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Child Item

Lidl Alcohol Purchase

sickmyduck

Hi all
Im 23 year old (and look my age) I was in lidl Parnell Street today and i was buying a pack of bulmers. I got to the desk , asked for id , produced it and the girl at the check out asked my cousin who was standing next to me for her id.. now she is 24 has a 4 year old son and looks alot older than she actually is.. she had not got id and the girl at the check out said she could not serve me even thou I was purchasing alcohol with my money and my id and my cousin doesn't even drink! I asked politely could i speak to her manager and she called the security guard to which i said " I am very sorry i actually asked to speak to a manager and not a security guard could you get the manager please" finally the manager arrived and agreed I would not be allowed to be served because the person I was standing next to did not have Id ... Now lets say i was 32 and not 23 and had my 12 year old son with me and was buying my weekly shop would she still not serve me cause the 12 year old did not have ID ... I personally dont see a difference and I find it completely discriminatory. I was made feel extremely embaressed from the security being called and the scene that was made I find this really unfair and inappropriate has this ever happened to anyone else!?

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Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Ah that happened me in Tesco before. Exactly the same situation, and the manager backed up the till girl. They gave the story about both people needing ID, so I asked the manager that if a mother came in with her two children and had a bottle of wine in with her grocery shopping, would they refuse to serve her since the kids were underage?

She didn't directly answer the question, just said they'd make an exception for me just one time.

No Pants

What a weird thing to do. I don't think I've ever purchased alcohol in Lidl, but just because I might some day, I need to arrange for the person next to me in the queue to have ID?

Little CuChulainn

sickmyduck wrote: »

Now lets say i was 32 and not 23 and had my 12 year old son with me and was buying my weekly shop would she still not serve me cause the 12 year old did not have ID

She probably would not. That is their policy and has been for a while.

Bepolite

Lets say your 13 year old daughter is stood next to a 54 year old man that plies her with booze and then rapes her. Or lets just say that a retailer can serve who ever they like and that people having a go because they couldn't get a few tinnies actually detracts from people that are actually discriminated against.

Sorry OP but the retailer was trying to be responsible, perhaps got it wrong, but they are erring on the right side of the doubt.

I apologise for my tone but this has been done to death over and over again here, in after hours, in the consumer forum and probably a dozen other places.

zarquon

Not sure what the legal discussion is here at all. The law is the law and anyone buying booze needs ID. If you are in a purchasing group albeit a small one, everyone in the group needs to have ID.

.

ekimiam

zarquon wrote: »

If you are in a purchasing group albeit a small one, everyone in the group needs to have ID.

.

Does it say that, exactly, anywhere in law? dont think so , they are being over cautious about it.

they have always had strange policies , when they opened first they insisted the would only take a Garda age card for id, I refused to get one, and they refused me alcohol when I produced my passport.

Bepolite

ekimiam wrote: »

Does it say that, exactly, anywhere in law? dont think so , they are being over cautious about it.

they have always had strange policies , when they opened first they insisted the would only take a Garda age card for id, I refused to get one, and they refused me alcohol when I produced my passport.

Because the only defence available to selling alcohol on an off-licence to a minor is that a Garda age card was produced. Not a strange policy in the slightest really.

ekimiam

Bepolite wrote: »

Because the only defence available to selling alcohol on an off-licence to a minor is that a Garda age card was produced. Not a strange policy in the slightest really.

what ? i wasnt a minor, and whats that do for defence?

its a very strange request, that no other drink selling establishment I ever encountered enforced.

Bepolite

ekimiam wrote: »

what ? i wasnt a minor, and whats that do for defence?

A defence is something presented in court when one is accused of a crime/the defendant in a civil case. The only defence to an off-licence selling alcohol to a minor is that they produced a Garda age card. Not that they produced a passport/birth cert./driving licence/letter from thier ma.

ekimiam wrote: »

its a very strange request, that no other drink selling establishment I ever encountered enforced.

