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Water meter protests

[Deleted User]

I've been kinda following the story about the water meter protests on & off for a few weeks now via the Dublin says no facebook page (looks like there's trouble in Raheny today with the Gardaí there).

I can't say I'm a big fan of another bill but it's very clear that we are going to be paying for water next year no matter what.

I admire the dedication of the people who've been out protesting everyday but I can't help but wonder if their actions won't inevitably help increase the water charges. Irish water have contractors working for them & the workers will get paid regardless of weather they install no meters or 10 meters a day. The longer the protesters block work, the longer Irish water will need to keep the contractors on the payroll & you can guarantee that cost will be passed on in the long run.

What do other people think about the protests?

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LordNorbury

Macy0161 wrote: »

Where do I get my refund for drilling my well, putting in a treatment system and ongoing maintenance and electricity costs? When do those on group water schemes get their refund?

You're dead right. The point I'm making is that if we have to pay a water tax, then there should be a corresponding reduction for the same amount in your income tax. This isn't a charge for water provision, it is another disgusting shake down of the citizenry, to continue to pay for a country that is highly inefficient to run, where greed still has to be paid for, instead of the costs brought down to match the income that they state has to spend.

Nippledragon

I'm sure ye have all seen/read this before but it makes my fooking blood boil. Another inept gobsh!te given a job with huge salary that tax payers will be forking out for....

"Hubert Kearns was Sligo County Manager for 17 years and when he retired in 2013 he received a lump sum of 270,000 and a pension of 68,000 per year. His time as Sligo manager was controversial and he left behind a County debt of 80 million. "It's not the end of the world, nobody died," he said about the council's financial woes. At one stage he refused to attend council meetings in a dispute with an independent Councillor and spent more than €50,000 council money hiring HR consultant Declan Naughton to monitor meetings. Asked to comment on reports that his own pay as Sligo Manager, at €136,000, was €30,000 more than that of the Spanish prime minister, Mr Kearns said his salary was fixed by Government. “I am surprised that the Spanish prime minister earns so little.”
So after retiring from Sligo with his pockets full thanks to the taxpayer - that's you and me, has Mr Kearns taken up fishing? No, Hubert has apparently found gainful employment with Irish Water.

Ah, Irish Water, home to retired Council managers, headed up by retired Dublin Manager John Tierney (salary 200,000 Eur). But apparently Irish Water managers (like Hubert?) would have to get by on a measly 100,000. Hopefully 'though they might be able to survive once the expenses and free cars are factored in.
So you can see good people why it's going to take 20 years to fix all those rusting water pipes."

[Deleted User]

Off topic, but thought it interesting.
I was listening to a discussion on Northern Ireland today. They said the difference between those North of the border and those South, is that when the Northeners complain, they get something done. When the Southerners complain, thats it. They moan and NOTHING changes.

Uriel.

LordNorbury wrote: »

I may be wrong there when I say he technically has no legal authority to impose water charges, as the government of the day can legislate for anything in theory.

You are wrong. There is no theory. The Government can legislate (one of its main functions) though not for "anything"

However he got elected after promising to take on deeply embedded highly unionised vested interests in this country,

Who?

which he has completely failed to do

How?

People have no more to give

Really? People have no more to give? Is that everyone? Some? You?

so everything should be back on the table now, including our corporate tax rate and our membership of the Euro.

Anything can go "back on the table" but is leaving the Euro and increasing our Corp Tax Rate anymore of a solution now than it was previously?
Do you have any understanding as to what either of those two options would entail and the impacts they would have, or are you just rehashing soundbites from wee Gerry?

You can't have a society where the vast majority of people in it have been left absolutely destitute

The vast majority of the country are absolutely destitute? Really? Please tell me you are not being serious?

to pay for the whims of a minority living in the same society, who think that because they happen to work for the government,

So it's the Public Service that is destroying the country?

Uriel.

grundie wrote: »

The government could save themselves a a whole lot of hassle if they just set up a website that offered a detailed breakdown of where our tax money goes.

I'd like to know what proportion of my tax goes to the local council, how much to roads, how much to the ECB for the bailout, and how much goes to Irish Water etc. A sort of basic balance sheet for government spending. I want to actually see where my money is going, that is what will ease my skepticism about all these new charges.

