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Child Item

Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Spring Onion

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Mass-grave-of-up-to-800-dead-babies-exposed-in-County-Galway-.html

Why isn't story getting more attention? Nothing surprises me about the cruelty of religious orders anymore but this article suggests babies were neglected to die on purpose.

And most parents in Ireland still think it should force their children to join this organisation...

EDIT (robindch): the petition is here:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

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Nodin

kylith wrote: »

Who gives two sh!ts if she actually said the word dumped or not? I'm saying it. If there is one body in that septic tank it was dumped there. Hells, I'm inclined to say that even if they were buried in the ground on the plot the fact that they weren't given a proper funeral would equate with them being dumped in my eyes. They were discarded with, apparently, ne'er a thought from the nuns.

If all you can do is quibble about whether or not she used a word rather than one of its synonyms then your entire argument is piss-poor.

Seeing the Nuns moved any of their own out of there when they left, its not inappropriate to call it "dumping". Jesus, they won't and didn't even shell out for a marker.

[Deleted User]

I Heart Internet. I'll try make this as short as possible.

Corless is distancing herself from this sentence "800 bodies are dumped in a septic tank". She is pointing out that she did not say this, and that she was not the originator of the phrase.

That is not equivalent to saying "800 bodies are not dumped in a septic tank".

If you think that these are the same, you are wrong. It's that simple. This conversation doesn't need to continue on this path either way.

gctest50

.

Doesn't matter if it's near a concrete tank , no proper grave = dumped

Ravenid

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No it's not. Whether 800 bodies, or 1, were dumped in a septic pit is very important to me. So important, in fact, that I'd actually like to know what happened.

Then talk about what happened not what someone might or might not have said.

All you have done is try and raise "The Interview" and you keep bringing you the Dumping part of it and skip over the rest.
It's what actually happened that's important not how it was phrased.

If you believed that you'd see that holding the thread back by arguing about Dumping is not what we need right now.

We should be talking about the issue itself.

I can guarantee you. You will never find out what happened by arguing if the word dumped was used or not.

Calina

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Then why do you insist on saying they were dumped when even Catherine Corless, who has more information than anyone/most says explicetly that they were not dumped?

She says she specifically did not use the word dumped. And I can understand that; however, what she is not saying is that they are not in that particular location.

However, the key issue - which maybe when you're done pontificating about dumped or not dumped - is that 796 young children died while in the care of the Bon Secours nuns in a given time period. No one seems to know where they were buried.

Now, I have to say that if they were buried somewhere that society would consider acceptable, I'm pretty sure that the Bon Secours would have told us by now. It is the first, the fastest defence to this scandal. It would have buried the story immediately. They have not done that.

From this I can only assume that either they don't know where the bodies were buried, or they do, and they know that it would not be considered acceptable. I'd like it if someone asked directly. Where were these children laid to rest?

If they don't know: bad. If it is in the plot of land currently identified as most likely site: bad. If next to what was previously a septic tank, but not actually in the tank location itself, bad.

Good would be in an identified graveyard. I think even you have to admit that's not the most likely outcome right now.

robindch

robindch wrote: »

At this stage, IHI, it's beginning to look like you're here just to troll the conversation. You can consider this a formal moderator warning to take part in an adult discussion about the thread topic or else be carded or banned for off-topic, self-centered rambling which is annoying just about everybody.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I read the transcript earlier, and viewed the video. The transcript is a transcript of the video recording, not a transcript of Rosita Boland's full interview. unless you're suggesting that Rosita Boland wrote her article based on 3min 33s of speech from Catherine Corless. Are you suggesting, just so I'm clear, that Rosita Boland is lying when she attributes the following words to Catherine Corless? Are you saying Catherine Corless never said this? Or are you just saying that it's not part of the 3min 33s video clip?

You have been carded for ignoring a mod instruction to take part in an adult conversation.

FYI, an "adult conversation" is one in which everybody discusses things that are of interest to the other people at the table as well as yourself, and in which it's done in a fashion which is as interesting and entertaining as possible. An "adult conversation" is not repeatedly banging on about something that nobody except to one poster seems to want to discuss, which is not of interest to anybody except one poster and which is irrelevant to the thread topic. For the sake of completeness, the thread topic is "Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam" and not "What Ms Corliss did or did not say in an interview which everybody has watched but still can't agree about whether or not she used a certain word at 3:33. Or not. As the case may, or may not, be."

