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The Dishonest Conflation of Anti-Zionism with Anti-Semitism

Brown Bomber

This pavlovian response was brought to you by the Israel Lobby as a means to shield from the criticism the perpetrators of heinous war crimes and human rights abuses over decades and ongoing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0kWAqZxJVE

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enno99

Its good to see some dont give a fu+k and tell it like it is anyway

Israelis torturing non-Jewish children. 2014

<snip>

Mod: Videos containing torture are not allowed for obvious reasons

Torakx

This is going to be a juicy thread

I might even counter your main point if I can find a way to do so. It seems to easy to side with you on this one and it's always nice to test our theories.

I don't think I could watch that vid Enno, I think I have seen enough of Israels actions and practices. The image already there makes me uncomfortable.
But I might add since I am being sensible more so these days

That I am unsure off the bat on that video and the topic of zionism and anti-semetism.
Wow Penn you are fast

Harold Weiss

I think Gilad Atzmon said it best in an interview along with Lee Kaplan, regarding the Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians and colored people.

"The west keeps silent; Not because they are blind to the crimes against humanity that are committed by Israel but just because western politics is dominated by Jewish lobbies and this is something that must be said because the most powerful thing about Jewish power is the capacity to stop us talking about Jewish power"

When referring to 80% of conservative MPs being part of CFI (Conservative Friends of Israel)

"80% of our conservative politicians in the parliament care more about Tel Aviv than they do about Glasgow"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ68b6hHn8E

Why western governments are dominated by Jewish Lobbies is very easy to explain. Those people are rich and one day they realize it is much cheaper to buy an American congressman than buying a tank.

When you buy an American congressman, you get a tank filled with American soldiers who are willing to die in an Israeli war; in Iraq, in Syria, in Iran, where ever we tell them.

Brown Bomber

Torakx wrote: »

This is going to be a juicy thread
I might even counter your main point if I can find a way to do so. It seems to easy to side with you on this one and it's always nice to test our theories.

Well there is another element to this that is worth mentioning in the interests of balance which muddles things a little. It is possible to be both anti-semitic and anti-Zionist at the same time. This would be the standard position of much of the far right.

The Wiesenthal Center, The ADL and the other Israel lobby propagandists, manipulators and guilt trippers are partly to blame for this as the party line is Judaism = Zionism. So when you see on the news a Palestinian or Lebanese child lying on a makeshift hospital bed in his slum with his legs blown off in an airstrike which hit his home and his family members surrounding him in hysterics and you are told that this is done in the name of Zionism and Zionism = Judaism and you don't understand that this is false then you are going think negatively of Judaism.

What they are banking on is the reverse - that you are so head-****ed that even when Israelis are committing terrible acts of cruelty that you think they are the victims, so wracked with guilt over the Holocaust (even though it had absolutely nothing to do you on any level) and so spineless that you fear being labelled an anti-semite that you accept everything the ADL says as fact and are not critical of Zionism.

All that said while you can be a Jewish Zionist or an anti-semitic antii-Zionist Zionism and Judaism are completely independent of each other as are anti-Zionism and Judaism.

Brown Bomber

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This would be the standard position of much of the far right.

Actually, just to correct myself. This is really only true now of the old fashioned, Hitlerist, skinhead type. Muslims have become the new Jews for want of a better word.

Zionism, itself an ultra-nationalist, ethnocentric, supremacist and racist ideology has become allied with the far right movements in Europe and beyond - EDL, PVV, Swedish Democrats and so on.

enno99

yea sorry about the video if it upset anybody I should have warned people.I mean who could watch such horrors and not be affected
Yes thorax I know you and others are well aware of this but if every post thats posted here educates 1 person be it good, bad or indifferent it has to be worth a shot right

But we need not worry we have systems in place to protect our delicate constitutions (im not arguing with mods decision if it breached the rules ) even here

