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Child Item

796 children buried in Septic Tank in Galway - ### Mod Warning in 1st Post

KCC

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/04/world/europe/ireland-orphanages-mass-grave.html?_r=0

This story is now getting international attention which hopefully will put the pressure on the Irish media and government to investigate.

Mod: Folks, please refrain from making wild accusations and/or assumptions of murder and torture. And don't use this thread as another church bashing thread. If the story makes you so incensed that your can't post anything other than to express your hatred of the RCC, then just don't post and save us all some time. You can, of course, criticise the events and the people involved, but don't lose the run of yourselves.

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SEPT 23 1989

Fighting Irish wrote: »

It's an awful thing to happen, i agree with that, but an inquiry/garda investigation is just a waste of money at this point

I don't really get outraged at stuff that doesn't directly affect me

A waste of money was when the Irish taxpayers were taken to the cleaners over the corrupt deal between the extreme catholic right elements in the fianna fail crime family and their masters in the archbishops palace

jimgoose

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

A waste of money was when the Irish taxpayers were taken to the cleaners over the corrupt deal between the extreme catholic right elements in the fianna fail crime family and their masters in the archbishops palace

jimgoose likes this.

Dan_Solo

Czarcasm wrote: »

Please don't presume drumswan you're the only person who knows what they're talking about, let alone make the mistake of assuming people on the internet haven't personally experienced abuse and control by people who used religion as a tool to maintain discipline and order. People carried out these atrocities, religion didn't. Religion was just their excuse.

When a priest does good you thank the church. When he rapes children, you blame the man.
How convenient.
So, again: if good and evil depends on the man, what is the church FOR?

Dan_Solo

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Don't think that matters really

So if I took a relative of yours away to be a slave, starved their baby to death and dumped the body in a sewer, you'd say "that doesn't matter?"
LOL. Epic troll is epic.

Dan_Solo

Grayson wrote: »

Religion had reinforced whatever were the popular morals at a particular time. The Romans could have orgies. The Christians couldn't

WTF does that even mean. Two religions in the same country at the same time had different morals standards therefore religion reflects prevailing moral standards?
Are you trying to kill twin androids with that logic?

sabat

Fighting Irish wrote: »

I don't see how anything can be done really, stuff doesn't happen anymore. Does it really matter exactly how this happened?

You're getting a lot of stick here but I'm in agreement. What really has people riled up is the shoddy and gruesome nature of the disposal of the bodies-if they had been cremated or buried individually in marked graves there would be zero fuss over this. If a historian or researcher studied the mortality rates at the home with these alternative burial arrangements in place and released a report of their (admittedly unacceptable) findings it would be met with shrugs-everyone already knows these places were nasty sh1tholes. Even the use of the phrase "mass grave" seems to have triggered associations with war crimes, genocides and other rapid mass killings in peoples' heads when in reality it was just poverty and ignorance manifesting itself. 800+ autopsies on 60+ year-old skeletons is a huge waste of time and resources- do people honestly expect to see a 90 year-old nun up in a dock charged with murder or manslaughter? An enquiry will only benefit the legal parasites and professional handwringers.

PopePalpatine

Fighting Irish wrote: »

I don't really get outraged at stuff that doesn't directly affect me

First they came for the "fallen" women, but I didn't speak out.
Next they came for the widows, but I didn't speak out.
Then they came for the orphans, but I didn't speak out.

When the RCC's Gestapo came for me, nobody spoke out for me.

Dan_Solo

sabat wrote: »

when in reality it was just poverty and ignorance manifesting itself.

They had plenty of money.
What ignorance might this be? "I didn't know that babies need food"? Even a nun would be clever enough to guess that you'd have thought?

Pwindedd

Been reading about this for a couple of days now. It's such an emotive situation.

In an ideal world I would like the following to happen.

1. An investigation into how they died and why they weren't properly buried.
2. Where possible, bodies should be identified and full reparations made. I.e. Family contacted and proper burials conducted where appropriate. Full apologies should be made - without question - not sure who the head honcho is but they should be made to look these families in the eye.
3. Any workers at the Home still living today, interviewed and their responses catalogued and published. I don't know if criminal proceedings will help anyone, even in 1961 an eighteen year old would be 71 today. The older nuns would all be dead, senile or just too old to imprison.