I think it would be best for everybody if the entire subtopic about the disputed use of the word "dumped" is dropped.

Thanking youze.

Bannasidhe

Is there anyone in Galway who would be willing to visit the archives and access Galway Board of Health & Public Assistance, 1922 – 1941, (GC5/) includes minutes and abstracts of accounts and Home & Home Assistance Committee records. .

It is restricted but still a goldmine.

If anyone can please PM and I will tell you what to look for...

Tipsygypsy

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Is there anyone in Galway who would be willing to visit the archives and access Galway Board of Health & Public Assistance, 1922 – 1941, (GC5/) includes minutes and abstracts of accounts and Home & Home Assistance Committee records. .

It is restricted but still a goldmine.

If anyone can please PM and I will tell you what to look for...

When you say 'restricted'...? I'm in Galway and could put a few hours in if you pointed me in the right direction.

Bannasidhe

Tipsygypsy wrote: »

When you say 'restricted'...? I'm in Galway and could put a few hours in if you pointed me in the right direction.

PM sent.

The 'restriction' is in naming inmates. So you will need to sign a form saying you won't do that.

Not interested in the names of the inmates. They deserve to have their privacy respected, albeit at this late stage

I want the names of anyone connected in an official capacity - staff, nuns, board members etc. All of these would in the public domain (newspaper articles etc) but scattered across a variety of sources.

The minute books will list all attendees at meetings plus apologies from those absent and will usually refer to people like medical officers and staff by name - those are the names we want.

Myself and Obliq are hot on the heels of the civil authorities!

krankykitty

I'd help if I can do something in Dublin Bann...

lazybones32

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Until an excavation is conducted no one can say for sure.

One would think if there they went to the trouble to have ceremony they could have made a wee note about where the bodies were now wouldn't one.

Who wrote that by the way - you seem to have forgotten to provide a linky...

You don't know how to find the Sunday Independent from 08/06/2014?

lazybones32

Bannasidhe wrote: »

MODS - any chance of putting it in the charter that people who repeatedly post information that has been debunked time and time again in the same thread be infracted for time wasting and not bothering to read back even a few pages??

As I wrote, I did as the poster recommended and found his/her info to be incorrect. You chose to waste time reading and replying...

Bannasidhe

krankykitty wrote: »

I'd help if I can do something in Dublin Bann...

Hold that thought!

Dodd

Bannasidhe wrote: »

.

I think you were looking for this.

The tank became defunct in 1938 when a new drainage scheme came to Tuam.

http://connachttribune.ie/campaign-recognise-800-dead-tuam-babies/

lazybones32

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, but they totally made that up. The only facts we know are:

1) 796 children died, and their burials were not registered anywhere

2) The old septic tank was reported by locals to be full of human skeletons, little ones.

That's it for facts, so far.

"...totally made..up"? It's the Sunday Independent we're speaking of, not Weekly World News. I question why the 'truth' changes one morning after staying constant for 3 weeks.

1) No denial or dispute there.
2) It is assumed there are nothing but bones in there. The kids discovered it, reported it, a service was held and it was closed again without being examined.

Obliq

Dodd wrote: »

I think you were looking for this.

The tank became defunct in 1938 when a new drainage scheme came to Tuam.

http://connachttribune.ie/campaign-recognise-800-dead-tuam-babies/

I don't know now, did it? When was that thing I found about the Tuam rural DC looking for whether they could be connected to the urban scheme Bann? I'll go dig it up...

"Archives from 1937 call for “the removal of the cesspool at the back of the home” as the smell was intolerable. In 1938 the MO and Matron of the home pleaded for a new disinfecting chamber and laundry and six months later sent a letter to the Committee asking if anything could be done to speed up the process."

There ye go. It was from that wan calling us all "a clique of Irish secularists" as if it was a dirty thing to be. Don't know where she got it. http://carolinefarrow.com/2014/06/04/tuam-childrens-home-salting-the-earth/

Ps. Good job though Dodd! I can't find actual PROOF of the connection to the drainage though. Will leave it with ya ;-)

SpaceTime

Secularists were a terribly frightening thing for European aristocratic establishments elsewhere oh about 300+ years ago.

