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Child Item

Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Spring Onion

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Mass-grave-of-up-to-800-dead-babies-exposed-in-County-Galway-.html

Why isn't story getting more attention? Nothing surprises me about the cruelty of religious orders anymore but this article suggests babies were neglected to die on purpose.

And most parents in Ireland still think it should force their children to join this organisation...

EDIT (robindch): the petition is here:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

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I Heart Internet

Wickerman1 wrote: »

It is worrying that people still try and defend the indefensible today!

It is.

Obliq

Akrasia wrote: »

Hold on a minute. You're saying that despite the evidence, we need to wait until there is a full investigation into the mass grave/conditions leading to the death of these children before we are allowed to be outraged

Then you imply we're only supposed to be outraged about new revelations.

The public should be outraged about the cumulative horrors of the RC Church. We should never stop being outraged about the violent physical and sexual abuse of children and the systematic cover-ups, We should never stop being outraged about the enslavement of women and children in these institutions.
We should never stop being outraged about how the church divided families, took babies away from their mothers, turned parents against their children, drove people out of the country for daring to have opinions or lifestyles that were not approved by the church.

Every new instance of horror that emerges from the RC church should add to the outrage. Catholic apologists should not be able to brush these atrocities under the carpet or pretend that they're no longer relevant because of the passage of some time.

The RC church and their apologists should be shamed into silence every time they try to give the church's opinion on issues of morality or ethics. Anyone who tries to argue that the church has any right to an involvement in our childrens education system should be shamed into silence by the evidence of how little the church as an institution cares about children

It's not just the RCC apologists that should be ashamed though, is it? Yes, I'm outraged at the churches that were enabled to carry out these criminal punishments, incarcerations and terrors on mothers and children. I also lump in every person who had a daughter/wife/sister committed in the full knowledge that they were shunning them from society and family and sending them to an unbearable fate.

Irish society was just as proportionally twisted as those horrendous people (also Irish) running the institutions. Each and every one of them justifying their cowardice with "the good book" as a moral guide and the threat of a bad name in the eyes of the church/society (inseparable as they were then).

It doesn't sit well with me when this myth about us Irish being so friendly and nice is perpetuated around the world. I'd rather be honest and say we're a small nation of 2nd/3rd generation very fcuked up people.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Talking of not ignoring things, I can't help noticing thisSurely this couldn't mean that some children were saved as a result of women being disempowered by an assertion of unlawful male paternalism?

Saved from being disempowered by male paternalism (of the time), puritanical Irish society and public opinion? Hardly.

Neyite

kylith wrote: »

Well, muckross-house.ie says that a farm labourer would earn about 15s a week - approx. 180d. What that'd be in new money I have no idea though. We can probably also assume that an industrial wage would be higher.

I've found an article that says the state paid 10' (is that shillings??) per week per inmate by Galway County Council to the Bon Secors in the Home in Tuam.
Women were to remain in there for a year, boys for 5 years and girls for 7.5 years.

So, that was 520' for the mother, and an average of 3250' for a child = 3770'.

Anyone able to understand pre-decimalisation money?? I havent a clue!

Lingua Franca

Obliq wrote: »

Saved from being disempowered by male paternalism (of the time), puritanical Irish society and public opinion? Hardly.

He's saying that a government official overstepping their brief to stop babies from dying of gastroenteritis is exactly the same as as men putting women into the laundries and the churches treating them like crap, because said government official was also male.

drumswan

Private firm conducts radar tests at Tuam site

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0606/621906-tuam-mass-grave/

Someones gone and bypassed our incompetent state

Lingua Franca

Neyite wrote: »

I've found an article that says the state paid 10' (is that shillings??) per week per inmate by Galway County Council to the Bon Secors in the Home in Tuam.
Women were to remain in there for a year, boys for 5 years and girls for 7.5 years.

So, that was 520' for the mother, and an average of 3250' for a child = 3770'.

Anyone able to understand pre-decimalisation money?? I havent a clue!

Another report based around 1950 said that they were paid a pound a head for each woman and child, that might be easier to work out.

Obliq

Lingua Franca wrote: »

He's saying that a government official overstepping their brief to stop babies from dying of gastroenteritis is exactly the same as as men putting women into the laundries and the churches treating them like crap, because said government official was also male.

Oh yeah....I must have deliberately misunderstood. Ooopsie.

looksee

There were 20 shillings to a pound, so the easiest way to calculate 10s a week for a year is to divide by 2 - 52 weeks = £26 per year, 5 years is £129, 7.5 years is £195

Paulownia

The most ghastly bit of this whole story is that the girl's parents allowed them to be put in these places, even arranged to have them put in and in many cases never saw them again.