That data is available on various government websites, but it's hardly accessible to the lay man.

Oh you mean like the Department of Finance's website?

Very accessible, like here for example.

Lemlin

LordNorbury wrote: »

You're dead right. The point I'm making is that if we have to pay a water tax, then there should be a corresponding reduction for the same amount in your income tax. This isn't a charge for water provision, it is another disgusting shake down of the citizenry, to continue to pay for a country that is highly inefficient to run, where greed still has to be paid for, instead of the costs brought down to match the income that they state has to spend.

The country is running at a budget deficit. We need to increase taxes to try and balance the books. Therefore how do you expect income tax to be reduced because a new tax is being introduced? We the electorate don't want services to be cut yet we also don't want taxes to be increased. One or the other has to give.

LordNorbury wrote: »

You can't have a society where the vast majority of people in it have been left absolutely destitute, to pay for the whims of a minority living in the same society, who think that because they happen to work for the government, that they are entitled to excess pay and are entitled to terms & conditions of employment that greatly exceed what is available in the private sector jobs market. The boom is long over and its about time some people got with the program I think and snapped out of it and got real with regard to pay.

I do laugh at some people's understanding of the word "destitute". I worked with a fella who was typical of several people I know. He complained every day about taxes, how he couldn't afford to buy a home, how this benefit wasn't enough or that benefit had been cut. Every day I would watch him buy 4 coffees, smoke at least ten cigarettes and buy lunch and breakfast in the office canteen. I don't know how the poor lad survived such destitution.

No Pants

Nippledragon wrote: »

"Hubert Kearns was Sligo County Manager for 17 years and when he retired in 2013 he received a lump sum of 270,000 and a pension of 68,000 per year. His time as Sligo manager was controversial and he left behind a County debt of 80 million. "It's not the end of the world, nobody died," he said about the council's financial woes. At one stage he refused to attend council meetings in a dispute with an independent Councillor and spent more than €50,000 council money hiring HR consultant Declan Naughton to monitor meetings. Asked to comment on reports that his own pay as Sligo Manager, at €136,000, was €30,000 more than that of the Spanish prime minister, Mr Kearns said his salary was fixed by Government. “I am surprised that the Spanish prime minister earns so little.”
So after retiring from Sligo with his pockets full thanks to the taxpayer - that's you and me, has Mr Kearns taken up fishing? No, Hubert has apparently found gainful employment with Irish Water.

Ah, Irish Water, home to retired Council managers, headed up by retired Dublin Manager John Tierney (salary 200,000 Eur). But apparently Irish Water managers (like Hubert?) would have to get by on a measly 100,000. Hopefully 'though they might be able to survive once the expenses and free cars are factored in.
So you can see good people why it's going to take 20 years to fix all those rusting water pipes."

Source?

Geuze

LordNorbury wrote: »

The point I'm making is that if we have to pay a water tax, then there should be a corresponding reduction for the same amount in your income tax.

One of the reasons for the LPT and water charges is to broaden the tax base.

As we are running a huge fiscal deficit, unfortunately other taxes can't be cut at the same time.

Geuze

end of the road wrote: »

but general taxation isn't going to go down, its going to go up and keep going up along with these service charges, thats the reality

Here are the estimates for future tax revenues:

http://www.finance.gov.ie/sites/default/files/Ireland's%20SPU%202014%20Final%2029%20April%202014.2.pdf

See table 7

micosoft

LordNorbury wrote: »

I may be wrong there when I say he technically has no legal authority to impose water charges, as the government of the day can legislate for anything in theory. However he got elected after promising to take on deeply embedded highly unionised vested interests in this country, which he has completely failed to do, and now that he has failed to do that, people are rightly standing up to him on Water Charges and saying that they aren't putting up with it. People have no more to give, so everything should be back on the table now, including our corporate tax rate and our membership of the Euro.

You can't have a society where the vast majority of people in it have been left absolutely destitute, to pay for the whims of a minority living in the same society, who think that because they happen to work for the government, that they are entitled to excess pay and are entitled to terms & conditions of employment that greatly exceed what is available in the private sector jobs market. The boom is long over and its about time some people got with the program I think and snapped out of it and got real with regard to pay.

You must know you are lying when you do it so gratuitously. Water meters and charges were in the programme for government for Fine Gael. The people voted the government in. The opponents to water meters seem to have a significant challenge with reality and truth.

