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Child Item

Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Spring Onion

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Mass-grave-of-up-to-800-dead-babies-exposed-in-County-Galway-.html

Why isn't story getting more attention? Nothing surprises me about the cruelty of religious orders anymore but this article suggests babies were neglected to die on purpose.

And most parents in Ireland still think it should force their children to join this organisation...

EDIT (robindch): the petition is here:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

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SpaceTime

My question still remains and I would really like a legal answer to this.

Under what law were they "committed"

Or was this just some board of health and church make-it-up-as-you go along false imprisonment scheme?

I Heart Internet

Cabaal wrote: »

So individually priests all over the world decided to do this on their own steam and the Vatican didn't tell them not to for decades?...
Right so,

Yeah, seems legit

But I don't think it was widespread (refusing to baptise illegitimate babies). Was it? Do you know if the 800 children who died in the Tuam home were baptised? Do you know if there was a rule in canon law or a direction not to? Someone pointed to the code of canon law in 1911 (I think) earlier and it seemed to suggest that there wasn't.

Bannasidhe

Fair play to 'de payper' (that's the Examiner to non-Corkonians) - they are really going for it and not pulling their punches.

At worst, we may be viewing systemic instances of infanticide and/or neglect not just at one such home but repeated throughout others, because the people paid for and tasked with caring for these vulnerable but ultimately invisible children regarded them as sub-human because of their non-marital status.

The operators of these homes, were by and large congregations of female religious orders invited to Ireland by local archbishops (as was the case for the Bons Secours order of nuns who ran the home in Tuam), by the primate of Ireland, archbishop John Charles McQuaid, or by the Irish State itself to deal with the problem of unmarried mothers.

The main concern of the Catholic Church’s hierarchy was at all costs to prevent the emigration of these women and girls to England where their children might be adopted into protestant homes — so thus began the State-sanctioned and funded system for incarcerating unmarried, pregnant women and girls in walled institutions where their sexuality would not offend or contaminate Catholic morals.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/ptuam-mother-and-baby-home-is-a-scandal-of-church-and-statep-271013.html

Birroc

SpaceTime wrote: »

My question still remains and I would really like a legal answer to this.

Under what law were they "committed"

Or was this just some board of health and church make-it-up-as-you go along false imprisonment scheme?

Great question. I often wondered that.

Bannasidhe

SpaceTime wrote: »

My question still remains and I would really like a legal answer to this.

Under what law were they "committed"

Or was this just some board of health and church make-it-up-as-you go along false imprisonment scheme?

Haven't time to go through this myself right now but this M.Litt thesis should give you the answer to your question.

UNMARRIED MOTHERS: THE LEGISLATIVE CONTEXT IN IRELAND, 1921
– 79
http://eprints.nuim.ie/4000/1/M._Litt._Thesis.pdf

older i get better i was

the gardai say they are famine bones! my jayzus the david mc savage sketches must be true about them what a shower of wasters. how sad.

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Whereas I will bet cash money that none of them were baptised. If they had been, they would have been buried in the adjoining graveyard

Thinking about this further, another possibility struck me. Perhaps the reason the babies were dumped in a pit instead of buried next door in the cemetery was nothing to do with baptism: a real burial plot would have cost the nuns money.

[Edit: This idea does not make me think better of the nuns in question]

Cabaal

I Heart Internet wrote: »

But I don't think it was widespread (refusing to baptise illegitimate babies).

But it was widespread throughout the world,

Widespread enough for the new Pope to mention that priests shouldn't be refusing kids in this day and age, he wasn't specifically referring to Ireland either.

He even baptised a unmarried couple's baby in January and it was broadcasted as a big deal and upset many people http://www.christianpost.com/news/pope-francis-causes-stir-for-baptizing-unmarried-couples-baby-in-sistine-chapel-tells-mothers-its-ok-to-breastfeed-in-church-112519/

Pope Francis, however, departed from that practice and agreed to baptize the child because he believes that the children of parents in an irregular situation shouldn't be made to feel like second-class faithful.