A drinking establishment is not an off-licence. An off-licence refers to the type of licence where one can purchase alcohol, take it away and drink it in a field ones own home.

ekimiam

but there selling it to me! who is on record on a passport not to be a minor! wheres the difficulty there?

no other OFF LICENCE of any description (ie drink selling ) I ever encountered enforced this.

and i dont think lidl did for long either

Little CuChulainn

ekimiam wrote: »

but there selling it to me! who is on record on a passport not to be a minor! wheres the difficulty there?

no other OFF LICENCE of any description (ie drink selling ) I ever encountered enforced this.

and i dont think lidl did for long either

If a seventeen year old buys alcohol using a fake Garda Id the shop are not legally responsible. If they purchase it using a fake ID of any other kind they are responsible. They only accept Garda age card so they cannot ever be held responsible.

Bepolite

ekimiam wrote: »

but there selling it to me! who is on record on a passport not to be a minor! wheres the difficulty there?

no other OFF LICENCE of any description (ie drink selling ) I ever encountered enforced this.

and i dont think lidl did for long either

Many of the larger retailers (the ones with in-house counsel no doubt) have or have had this policy. Tesco being one.

ekimiam

im looking for the legislation for it now, fair point tho guys ill eat my hat!

but my original question was.... does it say anywhere that the whole group needs ID or Garda Age card?

and again, I never experienced it anywhere, after that.

Yawns

It's a Lidl policy rather than the law they are enforcing. They've always enforced it from what I have witnessed myself at various Lidl stores around the country. If a group of youths or even just a young enough couple are buying alcohol, then they generally ask for ID for the group to err on the side of caution.

ekimiam

Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1988, section 31
4) In any proceedings against a person for a contravention of subsection (1) or (2) of this section, it shall be a defence for such person to prove that the person in respect of whom the charge is brought produced to him an age card relating to such person or that he had other reasonable grounds for believing that such person was over the age of 18 years, or, if the person is charged with permitting another person to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor contrary to the said subsection (1) or (2), to prove that an age card was produced by the person concerned to that other person or that that other person had other reasonable grounds for believing as aforesaid.

the bit i find interesting is "or that he had other reasonable grounds for believing that such person was over the age of 18 years"

would a passport not be reasonable grounds? as reasonable as an age card ?

Little CuChulainn

ekimiam wrote: »

Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1988, section 31
4) In any proceedings against a person for a contravention of subsection (1) or (2) of this section, it shall be a defence for such person to prove that the person in respect of whom the charge is brought produced to him an age card relating to such person or that he had other reasonable grounds for believing that such person was over the age of 18 years, or, if the person is charged with permitting another person to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor contrary to the said subsection (1) or (2), to prove that an age card was produced by the person concerned to that other person or that that other person had other reasonable grounds for believing as aforesaid.

the bit i find interesting is "or that he had other reasonable grounds for believing that such person was over the age of 18 years"

would a passport not be reasonable grounds? as reasonable as an age card ?

I doubt there are many off licence employees qualified o verify the authenticity of a passport. And if you don't have that qualification can you really claim it was reasonable to accept it on face value?

Graham

There are amendments to the Equal Status Act 2000 where refusal of service of alcohol does not constitute discrimination.
Source: Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003

ekimiam wrote: »

Does it say that, exactly, anywhere in law? dont think so , they are being over cautious about it..

This may explain the stance some/many retailers take:

Store Management & Senior Staff Training Programme for the Voluntary Code of Practice of the Display and Sale of Alcohol Products In Mixed Trade Premises

Where management policy may accept passports and drivers licences as proof of age documents this is done in recognition that the only acceptable defence in court to a charge of sale of alcohol to an underage person is the National Age Card.
Student cards may not be accepted under any circumstances.

Take time to examine the ID carefully and compare the photograph to the customer. Ask yourself does the ID look genuine. If you are unhappy with the age ID refuse the sale politely.

If no acceptable ID is produced, decline the sale politely and request the customer to return with acceptable proof of age documentation. If you encounter resistance stay calm and explain that under the law you are obliged to ask for proof of age. If a customer persists, refer the matter to the manager.

Practical Guidelines to Prevent Underage Sales

Care and time must be taken to assess the following factors:

• The customer’s true age.
• Who is accompanying them (e.g. are the people accompanying them under 18 years).
• Remember when you are making a sale of alcohol you may be making a sale to a wider party of people other than those who are standing before you at the counter.

