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Can we kill Irish once and for all

shane7218

I think its time to stop with the stupidity of forcing people to sit an Irish exam for the leaving cert. It's fine for the Junior but how is it fair that you have to do it for an exam that determines the college course you get ?. It's long overdue to add technology related exams such as Programming exams which are actually useful.

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shruikan2553

auldgranny wrote: »

Some French. Not fluent in it? After CHOOSING to study it?

Many people, myself included, take up french or german (other languages are available but depends on the school) along with a science subject in order to meet any requirements for third level courses. Not for the desire to be fluent in them.

shane7218

auldgranny wrote: »

Well you chose to study French, not fluent
Were forced to study Irish, not fluent

Your reason to make Irish optional again?

I don't need a reason, you need to provide a reason why it gets special treatment and is compulsory. Why is it that you cant provide any logical justification for it remaining compulsory ?

Mcdonough

I don't understand all the Irish hate.

After you've allowed every unique aspect of Irish culture to be forgotten, what's left on this rock?

May as well just turn the whole isle into a parking lot. Maybe stop education, teach kids how to be fry cooks and wage slaves for international corporations instead.

shane7218

Mcdonough wrote: »

I don't understand all the Irish hate.

After you've allowed every unique aspect of Irish culture to be forgotten, what's left on this rock?

May as well just turn the whole isle into a parking lot. Maybe stop education, teach kids how to be fry cooks and wage slaves for international corporations instead.

Yeah because removing 2 years out of learning Irish and still having 8 years will allow everything to forgotten. Do the 8 years before the leaving cert not count ?

shruikan2553

Mcdonough wrote: »

I don't understand all the Irish hate.

After you've allowed every unique aspect of Irish culture to be forgotten, what's left on this rock?

May as well just turn the whole isle into a parking lot. Maybe stop education, teach kids how to be fry cooks and wage slaves for international corporations instead.

Yes, that is exactly the plan. By letting people not learn essays everything Irish will be destroyed. Every Irish book will go up in flames and all GAA players will drop dead as the native Irish speakers lose their tongues.

auldgranny

shane7218 wrote: »

So you make fun of my dyslexia instead of making a logical argument. :rolleyes:

Have you dyslexia

auldgranny

shane7218 wrote: »

I don't need a reason, you need to provide a reason why it gets special treatment and is compulsory. Why is it that you cant provide any logical justification for it remaining compulsory ?

Read back on my posts. I agree with it being optional

RandomName2

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

All attacks on reindeer were ad hominen.

Well they do tend to be. Hunters typically aim for vital spots. Now attacks on reindeer do tend to be more a thing in Greenland and Iceland than Ireland, but anyhow.

I'm assuming you aren't talking about posters on this thread, because if you were, you might have tried quotes, or pointing out where you believe your pov to be proven. That kind of stuff.

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Funny - he is a Native American as far as I know. Yet the intelligentsia posting in this thread couldn't manage a search.

"You may not mention a person's character in admonishing terms but you may quote random details about him as a shield to all criticism."

Intelligentsia? Tried doing that search (sorry for the creeping Reindeer). Didn't find any evidence to support your claim. Maybe it's true. Doesn't really change... anything really.

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

They are masters of all languages but Irish. Because Irish was pushed down their throats. Otherwise they are geniuses at language. All studies which should there is a general corration between the ability to learn all languages and general intelligence need to be abandoned in this thread.

These studies should there is general corration between language use and general intelligence.

I dunno man... come up with some idea, instead of a badly phased sarcastic diatribe.. get some material to back up your point, and come back to us.

auldgranny wrote: »

Some French. Not fluent in it? After CHOOSING to study it?

Give him a break... he only had 6 years to learn it (and roughly 3 classes a week), as opposed to the 12 years of Irish (and roughly 5 classes a week). Not entirely sure what you point is: that you are somehow exploding the "myth" that if a subject is optional that people who attempt to learn it will all become experts? I mean, that is what you are trying to do here, isn't it?

Mcdonough wrote: »

I don't understand all the Irish hate.

After you've allowed every unique aspect of Irish culture to be forgotten, what's left on this rock?

I dunno. Firemen?

Mcdonough wrote: »

May as well just turn the whole isle into a parking lot. Maybe stop education, teach kids how to be fry cooks and wage slaves for international corporations instead.

Jaysus that's a bit extreme. Cornwall should consider making all its young folk into fry cooks as they don't have Cornish on the national curriculum.