I hope this thread has legs also. There are plenty of well informed people here with good information to share Im not in that category myself but I have learned an awful lot from posters here

But it usually goes how awful I cant condone or contradict that but you have stooped to a new low of anti-semitism to bring it to my attention thread closed or something along that vein

I understand what you mean about the video being not entirely on topic

I was trying to highlight that some dont give a **** if they are called anti-Semitic if they are critical of Zionism or Israels treatment of Palestine and exposing their crimes

I see it as just another label pinned on you to make you feel( like BB said) guilty about something you had no hand act or part in

When enough people realize this and get over the fear of being stigmatized for speaking out then this whole house of cards will crumble
and their propaganda will be useless

look in the Freemason thread there you will notice the same type of accusation anti-masonic used over and over and Freemasons there will tell you that there are no links to Jews and Zionism only that they admit them to their craft but dig a little deeper and these groups look pretty tight
Is it just these two or am i missing some
every one else gets a phobia Homophobia ,Islamaphobia and so on

So the non Jew the anti-semite the Jew the self hating Jew You could be called worse
you could be called someone who condones this torture of children and to cowardly to speak out against it and its perpetrators

I think I know which badge I would rather have pinned on me

Brown Bomber

Gilad Atzmon wrote:

the most powerful thing about Jewish power is the capacity to stop us talking about Jewish power"

While Atzmon is Jewish, I don't think "Jewish Power" is the most useful description for what he is describing it did remind me a lot of the Gary Oldman comments this week on the strong influence of Jewish guys in Hollywood to instant grovelling apology to the ADL.

It creates a really strange situation where the apology proves what he is apologising for has a basis in reality.

Harold Weiss

Brown Bomber wrote: »

While Atzmon is Jewish

Not sure Atzmon considers himself Jewish anymore. For me personally, a Jewish person is someone that practices Judaism, the same as a Christian, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Taoist...etc

What's the difference?

Well, some would have us believe being Jewish is to be part of some ethnic group when most Jewish people living in Israel are white descendents of Europe and Russia, sometimes referred to as Special White People because of their own self-elevated perception of themselves, again, all part of the identity/ego.

In 'The Wandering Who' Atzmon deals with both Zionist and anti-Zionist people with very little distinction between the two because he sees it as another way to distract the masses.

The people that have criticized Atzmon calling him a 'self-hating Jew' and 'anti-Semite' like Max Blumenthal are themselves anti-Zionist Zionists in that they are also trying to prevent discussion about Jewish identity politics and power.

You have so-called 'alternative' news sources like 'Democracy Now', 'The Real News' that claim to criticize Israeli policy towards the Palestinians but then refuse to discuss overall the problem with Jewish power in the world.

You also have gate-keepers like Noam Chomsky and Zbigniew Brzezinski that pretend to be anti-Zionists themselves which I just view as controlled opposition.

Although Atzmon might be abrasive with his choice of words, I think he's more honest than others out there claiming to be anti-Zionist.

Torakx

Aww... Noam chomsky is a bit of a hero for me

Can you tell me a little of your opinon of him in relation to Israel and the Jewish people or zionists?
I have watched a good few lectures of his and probably one on this topic, but the information doesn't seem to have stuck around long.
I did really like his lecture on anarchy! I was like, oh yeah I am all about that or at least some part of me is.
But the gatekeeper analogy is a very good point. I see this all the time in many areas and it makes sense thatsomeone like him should be seemingly against the powerful elite, but also watching his words, because he may get killed, as an influential person speaking too much against these elite families and their heritage.
I think he did a lecture in Australia on zionism, but can't be sure..

Harold Weiss

There are 3 issues with Chomsky that make me distrust him; 9/11, JFK and the Federal Reserve which James Corbett also highlights in his video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEDf7OkRCxk

To summarize, he doesn't believe anyone from the US government was involved in assassination of JFK, discredits the idea of any conspiracy relating to 9/11.