SaveOurLyric

Nippledragon wrote: »

I'm sure ye have all seen/read this before but it makes my fooking blood boil. Another inept gobsh!te given a job with huge salary that tax payers will be forking out for....

"Hubert Kearns was Sligo County Manager for 17 years and when he retired in 2013 he received a lump sum of 270,000 and a pension of 68,000 per year. His time as Sligo manager was controversial and he left behind a County debt of 80 million. "It's not the end of the world, nobody died," he said about the council's financial woes. At one stage he refused to attend council meetings in a dispute with an independent Councillor and spent more than €50,000 council money hiring HR consultant Declan Naughton to monitor meetings. Asked to comment on reports that his own pay as Sligo Manager, at €136,000, was €30,000 more than that of the Spanish prime minister, Mr Kearns said his salary was fixed by Government. “I am surprised that the Spanish prime minister earns so little.”
So after retiring from Sligo with his pockets full thanks to the taxpayer - that's you and me, has Mr Kearns taken up fishing? No, Hubert has apparently found gainful employment with Irish Water.

Ah, Irish Water, home to retired Council managers, headed up by retired Dublin Manager John Tierney (salary 200,000 Eur). But apparently Irish Water managers (like Hubert?) would have to get by on a measly 100,000. Hopefully 'though they might be able to survive once the expenses and free cars are factored in.
So you can see good people why it's going to take 20 years to fix all those rusting water pipes."

Water is obviously a crucial resource. Delivering it to 4.5 million people and managing the huge infrastructure and staff of a wide variety of skills is a very complex and skilled job. Not many people can do it successfully. We need our most experienced and most capable people like Mr. Kearns and Mr. Tierney managing such an operation. Paying them figures like that is a minute fraction of the operating costs, and in truth, represents excellent value for money for the quality of service they provide to the rest of us.

micosoft

Deleted User wrote: »

Off topic, but thought it interesting.
I was listening to a discussion on Northern Ireland today. They said the difference between those North of the border and those South, is that when the Northeners complain, they get something done. When the Southerners complain, thats it. They moan and NOTHING changes.

Wow. Meaningful insight there.

Northern Ireland gets a subvention of £5000 million a year or 20% of their economy from the English People. Adjusted for population that's £12,500 million or €15,666 million Euro.

It's easy to get something done when you have a free €15,666,000,000 a year to buy votes.

And yet they still have property tax in Northern Ireland. And a terrible water system.

Richard

micosoft wrote: »

Wow. Meaningful insight there.

Northern Ireland gets a subvention of £5000 million a year or 20% of their economy from the English People. Adjusted for population that's £12,500 million or €15,666 million Euro.

It's easy to get something done when you have a free €15,666,000,000 a year to buy votes.

And yet they still have property tax in Northern Ireland. And a terrible water system.

It's not just the English who pay taxes. And there are English regions that also get more out of the pot than they put in.

And there are parts of Ireland that get more out than they put in. It happens in every country.

No Pants

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Water is obviously a crucial resource. Delivering it to 4.5 million people and managing the huge infrastructure and staff of a wide variety of skills is a very complex and skilled job. Not many people can do it successfully. We need our most experienced and most capable people like Mr. Kearns and Mr. Tierney managing such an operation. Paying them figures like that is a minute fraction of the operating costs, and in truth, represents excellent value for money for the quality of service they provide to the rest of us.

Thanks Mr. Hogan.

flutered

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Water is obviously a crucial resource. Delivering it to 4.5 million people and managing the huge infrastructure and staff of a wide variety of skills is a very complex and skilled job. Not many people can do it successfully. We need our most experienced and most capable people like Mr. Kearns and Mr. Tierney managing such an operation. Paying them figures like that is a minute fraction of the operating costs, and in truth, represents excellent value for money for the quality of service they provide to the rest of us.

is that the same kearns who broke sligo co.co, the same tierney who oversaw the poolbeg disaster, plus the greyhound waste collection, guys with proven ability to allow tax income to vanish, then collect obscene retirement packages, the sidestep into another public funded quango with another obsscene pension fund is recieved upon retiremeent for wasting public funds, i have no objection to paying water rates, i do so at the moment, what i object to is the carry on in which this hair brained scheme was concived and is being run.