Source: Responsible Retailers of Alcohol in Ireland: http://rrai.ie

mikom

zarquon wrote: »

The law is the law and anyone buying booze needs ID. If you are in a purchasing group albeit a small one, everyone in the group needs to have ID.

.

Even the toddler in the shopping trolley seat.........

Kimbot

mikom wrote: »

Even the toddler in the shopping trolley seat.........

You never know, stewie Griffin might have used a mind altering ray gun to get Louis to buy him drink..... you can't trust no one these days, not even the toddlers

mikom

jonny24ie wrote: »

You never know, stewie Griffin might have used a mind altering ray gun to get Louis to buy him drink..... you can't trust no one these days, not even the toddlers

Probably buying it for Brian.

conorh91

mikom wrote: »

Even the toddler in the shopping trolley seat.........

The Intoxicating Liquor Acts leave plenty of room for common sense on this. It is not an offence to sell alcohol to a person in respect of whom there is no reason to believe the alcohol will be supplied to a minor outside the premises

Having said that, if a mother rocked up to the checkout with her toddler and a bottle of Dutchy, and said "it sends him right off to sleep, last thing at night" it may be lawful to sell the alcohol in that rather unique situation, since the alcohol is intended for supply to a minor in a private dwelling.

meathstevie

It's plain and simple, if a retailer is not completely satisfied that the drink they sell to a person is only going to be drank by over age persons they can refuse the sale and are actually expected to do so. It's an offence to supply drink to minors and that's supplying in all manners possible, including for example giving a 15 year old a can at family barbecue. Wether or not to prosecute is thankfully subject to Garda discretion.

conorh91

meathstevie wrote: »

It's an offence to supply drink to minors and that's supplying in all manners possible, including for example giving a 15 year old a can at family barbecue.

If this barbecue takes place at a private residence and the alcohol is supplied to a minor by a parent, or on consent from a parent, there is no offence.

Cookie_Monster

conorh91 wrote: »

The Intoxicating Liquor Acts leave plenty of room for common sense on this. It is not an offence to sell alcohol to a person in respect of whom there is no reason to believe the alcohol will be supplied to a minor outside the premises

Having said that, if a mother rocked up to the checkout with her toddler and a bottle of Dutchy, and said "it sends him right off to sleep, last thing at night" it may be lawful to sell the alcohol in that rather unique situation, since the alcohol is intended for supply to a minor in a private dwelling.

so where is the line then? What about a parent with their 15 year old son doing the weekly shop... or if he's 17, 10, 8 etc etc

Bepolite

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so where is the line then? What about a parent with their 15 year old son doing the weekly shop... or if he's 17, 10, 8 etc etc

I don't quite understand what was unclear about Conorh91's post. It was put clearly and succinctly. The line is where common sense puts it and within the judgement of the person manning the tills in the instant scenario.

auldgranny

This happened to my daughter and her friend once. They were both 20 but only one of them had ID. I have to be honest I was delighted they had taken such a stand on it. It was in my daughter's best interest.

Bepolite

auldgranny wrote: »

This happened to my daughter and her friend once. They were both 20 but only one of them had ID. I have to be honest I was delighted they had taken such a stand on it. It was in my daughter's best interest.

I'm also delighted they take a stand on this, personally. Alcohol is one of the major caused of anti-social behaviour and responsible selling is one way to help kerb it.

That or make it so expensive people can't afford it. Personally I like my wee tipple at a bargain price and would prefer to see more retailers policing the sale.

Amalgam

If you're a regular customer of Aldi, Parnell Street, Dublin, you are guaranteed to witness a customer having an issue over this policy, (often very loudly..) at least once a week.

Personally, I have no issues with this policy. I wish more outlets, particularly certain other supermarkets, would follow suit. *cough* Every Little Helps.

wolfyboy555

does anyone else notice employees asking if a customer is over 18 when they clearly are? I have seen a few customers who are 40 yrs + and the cashier usually says 'your over 18?' and not in a joking manner. it's like they have to say that to everyone they are not asking for ID!

Amalgam

wolfyboy555 wrote: »

does anyone else notice employees asking if a customer is over 18 when they clearly are? ...

I think they're worried of getting fined/closed down for a week or more, that certainly seemed to be conveyed very quickly, when talking to a cashier after a disgruntled customer. I'm guessing a uniform enquiry covers their back.