Great to see Ireland's finally catching up.

Does the person quoted actually realise that most of the developed world is fundamentally secular?

Zubeneschamali

lazybones32 wrote: »

I just love being right

Who wrote that article?

Who did you claim wrote that article?

For those playing along at home, Rosita Boland wrote the article. You claimed Catherine Corless wrote it.

You are wrong.

But you knew that, and you are just stirring it.

Zubeneschamali

lazybones32 wrote: »

"...totally made..up"? It's the Sunday Independent we're speaking of, not Weekly World News.

Ha ha! Bless your innocence!

Bannasidhe

Oookaayyy.

Attached image is from the Connacht Tribune 1928.

It is discussing a motion put to the Galway Homes and Homes Assistance Committee by a Mr. G. Lynch calling for a renegotiation of the contract drawn up (by solicitor to Galway Co.Co. Mr O'Dea) with the Bon Secours for financial maintenance of the children at St. Mary's, Tuam with a view to reducing the amount paid. It had been set at 10 schillings per week per child and it was felt this was far too high.

After all...some of the children were fed by their mothers so the funds payable for all children should be reduced... that's logical like...

From this and another few articles I have complied the following list of committee members 1927/28. Note - there seems to have been a cross membership thang going on between the H&H A Comm and The Hospital and Dispensaries Committee so the following name were members of one or both of these two august bodies. Hopefully tipsygypsy will be able to break it down better when she has a look at the minutes.

But in the meantime - lets see what we can find out about these worthies.

Rev. Canon MacAlinney (sp?)
Canon Ryder
Mr E Corbett*
Mr Crowe
Mr T Flanagan
Mr J Gallagher
Mr M Hallman
Mr Leonard
Mr G Lynch
Mr J McDonagh
Mr J McKeigue**
Mr M Mylotte
Mr J J Nestor
Mr S O'Connor

NAME AND SHAME #1
*

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSshS3cWwsKefgDQoMt0RajcFss1UdYzOfwQYdsRIuoZ-hiImTEZEcA4tLX

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSshS3cWwsKefgDQoMt0RajcFss1UdYzOfwQYdsRIuoZ-hiImTEZEcA4tLX

Eamonn Corbett - formally John Corbett of Kileeneenbeg, Galway. Son of Thomas Corbett a prosperous farmer. Literate and bi-lingual. (source 1911 census)
1914 - joined IRA
1916 IRA Brigade Adjutant under Larry Lardner - Commander Liam Mellows.
Sept 1916 Fled to U.S.
1918 Returned to Ireland - arrested for attempted murder of Constable John Clarke RIC.
1919 Released from Lincoln Gaol
1920 Chairman of Galway Co.Co. (source for above - Galway Advertiser)
1935 Elected to Dáil Éireann on Fianna Fáil ticket in Galway by-election.
1937 G.E. lost seat.
1943 Re-elected as FF TD for Galway West. (source Dáil members list)
1945 Died. Occupation listed at time of death :Insurance Broker. (wills and testaments National Archives)

Sat on committees overseeing Glennamaddy/St Mary's from 1921 - until 1944)

Will update as I get more info.

** John McKeigue
Obliq researching him. Evidence so far suggests he may have been an orphan himself.

iguana

I personally don't give a shít if each and every one of those children was given a full state funeral after they died and is now resting in a position of honour atop the hill of Tara. I care about the fact that they weren't loved, weren't cared for, were used and hurt and neglected until they died. Many of them should still be alive now. The younger ones should be driving their kids crazy because they give their grandkids ice-cream before they finish their dinner and the older ones should be knitting weird bloomer pants for their great-grandkids that unite the middle two generations in bafflement. They should be telling everyone they can corner about how much better summers were in their day and going on cruises to find some sunshine.