Cabaal

Paulownia wrote: »

The most ghastly bit of this whole story is that the girl's parents allowed them to be put in these places, even arranged to have them put in and in many cases never saw them again.

I agree, its awful.
Parents.Family's felt immense shame when a unmarried women got pregnant, this shame of course didn't come from no where...it came from the catholic church

So yes while the family's are somewhat to blame, they were effectively bullied/brain washed into believing this utter nonsense.

Of course many familys didn't send their daughters to these homes, they sent them to America or England before the pregnancy became known....they had to, if the people in the town found out they would shun the family and the local priest would condemn them for their actions.

drumswan

Paulownia wrote: »

The most ghastly bit of this whole story is that the girl's parents allowed them to be put in these places, even arranged to have them put in and in many cases never saw them again.

The most ghastly part is that we had a totalitarian religious state that had people so brainwashed they handed over their own children to be beaten, tortured, starved, raped and murdered.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

No disagreement there. Alternatively, some people swear by Reiki.If incoherent, it will force the authorities to do something dumb. So, no. No to outrage, if it means we're not supposed to notice Reuters think someone dug up 800 skeletons in a place called "Toooo-am".

I though we were supposed to be against ignoring things, and making stuff up.Ah, here. If it's been the subject of much media discussion and a couple of Oireachtas debates, it's not like it's a secret.

And I'm not commenting on the "cumulative effect" of anything. The point is that some folk just don't know that the vaccination issue is already a matter of public record. I'd remind you again, I though we were supposed to be against ignoring things, and making stuff up.

Talking of not ignoring things, I can't help noticing thisSurely this couldn't mean that some children were saved as a result of women being disempowered by an assertion of unlawful male paternalism?

I said you had a point.

Not that I intend enter into a discussion with you while you pursue what ever your current agenda is.

Obliq

Cabaal wrote: »

I agree, its awful.
Parents.Family's felt immense shame when a unmarried women got pregnant, this shame of course didn't come from no where...it came from the catholic church

So yes while the family's are somewhat to blame, they were effectively bullied/brain washed into believing this utter nonsense.

drumswan wrote: »

The most ghastly part is that we had a totalitarian religious state that had people so brainwashed they handed over their own children to be beaten, tortured, starved, raped and murdered.

Yes, but what the hell is it about the Irish psyche that enables us to be brainwashed by an invasive religion? What makes the kind of black and white morality of the RCC so appealing to Irish people still? What made us accept such cruelty to each other? I think we need a collective sense of shame here, much like the Germans have tbh....

We can all say Oh yes, well we were a cowed and controlled society during occupation and the RCC was in the right place at the right time for full possession of the country, but even now we're not prepared to take a long hard look at the ways this passion for religious morals is still exacting cruelty on pregnant women and babies.

Where's our collective responsibility? Sometimes I hate this country (as a collective population, present company excluded ;-)) and won't apologise for that.

joseph brand

drumswan wrote: »

The most ghastly part is that we had a totalitarian religious state that had people so brainwashed they handed over their own children to be beaten, tortured, starved, raped and murdered.

The power of brainwashing.

I mean, how much would I have to offer the father of a girl who got pregnant out of wedlock, to kick her out of the house? These people did it for free. Not only that, but they went to mass on Sunday and put money in the basket. Absolute insanity. They all look like victims to me.

But the apologists today? Vile creatures. Idiocy is dangerous.

drumswan

Obliq wrote: »

Yes, but what the hell is it about the Irish psyche that enables us to be brainwashed by an invasive religion? What makes the kind of black and white morality of the RCC so appealing to Irish people still? What made us accept such cruelty to each other? I think we need a collective sense of shame here, much like the Germans have tbh....

The Nazi party are thankfully a relic of the past, the Germans have time and space to reflect, mourn and feel shame.

The RCC on the other hand, are still very much with us in Ireland. First they need to be destroyed, then we can look at reconciliation.

Obliq

drumswan wrote: »

The Nazi party are thankfully a relic of the past, the Germans have time and space to reflect, mourn and feel shame.

The RCC on the other hand, are still very much with us in Ireland. First they need to be destroyed, then we can look at reconciliation.

I'm talking about the first step - owning up - admitting wrong doing by virtue of supporting the RCC moral code and continuing to apologise for them. Acknowledging that their morals have caused and continue to cause immense cruelty. I hope to see it destroy itself from some kind of cathartic outrage from within, but I'm too cynical to expect it.