[Deleted User]

micosoft wrote: »

Wow. Meaningful insight there.

Northern Ireland gets a subvention of £5000 million a year or 20% of their economy from the English People. Adjusted for population that's £12,500 million or €15,666 million Euro.

It's easy to get something done when you have a free €15,666,000,000 a year to buy votes.

And yet they still have property tax in Northern Ireland. And a terrible water system.

"Free"?? Do the good citizens of Norn Iron not pay any Income Tax, VAT, etc?

end of the road

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Water is obviously a crucial resource. Delivering it to 4.5 million people and managing the huge infrastructure and staff of a wide variety of skills is a very complex and skilled job. Not many people can do it successfully. We need our most experienced and most capable people like Mr. Kearns and Mr. Tierney managing such an operation. Paying them figures like that is a minute fraction of the operating costs, and in truth, represents excellent value for money for the quality of service they provide to the rest of us.

sweet mother of jesus, your post can't be serious right? what the hell would Mr. Kearns and Mr. Tierney know about managing services?

SaveOurLyric

end of the road wrote: »

what the hell would Mr. Kearns and Mr. Tierney know about managing services?

More than almost everybody else.
With lengthy and wide of experience and success in public service management, they are both ideally suited to implementing the particularly technically and politically difficult challenge, of drawing together and implementing a single, economically viable, 26 county water authority. Exactly the type of men we need in such positions.

Banjo String

micosoft wrote: »

Wow. Meaningful insight there.

Northern Ireland gets a subvention of £5000 million a year or 20% of their economy from the English People. Adjusted for population that's £12,500 million or €15,666 million Euro.

It's easy to get something done when you have a free €15,666,000,000 a year to buy votes.

And yet they still have property tax in Northern Ireland. And a terrible water system.

30, 000 people live in Leitrim (give or take), yet the average Dublin homeowners lpt will be many times higher than the average Leitrim homeowners. ( they're being subsidised too )

This is not a unique situation, far from it.

Also, AFAIK, the rates of income tax, vat, national insurance, motor tax and so on and so forth are the same in the north as they are in England, Scotland and Wales. (so they are not getting a free ride)

Comparing domestic rates to our LPT is laughable btw.

No Pants

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

More than almost everybody else.
With lengthy and wide of experience and success in public service management, they are both ideally suited to implementing the particularly technically and politically difficult challenge, of drawing together and implementing a single, economically viable, 26 county water authority. Exactly the type of men we need in such positions.

Really? Can you please point me towards a previous successful project that they were responsible for?

LordNorbury

Uriel. wrote: »

The vast majority of the country are absolutely destitute? Really? Please tell me you are not being serious?

So it's the Public Service that is destroying the country?

Yes, the vast majority of people in this country have very little disposable income at the end of the month, whether they are working or on the dole. I run a small business that is entirely dependent upon the activity in the domestic economy. I'm in my mid 30's but I can see it around me, people not having money to spend, because this government is shaking the whole country down for lumps of cash every single year. We noticed a recovery about a year ago, things were starting to pick up after they introduced the Property Tax, people got over that hurdle, and now there is another domestic crisis in small business because consumer sentiment has entrenched again, because of Water Charges.

We cannot hope for any recovery to take hold, for as long as this is the way the country is being run, where each attempt at recovery is being undermined by a state policy that aims to extract an another lump sum out of a household every year, and for what, to pay for what the dogs on the street know is excess waste and expenditure in the public sector. I know a teacher who is on 55K a year and works a 16.5 hour week, WTF?!?!? This guy has a 4 year arts degree and a H. Dip, nowhere in the private sector could he hope to get that sort of money and job security with the same qualification.

I work at the very front of this economy, where people trade with each other and if you think people are not being left absolutely broken by this government then you are obviously living in some protected/sheltered part of this economy if you are not seeing what I'm seeing and what everyone else is seeing btw, if you turn on the news or keep up to date on current affairs.

SaveOurLyric

LordNorbury wrote: »

Yes, the vast majority of people in this country have very little disposable income at the end of the month

You mean no.
By definition, if they have any disposable income at the end of the month, then they are not destitute.

No Pants

LordNorbury wrote: »

I know a teacher who is on 55K a year and works a 16.5 hour week, WTF?!?!? This guy has a 4 year arts degree and a H. Dip, nowhere in the private sector could he hope to get that sort of money and job security with the same qualification.