The third issue, I wouldn't necessarily disagree Fiat money is problematic provided the money supply isn't controlled by private interests.

Chomsky and Finkelstein are always on Damage Control Now!

The exclusion of Mearsheimer and Walt on Goodman's show, which, on these issues, should be renamed "Damage Control Now", is, of course, an experience shared by most, if not all, of today's speakers.

Telling your viewers and listeners the truth about Israel - U.S. relations, the Iraq War, and the build up to a war in Iran is clearly not on the Goodman agenda. Bringing in Chomsky to throw cold water on the Mearsheimer/Walt book was in keeping with the tradition of ignoring AIPAC.

She never reports on the almost unanimous votes on sanctions legislation against Israel's enemies that AIPAC drafts for Congress, nor on its annual policy conferences here in Washington, which are not insignificant events.

Democracy Now! receives indirect funding from George Soros, and direct funding from the Ford Foundation, the Glaser Foundation, Soros' Open Society Institute, the Public Welfare Foundation, the Schumann Center for Media and Democracy, the Tides Foundation, and other left-leaning foundations.

Are there Israel lobby gatekeepers and damage control squads on the Left?

You also have so-called 'The Real News Network' headed by Paul Jay.

The problem with all these folks was that they are Jewish tribalists. Whether they think of themselves as that or not is irrelevant.

They have been so inculcated from childhood with the belief that Jews are the world's eternal victims and eternal scapegoats, that they will not accept colelctive Jewish responsibility for anything.

Which is why they have to blame first British and later US imperialism for the success of Zionism refusing to acknowledge, for example, that both the 48 and 67 wars, the two major events in the history of the Israel-Palestine conflict, were launched by Jews and supported by the majority of Jews around the world without any imperial power pushing or guiding their way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yGWiqXE0_g

Torakx

Thanks for that. Some good info there. I do still love a lot of Chomskys thoughts, but I do have to agree on, I think, all of the points made about him above.
I can ever so slightly see his perspective regarding fiat currency. One idea I have is to raise the fractional reserve limit to something more like 90%, until it is safe to level out. But really it is balancing on a weak/broken foundation still. But to take that stance is to disregard so many possible and superior, systems of currency.
So I pretty much agree with your above post. Maybe his reasons I am still not fully sure on yet. As in it seems obvious when hearing the pentagon has funded him in various ways , but I like to reserve judgement with someone who is clearly very smart.
Jordan Maxwell spoke of agencies approaching potential trouble makers and giving them one of two choices.
Sometimes it's better to survive and continue to speak publicly about their interests. His greatest sacrifice? Or his greatest sin?

Also I went back to the first post again after the new update and found a propoganda video afterwards, that might highlight the amount of intellectual effort put in, to do exactly what BB is talking about in this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrde5ycUz_c#t=1168
40 odd minutes long, talking about anti-semetism in Europe and the use of zionism to veil anti-semitism.
The video I linked really felt and smelled of manipulation. It FELT very forced.
I am an intuitive(apparently 75%) and my intuition is telling me that somebody desperately wants to convince me that they are both the same thing.
However lately i have become very much a cynic and a believer in lack of belief

that I can't take the full apposing side either. I'm looking for the fence to sit on basically haha

Anyway, so far I can't put up much of an arguement against your theory.
I just don't know where tostart. And that video I linked doesn't help me much at all. It seems more damaging to that cause, which is suspicious....hmmmm counter, counter propoganda...ugh!

Absolam

enno99 wrote: »

look in the Freemason thread there you will notice the same type of accusation anti-masonic used over and over and Freemasons there will tell you that there are no links to Jews and Zionism only that they admit them to their craft but dig a little deeper and these groups look pretty tight Is it just these two or am i missing some every one else gets a phobia Homophobia ,Islamaphobia and so on

In fairness if you're going to make baseless statements about Freemasonry (like Jews are responsible for setting up half of Freemasonry and are nebulously involved with the KKK) you may get the odd person thinking you're anti-masonic.