RoadhouseBlues

Hi folks. I'm a single man with no children. Born in the late 70's. Baptised as a catholic. I have gone back and read these posts from the beginning. I will be completely honest and am not ashamed to say, that a number of times I have had to get up, take a breather and wipe my eyes. It would take a cold heart not to be affected by these revelations.

When I was growing up we had confession, communion and confirmation. There was no question of not going to mass. You were made go. Religion has no interest for me since I've been out on my own. I am sure there are genuine priests and nuns out there but they need to demand changes or else just leave their church.

I remember hearing a story from around hear about a newborn baby dying before it got baptised. I think it was only back in the 70's. The local priest wouldn't allow the little one to be buried in the graveyard. The father had to get up on a Saturday morning and bury the tiny baby on their farm land. How can you justify that. As I said, I'm not a parent so I can't imagine how they felt. I also remember some of the "pillars" of the community. Are you ok father. Is that alright father. Can I get you anything else father. And they still do it. I can't understand it. I don't know what happened in that home. I can imagine but I can't prove it. Yet there are some people here ready to defend the slightest criticism of the church.

I signed that petition by the way and I hope its of some good. Also I would like to say that in my opinion it would be heartbreaking if there were prayers said over that grave. I hope those tiny babies will never be forgotten. Sorry for the long post.

Bannasidhe

Neyite wrote: »

I've found an article that says the state paid 10' (is that shillings??) per week per inmate by Galway County Council to the Bon Secors in the Home in Tuam.
Women were to remain in there for a year, boys for 5 years and girls for 7.5 years.

So, that was 520' for the mother, and an average of 3250' for a child = 3770'.

Anyone able to understand pre-decimalisation money?? I havent a clue!

20 shillings = £1
£ 1 1' shillings = A Guinea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_sterling#Pre-decimal

1928 10 shillings = 2014 £27. 38 or 33.64 euro

For every 10 inmates they got the equivalent of £ 273.78 or 337.64 euro per week.

1938 10 shillings = 2014 £29.32 or 36.16 euro

1948 10 shilling = 2014 £ 15.85 or 19.55 euro

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html

note: In 2014 the amount decided by the Dept of Social Protection as necessary for a child when calculating benefits is 29.80 euro pw.

To give you some idea - In 1967 my father was a Master Baker and the foreman at the Marina Bakery in Cork - one of, if not the, biggest bakery in Munster and his gross weekly pay was £10.

Also in 1944 child benefit was introduced for 3rd and subsequent children - usually paid to the father but depending on circumstances could be paid to mother/legal guardian. I am still trying to find out if CB would have been paid to the religious orders and the rate.

Wickerman1

drumswan wrote: »

The Nazi party are thankfully a relic of the past, the Germans have time and space to reflect, mourn and feel shame.

The RCC on the other hand, are still very much with us in Ireland. First they need to be destroyed, then we can look at reconciliation.

It has to start with removing religion from school syllabus.
Our children are still getting this stuff shoved down their necks in every school in Ireland!
As parents we seldom have a choice but to send our kids to a RCC school as they still hold control of the majority of schools in the land and sit as trustees dictating their curriculum.

Religion and education need to be separated, at best should be an after school activity for those who want it.

Bellatori

Bannasidhe wrote: »

13 shillings = £1
14 shillings = A Guinea.

When I was a child we still had farthings and threepenny bits (no rhyming slang please) and it was definitely

12d = 1s
20s= £1 = 240d
and £1/1/- was a guinea. Lawyers charged in guineas because the poor old clerk got paid the shilling i.e. 10%. A bit like a manager of a pop group only oppressed.

Then came diddle day... sorry I mean decimalisation day and my 1/10 packet of coffin nail number 10s now cost 10p (2/-)

2s=1 florin... It was a nightmare for the dyslexic like myself...

Bellatori

Wickerman1 wrote: »

It has to start with removing religion from school syllabus.
Our children are still getting this stuff shoved down their necks in every school in Ireland!
As parents we seldom have a choice but to send our kids to a RCC school as they still hold control of the majority of schools in the land and sit as trustees dictating their curriculum.

Religion and education need to be separated, at best should be an after school activity for those who want it.

I taught for 20+ years. Here in GB we have an act of religious worship every day as prescribed by some education act or other. It is possible to opt out if the parents make a fuss. I would like ALL parents to make a fuss just to see what happens. Even worse I suspect in schools that have a religious linke (CofE, RCC etc...).