Setting aside how you how he's qualified, his working hours and his salary, would he also have the same responsibilities in the private sector?

I assume you're looking to cut his salary, increase his working hours or some other trite action like that without consideration of the consequence. Moving on, please explain how cutting the salary of the potential customers that you believe do have money is going to help get people spending.

Fukuyama

Banjo String wrote: »

30, 000 people live in Leitrim (give or take), yet the average Dublin homeowners lpt will be many times higher than the average Leitrim homeowners. ( they're being subsidised too )

This is not a unique situation, far from it.

Also, AFAIK, the rates of income tax, vat, national insurance, motor tax and so on and so forth are the same in the north as they are in England, Scotland and Wales. (so they are not getting a free ride)

Comparing domestic rates to our LPT is laughable btw.

NI is treated differently to Scotland and Wales in that it is viewed as a failing state in need of more money to police and maintain. Scotland pays its way via oil and gas. Wales via agri-business, agriculture and services. NI is a black hole for money that no government would want only Westminster is stuck with it.

Paying a tiny amount into the pot and getting loads out might not be a free ride but in the case of NI it's as good as.

end of the road

LordNorbury wrote: »

I know a teacher who works a 16.5 hour week

absolute rubbish, i'm sorry but it is, no teacher works a 16 hour week, i don't work in the education system yet i know that is just not true

pconn062

No Pants wrote: »

Really? Can you please point me towards a previous successful project that they were responsible for?

Before engaging with this particular poster can I suggest checking out their post history, especially the Marty in the Morning thread on the radio forum. They have a habit of posting things like this designed to encourage "debate" with the other posters. :rolleyes:

dxhound2005

LordNorbury wrote: »

Yes, the vast majority of people in this country have very little disposable income at the end of the month, whether they are working or on the dole. I run a small business that is entirely dependent upon the activity in the domestic economy. I'm in my mid 30's but I can see it around me, people not having money to spend, because this government is shaking the whole country down for lumps of cash every single year. We noticed a recovery about a year ago, things were starting to pick up after they introduced the Property Tax, people got over that hurdle, and now there is another domestic crisis in small business because consumer sentiment has entrenched again, because of Water Charges.

We cannot hope for any recovery to take hold, for as long as this is the way the country is being run, where each attempt at recovery is being undermined by a state policy that aims to extract an another lump sum out of a household every year, and for what, to pay for what the dogs on the street know is excess waste and expenditure in the public sector. I know a teacher who is on 55K a year and works a 16.5 hour week, WTF?!?!? This guy has a 4 year arts degree and a H. Dip, nowhere in the private sector could he hope to get that sort of money and job security with the same qualification.

I work at the very front of this economy, where people trade with each other and if you think people are not being left absolutely broken by this government then you are obviously living in some protected/sheltered part of this economy if you are not seeing what I'm seeing and what everyone else is seeing btw, if you turn on the news or keep up to date on current affairs.

If the vast majority have very little disposable income (you would need to quantify both of those) who spends €6.3 billion every year on alcohol? How can 30% of adults afford to smoke? Who is spending vast sums gambling?

I am all for people spending, it's how the economy works. But those three activities are completely optional and no individual would suffer by not spending their disposable income on any of them. Freeing up cash for other more sensible pursuits. Another activity which obviously helps the retail sector is the practice of buying food and then throwing it away. It costs the average houshold about €700 a year and again is totally unnecessary and very strange behaviour in times of austerity. Maybe it is a small elite who are drinking, smoking, gambling and wasting food but I somehow doubt it.

househero

Lots of homes are owned by non residents, people for example that live in England and come over when they get time off work...

They DONT PAY for water now. Directly or indirectly. Water charges mean that these people will stop getting free water we are paying for.

BUT our (income) tax DID pay for water before. They SHOULD lower income tax by €200 per person to make up for the EXTRA tax the gov will be collecting.

SaveOurLyric

pconn062 wrote: »

Marty in the Morning

Lyric FM, Monday to Friday, 7-10am.

[Deleted User]

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Lyric FM, Monday to Friday, 7-10am.

WTF has that to do with water meter protests? Have Hugo and Daphne had their meter installed yet?