In reality I know none of this will probably happen. The state that enabled this cruelty to exist in the first place will never publicly admit that they colluded with the church to dehumanise women and babies. All made possible by the repressive and intolerant society created by indoctrination.

On a side note - (and I'm not anti-catholic, anyone who knows my thoughts on this will confirm this) but until, we as a society, stop choosing the "default" catholic setting for our children, then we won't see any change in respect of catholic influence. If you are spiritually moved by Catholicism and feel that it's a good choice for your family - you go for it. More power to you. That goes for any other religion - Hindu, Muslim, Jedi - whatever floats your boat. However choosing to baptise your child to get him/her into a school or to keep your parents happy, or for the nice day that's in it. Well I just think this is weak, and disingenuous, to both religion and your children.

Czarcasm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

When a priest does good you thank the church. When he rapes children, you blame the man.
How convenient.

When a priest does good I thank the priest! When a priest rapes children I'd do everything in my power to make sure justice is sought for the victims. He's still a priest, but he's also a despicable human being.

I don't see why you feel the need to be so smug about that.

So, again: if good and evil depends on the man, what is the church FOR?

The RCC is a community, made up of it's members from every walk of life. The majority of it's members are well-meaning people, and then there are a minority of it's members are utter thundercnuts. You're a man who enjoys his statistics. You'll surely appreciate then when I say that among it's 1.2 billion members, the well-meaning people outnumber the thundercnuts by quite a margin.

There are many of those well-meaning people who are what are called Progressive Roman Catholics who are working within the Church to work towards a better Church, for all it's members, and not just the Hierarchy at the top.

If you put your compassion for humanity ahead of your anti-theism, then you'll see that most religious people would condemn these crimes against humanity, as the perpetrators are not representative of the RCC as a whole. You'll achieve nothing by telling anyone they are, when the facts are staring you in the face.

SpaceTime

PopePalpatine wrote: »

First they came for the "fallen" women, but I didn't speak out.
Next they came for the widows, but I didn't speak out.
Then they came for the orphans, but I didn't speak out.

When the RCC's Gestapo came for me, nobody spoke out for me.

Just be thankful for those who did speak out like Christine Buckley, Mary Rafferty and many others.

Also to all those people who shook up Irish society over the last 30 years.

If we had continued on the path we had been on, we would probably not be having this discussion as the internet would probably be filtered by the Committee Against Filth and the Holy Firewall operated by some nuns.

Dan_Solo

Czarcasm wrote: »

The RCC is a community, made up of it's members from every walk of life.

You're a man who likes simple questions. Apparently.
I didn't ask you what the RCC IS. We all know full well what it is.
I asked you what it is FOR if the RCC's moral compass is entirely dictated by the society around it. Were many people outside the church deliberately starving children to death and dumping them in sewers?

Cienciano

Nicely put by the Rubberbandits on twitter earlier:
http://imgur.com/7TAEOTm

SEPT 23 1989

RTE news playing the whole thing down again no dig a few scans and leave it in the history books

TheJug

Can anyone give me an address/phone for the office of Sr Marie Ryan, Country Leader, Bon Secours? Cork? Dublin? They have a premises in Lr Mount Street, but I believe she is the country leader for UK as well, so she might be based in London. Grateful for any leads.

Czarcasm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You're a man who likes simple questions. Apparently.
I didn't ask you what the RCC IS. We all know full well what it is.
I asked you what it is FOR if the RCC's moral compass is entirely dictated by the society around it. Were many people outside the church deliberately starving children to death and dumping them in sewers?

Dan I mean this with the greatest of respect, but you need to start thinking and talking for yourself rather than parroting Stephen Fry and using phrases like "We all know full well what it is", because not everyone thinks of the RCC the way you do. My wife is an atheist and she has never spewed the kind of hatred of the RCC that you do.

I've explained to you already what the Church is for, even who it's for; it's for people who share a common goal, a common interest, a shared perspective of humanity. The Church is for people who need hope.

Now before you spit coffee on your keyboard, again, I urge you to think about the vast majority of it's members who value the Church as a positive influence in their lives, and then there are the minority of members of the Church who would use it to further their own corrupt agenda.

Were more people in the RCC starving children to death and dumping them in sewers than those that didn't? Of course they weren't. Has the RCC a long history of atrocities and crimes against humanity? Yes it does. Every organization will inevitably have a minority of members who will corrupt it to further their own agenda.