Torakx

Considering things logically, it is irational to come to conclusions based on personality traits, intention/motivation judgements.
The theory or idea itself should be the focus.
The thread highlights a clever trick to cause people to focus on the character bringing the idea, instead of the idea itself.

I suppose an example of that could be planted agents in protests, tasked with causing violence to allow the other side to use force.
Guilt by association tactics.

In the case then of these anti-semetic and anti-masonic accusations, I would say the bigger question would be, are they right?
If not, fine. But we have to first look and think effectively, before a rational judgement can be made. Personally I think sticking to any belief is limiting.
Even the belief that sticking to any belief is limiting

And because I also think judgement is a result of or tied strongly to belief, I try to have as few judgements as I can make.

Azwaldo55

I'm sure you have heard that 3 Israeli boys abducted by Palestinians have been found murdered.

The Israelis are obviously going to respond with a military operation to arrest and kill those responsible and inevitably - if they bomb a safe house where militants or leaders are hiding out or strike a vehicle carrying a senior militant or hit a weapons cache - civilians living nearby will get killed.

Now if this happened in any other region of the world where similar conflict exists it would barely register.

If three boys were abducted and murdered by a drug gang in Mexico nobody would care.

Because the Holy Land is the birthplace of three religions and because the Middle East is oil rich and strategically vital to the global economy this incident which would be of no interest to a leftist in London or New York or Paris suddenly get laser like attention.

The hellish conflict in Syria and the developing nightmare in post-US occupation Iraq or inevitable victory of the Taliban in Afghanistan hold no interest to the Israel obsessed political left in Europe and America.

As far as I am concerned Israelis and Palestinians are both loathsome. They want to kill each other. Fine by me. I simply do not care anymore.

But why is this nasty conflict such an obsession to the left?

Does it not distract from greater problems and doesn't that suit the powers that be?

Brown Bomber

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

I'm sure you have heard that 3 Israeli boys abducted by Palestinians have been found murdered.

How do you know they were kidnapped by "Palestinians"?

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The Israelis are obviously going to respond with a military operation to arrest and kill those responsible

Why is extra judicial assasination + killing innocents in "collateral damage" the "obvious" next step?

Azwaldo55

Brown Bomber wrote: »

How do you know they were kidnapped by "Palestinians"?

Yes. Yes. You are right. They were kidnapped by Eskimos. Of course!;)

Why is extra judicial assasination + killing innocents in "collateral damage" the "obvious" next step?

It is obvious the Israelis will not limit their response to just a criminal investigation of a triple murder. They see the hand of Hamas in this and they will respond and are responding with military force against Hamas. There were thirty sites at least hit last night by Israeli airstrikes in Gaza and there are Israeli troops combing Hebron area looking for the people they believe are responsible. Doubtless there will be more strikes to come. The Israelis want Abbas to abandon the recent detante between Fatah and Hamas.

Brown Bomber

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Yes. Yes. You are right. They were kidnapped by Eskimos. Of course!;)

I never said who they were kidnapped by because I don't know.

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

It is obvious the Israelis will not limit their response to just a criminal investigation of a triple murder. They see the hand of Hamas in this and they will respond and are responding with military force against Hamas. There were thirty sites at least hit last night by Israeli airstrikes in Gaza and there are Israeli troops combing Hebron area looking for the people they believe are responsible. Doubtless there will be more strikes to come.

War crimes are not and never have been obvious or the natural course of action..

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The Israelis want Abbas to abandon the recent detante between Fatah and Hamas.

uh-huh. So Israel has a motive for killing these 3 Israelis, right?

Azwaldo55

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I never said who they were kidnapped by because I don't know.

Give me a break! You and I know they were kidnapped and murdered by Palestinians.

War crimes are not and never have been obvious or the natural course of action..

You and I know that Israel is going to use military force to punish the Palestinians in reprisal for the killing of three teenagers.

uh-huh. So Israel has a motive for killing these 3 Israelis, right?