Do you really think that the sum and total of Irish culture is Gaeilge? And that Geilge is only within schools (actually you'd have a point with that one). Like.. seriously?

Mcdonough

shane7218 wrote: »

Yeah because removing 2 years out of learning Irish and still having 8 years will allow everything to forgotten. Do the 8 years before the leaving cert not count ?

But that isn't what half the people here seem to be arguing.. they seem to think that the official language of Ireland isn't even worth knowing, and after 8 years, they still couldn't give enough ****es to learn it proper.

I think tells us just how highly they think of Ireland. And if they literally hate Irish culture, why should we take their opinion seriously?

shane7218

Mcdonough wrote: »

But that isn't what half the people here seem to be arguing.. they seem to think that the official language of Ireland isn't even worth knowing, and after 8 years, they still couldn't give enough ****es to learn it proper.

I think tells us just how highly they think of Ireland. And if they literally hate Irish culture, why should we take their opinion seriously?

I personally don't think the language is worth knowing. I personally have no desire to learn it proper. Does that mean I hate Ireland ? Is the language the only thing that makes us unique?

shruikan2553

Mcdonough wrote: »

But that isn't what half the people here seem to be arguing.. they seem to think that the official language of Ireland isn't even worth knowing, and after 8 years, they still couldn't give enough ****es to learn it proper.

I think tells us just how highly they think of Ireland. And if they literally hate Irish culture, why should we take their opinion seriously?

It is what people are arguing. I showed earlier we should be at least near fluent by the time we finish primary school but we arent, i doubt that is purely down to a bunch of children under the age of 12 not giving a ****.
Why should anyone take a hysterical person seriously? People love to over react to the idea of irish dying off after people spend only 12 years learning it instead of 14.

RandomName2

Mcdonough wrote: »

But that isn't what half the people here seem to be arguing.. they seem to think that the official language of Ireland isn't even worth knowing, and after 8 years, they still couldn't give enough ****es to learn it proper.

I think tells us just how highly they think of Ireland. And if they literally hate Irish culture, why should we take their opinion seriously?

12 years, but anyway.

Now I've some homework for you. Yes, you.

think about this statement:

"If someone, who's been forced to learn Gaeilge for 12 years, isn't fluent in it, they hate Ireland"

and work out why it's utter garbage.

Mcdonough

shruikan2553 wrote: »

It is what people are arguing. I showed earlier we should be at least near fluent by the time we finish primary school but we arent, i doubt that is purely down to a bunch of children under the age of 12 not giving a ****.
Why should anyone take a hysterical person seriously? People love to over react to the idea of irish dying off after people spend only 12 years learning it instead of 14.

It's not a hysteria when only a few hundred thousand are left speaking it, and the younger generations seem to take some weird pride in their Irish illiteracy... and, again, the fact that people refuse to learn it even when it's part of their basic schooling.

I dont know how you fail to see the problem. If they can't learn it in 12, make it 14, then 16, etc. Its the national language, there's no excuse not to know it, especially if you're a citizen there.

shruikan2553

Mcdonough wrote: »

It's not a hysteria when only a few hundred thousand are left speaking it, and the younger generations seem to take some weird pride in their Irish illiteracy... and, again, the fact that people refuse to learn it even when it's part of their basic schooling.

I dont know how you fail to see the problem. If they can't learn it in 12, make it 14, then 16, etc. Its the national language, there's no excuse not to know it, especially if you're a citizen there.

Thats the spirit. Its the students who are learning it wrong. Now here is an essay on the economy to learn off. Why arent people fluent after primary school? There are more than enough hours spent on it to get people to a near fluent level.
The most widely spoken language is english. You can live here only speaking english while you will struggle to live with only Irish. Why would I learn a language I dont need to communicate? As a hobby sure, but I have other hobbies that interest me more.

osarusan

Poor Irish skills when leaving school are a combination of two things.

The first is the way it's taught: as it's an official language, there is strong pressure not to teach it as a 'foreign' language. This means that while we study French, German, etc from the very basics and do it in a communicative manner, we study Irish stories, poems, etc, and these are well above the comprehension level of most students.

The second is that students, even young students, have a good sense of what is important to learn and what isn't. This sense is only heightened as students get older, and they (the majority) see that their world functions perfectly well without any Irish. They are not motivated to learn the language.

Now, if the languagge is taught in a communicative approach, and is generally fun, interesting, and the tasks are achievable, the second problem can be alleviated somewhat. But a combination of low intrinsic motivation and uninteresting classes makes for very little language learning.

briany

osarusan wrote: »

Poor Irish skills when leaving school are a combination of two things.