I would also suggest that yes, there WERE many people outside the RCC who used numerous justifications to commit atrocities and crimes against humanity.

dharma200

A link to the synopsis of the research essay that opened this horrific can of worms for the Catholic Church https://m.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1382568855335119&id=1381096678815670
Very interesting reading......

Skrynesaver

So the order was paid slightly over the average industrial wage per mother. This money was intended to be used for their upkeep but was effectively embezzled from the state by the order who appear to have run the institutions on the slave labour of the mothers and trafficking in those children who survived the regime.

Surely, there should be a demand that the money be returned by the order or else assets will be seized to recover the value.

Dan_Solo

Czarcasm wrote: »

Dan I mean this with the greatest of respect, but you need to start thinking and talking for yourself rather than parroting Stephen Fry and using phrases like "We all know full well what it is", because not everyone thinks of the RCC the way you do. My wife is an atheist and she has never spewed the kind of hatred of the RCC that you do.

An anecdotal example of somebody who does not hate the RCC is not a particularly good defense of them TBH. And making an issue of the fact that I am repeating what somebody else has said is a bit ****ing ironic coming from someone who believes some auld cobblers magic spells scratched onto a papyrus 2000 years ago.

Czarcasm wrote: »

I've explained to you already what the Church is for, even who it's for; it's for people who share a common goal, a common interest, a shared perspective of humanity. The Church is for people who need hope.

That is some real suck ass meandering waffle. It is inherently meaningless gobbledegook. Do I need hope? Well I have it. Does that mean I need it? Are all Catholics "hope-less"? Hope for what? Empty vacuous phrases.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Now before you spit coffee on your keyboard, again, I urge you to think about the vast majority of it's members who value the Church as a positive influence in their lives, and then there are the minority of members of the Church who would use it to further their own corrupt agenda.

You haven't made even the most cursory attempt to explain why those two groups cannot overlap. Maybe a pedo priest or a baby murdering nun have a whale of a time in the RCC. In fact, it is about the only way they can get away with it is to have the RCC sanction their scumsuckery.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Were more people in the RCC starving children to death and dumping them in sewers than those that didn't? Of course they weren't. Has the RCC a long history of atrocities and crimes against humanity? Yes it does. Every organization will inevitably have a minority of members who will corrupt it to further their own agenda.

The Boy Scouts? The Lego Club? The Humanist Society? You know what, what you just said there is utter garbage. There are countless organisations who have never protected pedophiles or put babies in sewers. Cop on.

Czarcasm wrote: »

I would also suggest that yes, there WERE many people outside the RCC who used numerous justifications to commit atrocities and crimes against humanity.

You would suggest, would you? That means about as much as your hippie spiel earlier about sharing a common goal of er, um, what was that goal again... something to do with little boys and starving babies to death. Any evidence or just some fluffy hope that everybody else was starving babies too because that makes what your beloved RCC did all OK by the divine holy law of whataboutery?

crock!

http://theraggedwagon.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/new-evidence-that-irish-children-were-murdered/
Its terrible that this has happened.ive read some of the threads about brainwashing and how the church had so much power .
These priest and nuns read the bible every day and said there prayers.not that i read the bible but if i did im sure it says notten about
punishing single mothers like this or treating babys and kids like that.
Its come to light about priest and child abuse.
its come to light about laudry work houses
now mass graves with kids.
WHAT NEXT?
They sold babys.they worked young women and old very hard for no pay while linning there own pockets.
They preach about god and at the back of it all they had no heart.theres no excuse for any of these things that have being done.being religious or not.WE all know right from wrong weather it be 2014 or 1901.thats my rant over.theres a film on netflix or you can get it anywhere.its a documentry with priest and victims.its called silence in the house of god.watch it and you will see how far back the cover up goes

Reformed Character

Czarcasm wrote: »

Dan I mean this with the greatest of respect, but you need to start thinking and talking for yourself rather than parroting Stephen Fry and using phrases like "We all know full well what it is", because not everyone thinks of the RCC the way you do. My wife is an atheist and she has never spewed the kind of hatred of the RCC that you do.

I've explained to you already what the Church is for, even who it's for; it's for people who share a common goal, a common interest, a shared perspective of humanity. The Church is for people who need hope.

Now before you spit coffee on your keyboard, again, I urge you to think about the vast majority of it's members who value the Church as a positive influence in their lives, and then there are the minority of members of the Church who would use it to further their own corrupt agenda.