They didn't get a chance to live the amazing, mundane, loved lives that they deserved and that's what is making people angry

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

A team effort

When I read that post I thought of this:

bumper234

Over 23'000 people have now signed the petition, let's keep sharing and get this to 50,000

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

Obliq

iguana wrote: »

I personally don't give a shít if each and every one of those children was given a full state funeral after they died and is now resting in a position of honour atop the hill of Tara. I care about the fact that they weren't loved, weren't cared for, were used and hurt and neglected until they died. Many of them should still be alive now. The younger ones should be driving their kids crazy because they give their grandkids ice-cream before they finish their dinner and the older ones should be knitting weird bloomer pants for their great-grandkids that unite the middle two generations in bafflement. They should be telling everyone they can corner about how much better summers were in their day and going on cruises to find some sunshine.

They didn't get a chance to live the amazing, mundane, loved lives that they deserved and that's what is making people angry

First time a tear came to my eye over this. Like, I felt that but was trying not to think about it, if you know what I mean. Well said

RoadhouseBlues

I remember a young boy starting school here. He was a year behind me. On his first day he was kicking and screaming and crying. Probably the first time away from his parents. No pre school in those days. Anyway he was in such a state that he threw up. And the nun that was with him made him clean it up.

As a child I was sick and always in and out of hospital. I missed a lot of school because of this. The same nun I mentioned used to send bottles of Ribena out to the house to me and I think holy water. I heard other good reports about her over the years too. Strange when you think about it.

Moving on from that. I used to serve mass for years. There was one priest here for a while and after mass he would call the alter boys into the sacristy and he would shake hands with you. He would then squeeze your hand until he got a reaction from you. It was painful, a grown man squeezing a child's hand. Same priest one sunday morn after mass, gave each of us money out of the collection box to buy sweets. Only one that ever did it in all the years I served mass.

We had another priest and he was the funniest fecker you could ever meet. He would have both child and adult in the convulsions of laughter:-). And what do you think happened. He got transferred somewhere else. I heard since that he left the priesthood. Often wondered if it was true. Would be grand to meet him.

Don't know if any of this is relevant. I just thought I would throw it in here. I have said in another post that I have no interest in religion now. And also I just can't stop thinking about the babies. Sorry if that was off topic. Would just like to add that I am delighted and heartened by some of the investigating being carried out by some of the posters here. Especially *Bannasidhe*

Obliq

It's not off topic RoadHouseBlues. Folk have stuff to say, and there's many with some sorrow, even if it's about what they witnessed but didn't happen to them directly. It's about time we heard people's stories really...

lazygal

My mother and her sisters were referred to as "the country girls" along with non town dwellers in her school and not in a complimentary way. She also remembers incredible snobbery from the nuns when free secondary education was introduced and girls who's parents had paid fees were given superior education.
My father remembers children from the industrial school next to his school being treated completely differently from the others.

Both say everyone knew the church was snobby, elitist and uncaring but that going against the church was not really an option in rural Ireland.

bumper234

Obliq wrote: »

It's not off topic RoadHouseBlues. Folk have stuff to say, and there's many with some sorrow, even if it's about what they witnessed but didn't happen to them directly. It's about time we heard people's stories really...

Agree 100%

I'm sure there are many people reading this thread who could tell stories about dealings with nuns/priests (not all bad) who are thinking their stories don't count. Please do reconsider because no matter what your story we would like to hear it. This is not an anti catholic/priest/nun thread so please tell of you experiences.

lazygal

I'll share this.

Back in the day I was pretty religious as a child. Mainly because I was a goody two shoes who sought approval. I was the first female alter server in my parish.

The first mass I did was a quiet Saturday evening mass so "there wouldn't be a fuss". Our parents were told the girls would have to do a better job than the boys because people would be unused to girls serving mass and that they shouldn't draw any attention to us or mention it to anyone.

I don't know why I continued serving mass when I was being told as a child I was a second class person in the eyes of the church.

RoadhouseBlues

Obliq wrote: »

It's not off topic RoadHouseBlues. Folk have stuff to say, and there's many with some sorrow, even if it's about what they witnessed but didn't happen to them directly. It's about time we heard people's stories really...

Aye it would prob be good for them to talk about it too. And it might make it easier online as opposed to face to face with someone.

I was reading posts and I don't know if it was here or AH, but there was someone saying him and his brothers were in care and some died and one other is dying. He was asking what did people think was the life span of someone who grew up in care. It was horrible. I was nearly crying reading it. And me a grown man. I feel lucky that I escaped those times. Its made feel guilty for all the things I complain about these days. As in stupid things.