The first is the way it's taught: as it's an official language, there is strong pressure not to teach it as a 'foreign' language. This means that while we study French, German, etc from the very basics and do it in a communicative manner, we study Irish stories, poems, etc, and these are well above the comprehension level of most students.

The second is that students, even young students, have a good sense of what is important to learn and what isn't. This sense is only heightened as students get older, and they (the majority) see that their world functions perfectly well without any Irish. They are not motivated to learn the language.

Now, if the language is taught in a communicative approach, and is generally fun, interesting, and the tasks are achievable, the second problem can be alleviated somewhat. But a combination of low intrinsic motivation and uninteresting classes makes for very little language learning.

The overall problem with Irish is just that the interest isn't quite there. Among anyone. Not only amongst students, but amongst teachers, and the general public. We're living in a time when it's never been easier to learn a new language, where we've never had more resources to do so, and yet we're still in a mostly English speaking country. Where's all the additional speakers that we should have since the topic of the language seems to evoke so much fiery passion in debates like this? People, as a whole, tend to be short sighted and need immediate reasons why they should do something, and in the case of Irish I don't know of such a reason. Would there be an economic benefit? Would we see more money in our pockets? Would it aid the country politically? Would it be wise to draw a linguistic line of demarcation with the Anglosphere? Would it improve an individual's overall job prospects moreso than if they learned Spanish or Mandarin? These are big questions that nobody's really asking.

AngryHippie

shane7218 wrote: »

So if I can't speak Irish I have nothing that defines me as Irish. Rubbish!

Why should I have to spend time on something that is:

1: Dead
2: Useless
3: Not something I have any Interest in

Why don't we force everyone to learn Irish history or Irish dancing ?

"The bilingual language user may provide a powerful new window into the human language processing potential that is not fully recruited (engaged) in monolinguals. The findings from the bilingual brain lead us to a tantalizing view of the fullest biological extent of the neural tissue underlying language, which may be exploited in the bilingual and possibly lost in the monolingual."

Jasinska, K. K., University of Toronto, Toronto, ON, Canada
Petitto, L. A., University of Toronto, Toronto, ON, Canada

"The bilingual’s robust recruitment of classic language areas may constitute the underlying neural systems that give rise to the language and reading advantages observed among bilingual children relative to their mono-lingual peers" (Kovelman et al., 2008b).

Early age exposure to a second language and bilingual learning results in smarter kids. So any effort to remove it from the syllabus is a step in the wrong direction, unless you are going to replace it with another language. (The logistics of which, at a primary level when the brain benefits most from it, are nigh on impossible.)

shane7218 wrote: »

Why don't we force everyone to learn Irish history or Irish dancing ?

Irish History - We do.
Irish dancing - pure whataboutery there pal. Not even worth a response.

shane7218

AngryHippie wrote: »

"The bilingual language user may provide a powerful new window into the human language processing potential that is not fully recruited (engaged) in monolinguals. The findings from the bilingual brain lead us to a tantalizing view of the fullest biological extent of the neural tissue underlying language, which may be exploited in the bilingual and possibly lost in the monolingual."

Jasinska, K. K., University of Toronto, Toronto, ON, Canada
Petitto, L. A., University of Toronto, Toronto, ON, Canada

"The bilingual’s robust recruitment of classic language areas may constitute the underlying neural systems that give rise to the language and reading advantages observed among bilingual children relative to their mono-lingual peers" (Kovelman et al., 2008b).

Early age exposure to a second language and bilingual learning results in smarter kids. So any effort to remove it from the syllabus is a step in the wrong direction, unless you are going to replace it with another language. (The logistics of which, at a primary level when the brain benefits most from it, are nigh on impossible.)

Irish History - We do.
Irish dancing - pure whataboutery there pal. Not even worth a response.

What has any of that got to do with removing Irish at leaving cert level ? Is 9 years not enough do we need 11 or 12 ?

History is optional at leaving cert and so should Irish

AngryHippie

shane7218 wrote: »

What has any of that got to do with removing Irish at leaving cert level ? Is 9 years not enough do we need 11 or 12 ?

History is optional at leaving cert and so should Irish

It's got to do with refuting most of the fundamental arguments you have made for "Killing" Irish once and for all.

You have argued its a dead language - It's clearly not, you still haven't conceded this point.

You have argued that its useless - Reasons have been demonstrated as to the usefulness of training brains to be bi-lingual, if that isn't continued through the secondary cycle, then has the first 6 or 9 years of learning Irish not been a waste ?