It used to drive me mad. It got me a final warning at one school when I suggested that there might be an alternative view on miracles.

This is more difficult than Hercules and the Augean stables.

nagirrac

Bellatori wrote: »

2s=1 florin... It was a nightmare for the dyslexic like myself...

and not forgetting the glorious half crown, 2s6d
They go for ~$7 apiece now on eBay

Bannasidhe

Bellatori wrote: »

When I was a child we still had farthings and threepenny bits (no rhyming slang please) and it was definitely

12d = 1s
20s= £1 = 240d
and £1/1/- was a guinea. Lawyers charged in guineas because the poor old clerk got paid the shilling i.e. 10%. A bit like a manager of a pop group only oppressed.

Then came diddle day... sorry I mean decimalisation day and my 1/10 packet of coffin nail number 10s now cost 10p (2/-)

2s=1 florin... It was a nightmare for the dyslexic like myself...

Yes - my mistake. Got me shillings and pound mixed up.

Have corrected it now and provided links as to where I got the info.

I remember a packet of Tayto costing 1d (or one penny) and that was the late 1960s.

Bannasidhe

nagirrac wrote: »

and not forgetting the glorious half crown, 2s6d
They go for ~$7 apiece now on eBay

My godfather (and first cousin) promised me a half crown when my grandmother died for being a good girl - still feckin waiting for it :mad:

smacl

Bellatori wrote: »

When I was a child we still had farthings and threepenny bits (no rhyming slang please) and it was definitely

12d = 1s
20s= £1 = 240d
and £1/1/- was a guinea. Lawyers charged in guineas because the poor old clerk got paid the shilling i.e. 10%. A bit like a manager of a pop group only oppressed.

Then came diddle day... sorry I mean decimalisation day and my 1/10 packet of coffin nail number 10s now cost 10p (2/-)

2s=1 florin... It was a nightmare for the dyslexic like myself...

Memories of my youth, when a sixpence was worth less than five pence. And an english sixpence was made of silver so felt like real money, but our thruppence had a rabbit on it which was kind of cool. My favourite coin is still the old hapenny with the sow and her piglets. Priceless.

Spring Onion

RoadhouseBlues wrote: »

I am sure there are genuine priests and nuns out there but they need to demand changes or else just leave their church.

This. Where was the internal agitation during the decades of abuse, torture and murder? Where were the nuns and priests revolting internally at the way their organisation and turned so far away from the teachings of Jesus? Who stood up and said no more moving abusers on to new parishes?
Where were the whistleblowers to reveal the horrors of the Industrial schools, the Laudries or the Mother & Baby homes?
Did priests and nuns leave in disgust? I doubt it very much.
As someone said, it wasn't a few rotten apples, the whole barrel was rotten if nobody tried to stop the Roman organisation's evil.

Bellatori

Let's not get all maudlin over the 'good' times of the past:):)

There was a real sentimental attachment to the sixpence and a real fuss when it was abolished. Personally I loved the old threepence with its 12 sides. I have three of them beside me now. I know not why!?

Yes life was wonderful in the 50s. :rolleyes:

[EDIT] Actually my apologies. This is a serious thread which deserves a little better than my maudlin reminiscences. Sorry.

aloyisious

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes - my mistake. Got me shillings and pound mixed up.

Have corrected it now and provided links as to where I got the info.

I remember a packet of Tayto costing 1d (or one penny) and that was the late 1960s.

paper bag with the salt sachet?

aloyisious

Spring Onion wrote: »

This. Where was the internal agitation during the decades of abuse, torture and murder? Where were the nuns and priests revolting internally at the way their organisation and turned so far away from the teachings of Jesus? Who stood up and said no more moving abusers on to new parishes?
Where were the whistleblowers to reveal the horrors of the Industrial schools, the Laudries or the Mother & Baby homes?
Did priests and nuns leave in disgust? I doubt it very much.
As someone said, it wasn't a few rotten apples, the whole barrel was rotten if nobody tried to stop the Roman organisation's evil.

One did not (unfortunately) ask questions when alkward situations arose. It was seen as insolence (getting above one's station). The only clergy I know of that questioned dogma or authority are Pastor Niemoller and Father Bernard Lynch.

Bannasidhe

aloyisious wrote: »

One did not (unfortunately) ask questions when alkward situations arose. It was seen as insolence (getting above one's station). The only clergy I know of that questioned dogma or authority are Pastor Niemoller and Father Bernard Lynch.

Well, we know for a fact that even now the Vatican silences 'insolent' priests so one can only imagine how many were sent of to 'Retreats' in less liberal times.