So thats now, when alot more priests have progressive views then say 50-60 years ago when they helped turn whole town's against people that they didn't like.

Seriously, stop trying to come up with excuses its actually sad at this stage.

Very clearly it was a widespread practice through the RCC to not baptise children of unmarried couples/women, if the Vatican didn't like this they could have changed it back in the 1920's...they didn't. and so this remained and people were treated as ****e.

I Heart Internet

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Thinking about this further, another possibility struck me. Perhaps the reason the babies were dumped in a pit instead of buried next door in the cemetery was nothing to do with baptism: a real burial plot would have cost the nuns money.

Yes. Could well be.

I just doubt that (even by their twisted logic), nuns that oversaw this regime could countenance the thought of unbaptised infants running around the place, no matter what the circumstances of their birth. I still think, kids born in those homes would, as normal for those times, be baptised pretty much before the cord was cut. That (and not any display of love and gentleness) would have been a priority for the nuns imho. But I could be totally wrong.

I Heart Internet

Cabaal wrote: »

Seriously, stop trying to come up with excuses its actually sad at this stage.

What exactly do you think I'm trying to excuse by considering and discussing if these children were baptised or not??

Bannasidhe

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yes. Could well be.

I just doubt that (even by their twisted logic), nuns that oversaw this regime could countenance the thought of unbaptised infants running around the place, no matter what the circumstances of their birth. I still think, kids born in those homes would, as normal for those times, be baptised pretty much before the cord was cut. That (and not any display of love and gentleness) would have been a priority for the nuns imho.

I would tend to agree with you, however given that what is emerging is a picture of illegitimate children been seen as 'subhuman' that may have have stilled the hands that splashed the water.

eviltwin

The news at one reporting these children may have been used in drug trials , it just gets worse

SpaceTime

eviltwin wrote: »

The news at one reporting these children may have been used in drug trials , it just gets worse

There was already evidence of that both here and in the United States during that period.

Bannasidhe

eviltwin wrote: »

The news at one reporting these children may have been used in drug trials , it just gets worse

There is already evidence of drug trails taking place in 'Mother and Baby' homes in the public domain - question is did it also happen in Tuam.

Mari Steed (50) was effectively used as a guinea pig during the 'four-in-one' vaccine trials carried out on her between December 1960 and October 1961 when she was between nine and 18 months old.

She was given up for adoption to a couple in the US shortly afterwards and is now preparing a class action in the US courts against the multinational drugs giant responsible for the medical tests, an Irish Independent investigation reveals.

Ms Steed and three others who were also subjected to the trials are looking to separately sue the Catholic religious order that they claim facilitated the experiments in the early 1960s.

She was administered the vaccine on at least four occasions at the Sacred Heart Convent, Bessborough, in Cork, also known as the Bessborough Mother and Baby Home.

Ms Steed became aware she had been subjected to the vaccine trials after she retrieved her medical documents while trying to track down her mother, Josephine, in the late 1990s.

Josephine, who is now in a nursing home in the UK, last night said the tests were carried out on her baby daughter without her consent or knowledge of her medical history.

- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/victim-in-legal-battle-over-infant-drug-trial-26673564.html#sthash.QlsCYHd2.dpuf

Solidarity with the Magdelenes just tweeted this

Get ‪#‎dollthedail‬ ‪#‎800babies‬ trending. Please leave a doll outside Dail to put pressure on the government.

If anyone in Dublin with a paypal account would be willing to place a doll there on my behalf I will send them the money.

bbsrs

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We can pressure all we like, and we probably will, but when it comes down to it do we think cops are going to investigate their uncles and grandparents? It'll be whitewashed over in the end alas, with a few sacrificial lambs shouldering most of the blame.

There's also quite a difference between ignoring an ongoing issue and being realistic (you may say cynical :pac: ) about what can be done afterwards.

Get the teaching of religon out of national schools for a start.

wp_rathead

SpaceTime wrote: »

There was already evidence of that both here and in the United States during that period.