I made the point of fundamental Foundation Irish being compulsory not really being a drain or a major commitment of time or energy in the leaving certificate.
It shouldn't be a requirement to third level education, certainly, but it should still play a part in the curriculum, I know guys who came over from Spain with English as their second language, sat the LC and passed foundation Irish after a 2 year cycle. It's not that difficult to pass. Will it be one of you "points" subjects, probably not, but as I have pointed out, removing it is not progressive. It does not improve anything.

If you can demonstrate an improvement that it would make, please do, and then the idea has merit.

Say you abandon Irish from the LC, then people who apply for governmental positions in quite a few parts of the country may argue that they are discriminated against on the basis that they have no knowledge of the language, or may not understand the words of our national anthem, read original text (from less than a century ago).

Most subjects are optional in the Leaving Certificate. If you make Irish non-compulsory, then for the purpose of equality, you should make English the same.

mickydoomsux

AngryHippie wrote: »

Say you abandon Irish from the LC, then people who apply for governmental positions in quite a few parts of the country may argue that they are discriminated against on the basis that they have no knowledge of the language, or may not understand the words of our national anthem

Remove the requirement for Irish from those governmental positions, it's unnecessary for these people to need to use it when they are doing their jobs in the real world.

Who cares if they don't understand the words of the national anthem? It's a song, whoop-dee-****.

Irish has zero practical uses that haven't been created specifically by someone with a vested interest in propping up its corpse.

looking_around

Mcdonough wrote: »

But that isn't what half the people here seem to be arguing.. they seem to think that the official language of Ireland isn't even worth knowing, and after 8 years, they still couldn't give enough ****es to learn it proper.

I think tells us just how highly they think of Ireland. And if they literally hate Irish culture, why should we take their opinion seriously?

it's not about not caring about learning Irish . it's terribly taught. and posters like to ignores, for the majority, the majority of people, that time is better spent learning another language.
so not only do teachers have this attitude "you should know that already". people feel they're forced to learn just because some people can't accept that most of ireland do not use it. and it doesn't make us any less Irish, I'm insulted that anyone would think like that.

RandomName2

Mcdonough wrote: »

It's not a hysteria when only a few hundred thousand are left speaking it, and the younger generations seem to take some weird pride in their Irish illiteracy... and, again, the fact that people refuse to learn it even when it's part of their basic schooling.

I dont know how you fail to see the problem. If they can't learn it in 12, make it 14, then 16, etc. Its the national language, there's no excuse not to know it, especially if you're a citizen there.

It's the national language so EVERYONE MUST KNOW IT.

Okay, okay, let's tease that out.

National language... certainly not the language that's spoken nationally. Polish would be a better candidacy than a language that's only spoken by 3% of the population.

So clearly you mean national language in terms of its official position within the state. Sure, that's fine... but why does it have that position in the state? Hmm? The actions of the ultra-right wing nationalist movement which wanted to build walls and break bridges in order to have an excuse to have an independent Ireland. The armed nationalist movement which saw Irish as a weapon in its arsenal; along with the Catholic Church and other aspects of real Gaelic culture.

Ironically the modus operandi of the fascistic early Fianna Fail, which brought in punitive measures to force people to learn the Gaelic tongue, did nothing to halt its decline! Even though people who didn't "have Irish" were second class citizens, barred from public service work, the number of speakers steadily declined.

The batsh*t crazy policies of the early independent government were gradually rolled back. A more mature, and balanced Ireland emerged, even though we are still burdened with a €1.2 billion annual bill to maintain DeValera's hobby horse.

But don't worry! The most extreme terrorists on this island took up the cause of using Irish as part of its identity. Nothing quite like hearing a cupla focal from a balacava'd man with a Kalashnikov.

So you, my friend, are part of a long line of hard right wing cultural-nationalistic folk who believe that the ubermerch are those who speak the true language of our ancestors. Doesn't matter how bogus the idea is - the point is that it's divisive.

So that's my personal reasons for my antipathy for the language; which is a little unfair on Gaeilge as it didn't chose to become a cash-cow or mouth-piece for terrorists. Like in the takeover of the Gaelic League, the aspirations of those who favour a soft maintenance of an old and dying language are drowned out by the hectoring tones of belligerent individuals who don't see the language itself, but merely what it can be used for. So make them learn it for 16 years, 18, 20 years. Whatever it takes, because the end justifies the means.

kingchess

I suppose the loyalists learning Irish in Belfast are right-wing cultural-nationalist folk??