Israel kills its own citizens? Laughable stuff.

DamagedTrax

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Israel kills its own citizens? Laughable stuff.

Bulgaria 2012? also a lot of arab israeli citizens thru the years (6 in 1976 alone springs to mind).

Azwaldo55

DamagedTrax wrote: »

Bulgaria 2012? also a lot of arab israeli citizens thru the years (6 in 1976 alone springs to mind).

The attack on the bus in Bulgaria was an Israeli plot? Oh please!

Are you counting among the 6 Israelis killed in 1976 the three Israelis killed accidentally during the Entebbe rescue?

Torakx

I think that considering things from the position that a government would always do the "right" thing morally and ethically(or even whatit says it is or will do), is a flawed view of things.
It implies certain rules of conduct are adhered to, that just is not the case in many circumstances.
Of course a government/state has the potential to kill it's own citizens.
I would say much more potential than not and they often do, but systematically and subversively in most cases. Itr is usually put down to ignorance, but I have seen too much indication of profit in those decisions made.
So I keep an open mind regarding this story of Israel possibly killing it's own, to get to culling palastinian numbers again or reaching soem target or other.
At the same time it could be likely that because of the current situation, there are groups in palastine that would return the favor.
It would be silly to think theywould passively sit in a cage and wait to die off.

Absolam

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Give me a break! You and I know they were kidnapped and murdered by Palestinians.

This feels so strange... agreeing with BB! But how do you know they were kidnapped and murdered by Palestinians?

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

You and I know that Israel is going to use military force to punish the Palestinians in reprisal for the killing of three teenagers.

It may be a reasonable assumption, but unless you're part of the Israeli government responsible for these things, I don't think you actually know?

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Israel kills its own citizens? Laughable stuff.

Because they're so disinclined to engage in conflict, have demonstrated an extreme aversion to bloodshed, or what exactly?

Brown Bomber

Absolam wrote: »

This feels so strange... agreeing with BB!

Ha. That made me laugh. Though, to be fair, you could do worse. I may have predicted this a couple of weeks ago.

Israel to create it's own next boogey man
This is less of a theory and more of a prediction.

It's the coming together at the same time of a couple of different factors.

1) The joining of Hamas to the PLO
2) The acceptance of PLO of a two-state solution
3) The public desire of Netanyahu of a two-state solution.
4) The actual desire of Netanyahu for no solution and expansion of the settlements.

Quote:
"He (Abbas) agreed to a demilitarized state; he agreed to the border outline so 80 percent of settlers would continue living in Israeli territory; he agreed for Israel to keep secui ty sensitive areas (mostly in the Jordan Valley - NB) for five years, and then the United States would take over. He accepted the fact that in the Israeli perception, the Palestinians would never be trustworthy.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...515821,00.html
Israel needs an enemy to blame for choosing the path of war. Hamas, who Israel supported the rise of, is moving away from this territory. Israel will have to create it's own enemy. Be it a Hamas splinter group (sponsored by Iran, Hezbollah expansion or international jihadis spilled over from Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Libya I just hope it doesn't kill innocent Jews to establish this.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=90409548

Brown Bomber

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The attack on the bus in Bulgaria was an Israeli plot? Oh please!

Are you counting among the 6 Israelis killed in 1976 the three Israelis killed accidentally during the Entebbe rescue?

This "rescue"?

Israel hijack role 'was queried'

By Dan Parkinson
BBC News

Idi Amin was thought to have colluded with the hijackers

It has been seen as a daring raid by crack Israeli troops to rescue dozens of their countrymen held at the mercy of hijackers. But newly released documents contain a claim that the 1976 rescue of hostages, kidnapped on an Air France flight and held in Entebbe in Uganda, was not all it seemed.
A UK government file on the crisis, released from the National Archives, contains a claim that Israel itself was behind the hijacking.