Wasn't it mentioned in a PT not to long ago about this happening in some homes?

Bannasidhe

If anyone is interested, Mike Milotte’s seminal 1997 book Banished Babies: The Secret History of Ireland's Baby Export Business has been updated and made available as an ebook.

http://www.amazon.com/Banished-Babies-History-Irelands-Business-ebook/dp/B00IXQ1UZ2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1401971822&sr=8-2&keywords=Banished+Babies

GCU Flexible Demeanour

eviltwin wrote: »

The news at one reporting these children may have been used in drug trials , it just gets worse

This is not news.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/irelands-hidden-scandal-child-vaccine-trials-28553907.html

Cabaal

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If anyone is interested, Mike Milotte’s seminal 1997 book Banished Babies: The Secret History of Ireland's Baby Export Business has been updated and made available as an ebook.

http://www.amazon.com/Banished-Babies-History-Irelands-Business-ebook/dp/B00IXQ1UZ2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1401971822&sr=8-2&keywords=Banished+Babies

Kindle customers in Ireland may need to get it from .co.uk instead

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Banished-Babies-History-Irelands-Business-ebook/dp/B00IXQ1UZ2/

Bannasidhe

Cabaal wrote: »

Kindle customers in Ireland may need to get it from .co.uk instead

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Banished-Babies-History-Irelands-Business-ebook/dp/B00IXQ1UZ2/

Yes.

Forgot .com is my default setting.

Cabaal

http://www.thejournal.ie/tuam-mass-grave-government-reaction-1501143-Jun2014/

INDEPENDENT TD CATHERINE Murphy has called for the mass grave discovered on the site of a former Bon Secours mother and baby home in Tuam to be declared a crime scene.

Until the full facts are known I think its the best course of action,

iguana

Nearing 10k on the petition now. I'm going to send a link about it to Fitzgerald's office but not submit it yet because it's still steadily gaining numbers and there is no reason to close it as long as people are still signing it. I'm also going to email all my TDs in the Limerick city region about it. Can people in other regions who signed it please forward it to their TDs too.

If you want to, you could add that our original target of 2000 was exceeded in under 10 hours and the next target of 10k is likely to be exceeded 48 hours after the petition went live.

eviltwin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

This is not news.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/irelands-hidden-scandal-child-vaccine-trials-28553907.html

I'd never heard it before hence my reason for posting.

bumper234

iguana wrote: »

Nearing 10k on the petition now. I'm going to send a link about it to Fitzgerald's office but not submit it yet because it's still steadily gaining numbers and there is no reason to close it as long as people are still signing it. I'm also going to email all my TDs in the Limerick city region about it. Can people in other regions who signed it please forward it to their TDs too.

If you want to, you could add that our original target of 2000 was exceeded in under 10 hours and the next target of 10k is likely to be exceeded 48 hours after the petition went live.

and here is the link if anyone wants to know the email address of any TD

bumper234 wrote: »

A link to the email addresses of all TD's

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=25796&CatID=138

[Deleted User]

iguana wrote: »

Nearing 10k on the petition now. I'm going to send a link about it to Fitzgerald's office but not submit it yet because it's still steadily gaining numbers and there is no reason to close it as long as people are still signing it. I'm also going to email all my TDs in the Limerick city region about it. Can people in other regions who signed it please forward it to their TDs too.

If you want to, you could add that our original target of 2000 was exceeded in under 10 hours and the next target of 10k is likely to be exceeded 48 hours after the petition went live.

Be sure to cc the Children's minister's office.

I'd also mention that inaction might well prompt a second 10,000 strong petition for an inquiry into Fitzgerald's repeated ignorance of this issue (given the ARN report from some time ago), and a public discussion about whether or not we can be confident in her abilities and intentions as a Minister for Justice as a result.

aloyisious

SpaceTime wrote: »

I don't agree that anyone should be given immunity from prosecution!

It should be investigated as a potential crime scene. Special treatment can't just continue like this.

We are either all equal before the law, or the constitution isn't worth the paper it's written on.