Were more people in the RCC starving children to death and dumping them in sewers than those that didn't? Of course they weren't. Has the RCC a long history of atrocities and crimes against humanity? Yes it does. Every organization will inevitably have a minority of members who will corrupt it to further their own agenda.

I would also suggest that yes, there WERE many people outside the RCC who used numerous justifications to commit atrocities and crimes against humanity.

Nice deflection.
Best I've seen since the Nuremburg trials, and it didn't work there either.

Dan_Solo

crock! wrote: »

These priest and nuns read the bible every day and said there prayers.not that i read the bible but if i did im sure it says notten about
punishing single mothers like this or treating babys and kids like that.

Actually it does. And plenty more.
Little surprise so many murderous pedophiles end up in their ranks I guess.
http://www.evilbible.com/
How d'ya like dem hope and shared vision for humanity apples?

Czarcasm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

An anecdotal example of somebody who does not hate the RCC is not a particularly good defense of them TBH.

...

whataboutery?

Let's get one thing straight Dan - I don't have to defend anything to you. I was only trying to offer you a perspective from my own point of view as a courtesy. Thankfully you're just as much an anecdotal example of atheism and your hatred of the RCC isn't representative of the many atheists I know, just like the people who committed these atrocities are anecdotal and aren't representative of the RCC.

With that said, I'm not going to continue this line of discussion with you and I think it is in everyone's interest if we let the thread get back on topic. If you have any more questions or queries, you're more than welcome to PM me instead of dragging this thread further off topic.

Dan_Solo

Czarcasm wrote: »

Let's get one thing straight Dan - I don't have to defend anything to you. I was only trying to offer you a perspective from my own point of view as a courtesy. Thankfully you're just as much an anecdotal example of atheism and your hatred of the RCC isn't representative of the many atheists I know, just like the people who committed these atrocities are anecdotal and aren't representative of the RCC.

Czar, I don't really give a flying one about what you feel you have to defend or not. That's up to you. I'm an anecdotal example am I? So? Isn't everybody? So what if I hate the RCC? I freely admit it. Now, how does that alter your or my case? You see, you can't just say "You hate the RCC" and expect people to therefore have more sympathy for your theories. I could as easily say "Sure he's a brainwashed Catholic, therefore I have automatically won this argument."

Czarcasm wrote: »

With that said, I'm not going to continue this line of discussion with you and I think it is in everyone's interest if we let the thread get back on topic. If you have any more questions or queries, you're more than welcome to PM me instead of dragging this thread further off topic.

Czar, YOU want to get back on topic?!?!? The guy with the "simple yes or no answer?" that nobody on the thread had a **** notion what had to do with anything? LOL!

Lingua Franca

crock! wrote: »

WHAT NEXT?

Home babies used for medical research, I'm afraid.

Dissections on deceased children and vaccine testing on live ones as far as I know. One woman said she had the four-in-one vaccine four times.

This is another issue from the Ryan report but they decided to close this one up and forget about it.

Dan_Solo

Czarcasm wrote: »

Dan I mean this with the greatest of respect

Can we have a show of hands here and see if ANYBODY believes Czarcasm when he says this?

(can I take a Thanks as a no?

)

Dan_Solo

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Home babies used for medical research, I'm afraid.

Dissections on deceased children and vaccine testing on live ones as far as I know. One woman said she had the four-in-one vaccine four times.

This is another issue from the Ryan report but they decided to close this one up and forget about it.

Any possible chance the holy club didn't get dollars american for this butchery?
(not that the guys doing the trials were any better)

Resonator75

It hurts to love and hate your own country at the same time. I am proud and ashamed at the same time. The Irish people are great, they Irish establishment is clearly a black evil thing that needs to be attacked and wiped away.

This week has topped off every scandal and shameful abuse from that last 100 years combined.

My grandmother and mother suffered so much because of the church and authorities in the past that this nearly 40 year old man is close to tears realizing what a lucky escape I had.

I could puke to be honest listening to RTE , the Garda and the Politicians.

Kiwi in IE

Czarcasm wrote: »

just like the people who committed these atrocities are anecdotal and aren't representative of the RCC.

But they were representatives of the RCC!

comongethappy

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

But they were representatives of the RCC!

People forget that (chosen amnesia).

Destruction of peoples lives is the modus operandi of the RCC in Ireland.

Vile at all levels whose destruction cannot come soon enough.