feminist. They are illogical and do not thinks thing through properly and get very emotional if they feminist beliefs are criticizes or challenged.

Boys oh boys I don't even know where to start with this.