RandomName2

kingchess wrote: »

I suppose the loyalists learning Irish in Belfast are right-wing cultural-nationalist folk??

Sure, we all know loyalists are the antonymy of right-wing cultural-nationalistic folk. They're like "pfft culture... don't care a jot about Gaelic, or Scots-Gaelic... and certainly don't give a toss about flags"

...

Garzard

It's not a hysteria when only a few hundred thousand are left speaking it, and the younger generations seem to take some weird pride in their Irish illiteracy... and, again, the fact that people refuse to learn it even when it's part of their basic schooling.

Ireland's basic schooling as you put it is outdated as far as I'm concerned. Particularly with regards to Irish - a language which for the most part is used and spoken by such a tiny minority nowadays that its place in the curriculum is even less justified than it was decades ago. Especially in an increasingly multicultural Ireland. It pays to be more practical rather than traditional with education, not the other way round.

I dont know how you fail to see the problem. If they can't learn it in 12, make it 14, then 16, etc. Its the national language, there's no excuse not to know it, especially if you're a citizen there.

If the current curriculum and compulsion hasn't already done the language irreparable damage, I'd imagine forcing it on students for 16 years certainly will. We've been banging our heads against the wall with Irish for too long now by keeping it compulsory and not overhauling its teaching to much [if any] degree.

P_1

Mcdonough wrote: »

It's not a hysteria when only a few hundred thousand are left speaking it, and the younger generations seem to take some weird pride in their Irish illiteracy... and, again, the fact that people refuse to learn it even when it's part of their basic schooling.

I dont know how you fail to see the problem. If they can't learn it in 12, make it 14, then 16, etc. Its the national language, there's no excuse not to know it, especially if you're a citizen there.

Balderdash. Frankly you sound exactly like a fanatical mullah in Iran with that argument.

323

Mcdonough wrote: »

It's not a hysteria when only a few hundred thousand are left speaking it, and the younger generations seem to take some weird pride in their Irish illiteracy... and, again, the fact that people refuse to learn it even when it's part of their basic schooling.

I dont know how you fail to see the problem. If they can't learn it in 12, make it 14, then 16, etc. Its the national language, there's no excuse not to know it, especially if you're a citizen there.

Honestly don't know how you figure a few hundred thousand can speak it and really can't see any amount of money thrown at it doing anything more than line the pockets of those with various vested interests.

Remove your blinkers, the problem is very simple, Irish is no longer spoken as a real language outside a tiny minority.

My only excuse for no longer knowing it is that I have not had a reason to speak the language since leaving school. Was once equally fluent in Irish and English as grew up in a gaeltacht area, English was not allowed at National school and spoke it at home a bit also.

Went to a secondary school in a gaeltacht area, spoke only a little during irish class for 5 years, guessing hardly had need to speak it more than a dozen or so times since my leaving oral over 25 years ago, even though I live in a gaeltacht area again , I hear Spanish and french much more than Irish, both of these I learned along the way years after leaving school plus some Portuguese. Because unlike Irish these are real working languages that much more beneficial to know.

jackofalltrades

AngryHippie wrote: »

Reasons have been demonstrated as to the usefulness of training brains to be bi-lingual, if that isn't continued through the secondary cycle, then has the first 6 or 9 years of learning Irish not been a waste ?

There was no link for the study that you posted.
But from what I read the cognitive advantages of talking to/teaching children bilingually, are greatest when they are very young.
The advantages seem to taper off with age.
If you want to teach them Irish with the above goal then you would be best doing it when they are in pre-school education.

If you make Irish non-compulsory, then for the purpose of equality, you should make English the same.

They're not really equal though.
English is the language 99.9% of people speak, it's also one of the big reasons multinationals set up here.
Any reduction in our ability with the language could have negative economic consequences.

bb1234567

shane7218 wrote: »

Like I struggled with Irish in school and barely passed it, yet I did great in everything else and almost missed out on getting into a computer science course. How can we justify something like Irish determining if someone is good enough to study an IT related course or any for that matter.

I struggled so much with maths this year, yet I needed a pass for my course( and this course involves no maths whatsoever).I do very well in all my subjects apart from maths. Exact same situation as you, but with different subjects. If irish shouldnt be compulsory then neither should maths or english

kingchess

we keep doing the same thing over and over for years with teaching Irish and think our kids will be fluent when they leave school,which they clearly are not,so change the methods of teaching it in primary school to something that will work.then make it optional from jc on,