I'm not even sure the state is capable of carrying out an objective investigation though.

I agree with you on the immunity bit, but recognize that if charges were brought by the state, they would be fought down to the dot on the i and unlikely to succeed. The odds of forensic evidence backed up by admissions of involvement would be extremely slight, with lots of lying on behalf of those involved. It's a fait accompli we're faced with here. It's probable that the bones (uncovered and opened to the air, then re-covered) have deteriorated over the decades making it unlikely they could be examined successfully, or even sorted out into individual skeleton systems for prosecution-identification. I don't want to derail the topic and let those responsible off the hook by default so I'll leave the issue of prosecution here and put my endeavours into getting the facts out about the failures and faults in the care of the children who died from. at least, neglect.

drumswan

Wheres the petition?

aloyisious

drumswan wrote: »

Wheres the petition?

It's on the "After Hours" page, topic-heading "796 children buried in septic tank in Galway"

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

jank

Bannasidhe wrote: »

They ran Bessborough in Cork - a name that instilled fear in many a Cork woman and they certainly have some questions to answer if this case is any indication.

I have quite close personal dealings with Bessborough seeing that I was born there and given up for adoption myself. My own experience has been nothing but positive and I have meet nuns there on many occasion who helped me trace my birth mother.

Surprisingly (and this will come to a shock to some who won't like to hear this) but my birth mother whom is non-religious and very very left wing has had nothing but good to say about her own treatment there and the level of care and support she was given. This came to a surprise to me as well when I heard her write this as I thought like most Irish people that by default she must have been shouted at, called names, judged, slapped and so forth... Well not so at all. Hmm, interesting I thought. Then I thought why did I think my original perceived reality of life for unwed women. Well, the media is powerful tool... snippets here are there of abuse in this church, that parish, this school, some institution, after a while one gets the impression the whole system is one big cesspit of corruption, secrets and abuse. It may be a perception and perception can be reality for some however, it is not actual reality.

This is actually the primary reason why I generally call for objectivity when it comes to any discussion when talking about the RCC and its past. History is generally not the knight in shining armour, dancing with fair maidens at the cross roads or the terrible deeds of Irelands Gulags past. It is much more nuanced and complicated than that. I personally feel that these events can only be judged from afar. Those that lived in those times may have been too fearful to speak out, those generation after suffer from the guilt, so make up with it by over playing their hand. I think we need the next generation or two to actually write the history of this time.

I reject mostly the atmosphere of fear that media and the internet perpetuate and generate when talking about Irelands past. Of course terrible things happened and they need to be investigated thoroughly by an independent body. The 'twitterisation' of news and media does not help proper reflection. Nobody actually thinks now, they react.

However, there seems to be a huge brush being painted here that every single person that has had a dealing with one of this religious orders or institutions was somehow mentally and/or physically abused in some way. Clearly in my case it was not the case.

Abuse did happen. It should not have happened at all. It should be reported of course to authorities and the media who should be responsible in its reporting. As we all know good news doesn't sell. I don't bemoan that fact that there are no good news stories coming out of places like this, as clearly there are but thats just the way it is. The people of yesterday didn't want to believe any of the bad news. Today people don't want to hear any of the good news. Ce la vie.

Going back to bessborough, I also know of other people who came from there as we had 'parties' of some sort where children who were adopted came together to have a gathering (cake, fizzy drink, parents chat over tea, that type of stuff, ). It was very open, no secrets and all this dark negativity that people think goes hand in and such like a place like this. I always knew where I came from and the nuns or priests who I talked to never judged me differently.

The place is still open as well, providing support to women and families.
http://www.bessborough.ie/about-us/
It is now overseen by the HSE.

This is my own personal reflection and experience much like the women who have come out with their own personal stories. Every story should be heard no matter how bad or how good it is. Only then can we come close to the real truth.

NS77

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If anyone in Dublin with a paypal account would be willing to place a doll there on my behalf I will send them the money.

No need for paypal - I'll leave one on your behalf ;-)