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Child Item

Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Spring Onion

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Mass-grave-of-up-to-800-dead-babies-exposed-in-County-Galway-.html

Why isn't story getting more attention? Nothing surprises me about the cruelty of religious orders anymore but this article suggests babies were neglected to die on purpose.

And most parents in Ireland still think it should force their children to join this organisation...

EDIT (robindch): the petition is here:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

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Flippyfloppy

lazygal wrote: »

I sometimes wonder what exactly will make people leave the church. Abuse, forced adoption,money, greed, corruption, no sense of humanity about women and children, no tolerance for gay people, insurance against compensation claims and now this. Yet people will baptise their children today, get married in the church, do communion and confirmation ceremonies and tick the Catholic box in the census counts. The church has no reason to.change anything because they still have a tight grip on so many people.

Maybe when the general public aren't taught about it from the age of 5, & get sucked into mass going for communion and altar serving and confirmations like a societal norm!

Cabaal

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/05/what-they-cant-get-away-with/

In March 10, 2010, a press conference was held in Maynooth during which three bishops – Bishop John McAreavey, of Dromore, Bishop Denis Brennan, of Ferns, and Bishop Christopher Jones, of Elfin – addressed the media.

The press conference was the first since the then Pope Benedict XVI had held a meeting with Irish bishops some four weeks previous, during which the matter of clerical child abuse was discussed.

That evening, Vincent Browne dedicated his show Tonight With Vincent Browne to the conference. On his panel were the late RTÉ investigative journalist and filmmaker Mary Raftery and Irish Times religious correspondent Patsy McGarry.

During their discussion, Ms Raftery talked about how incredible it was to hear a bishop complain about people singling out the church for covering up clerical child abuse.

Mary Raftery: “It’s extraordinary to hear a bishop ask people why people are singling out the church, in the context of asking questions about the cover-up of child abuse. When you look at who the moral arbiters are in society, who are, what is the organisation that we have allowed in Irish society and that have been to the fore in telling us what is right, what is wrong, what is morality, what is sin, what is virtue. And then, we discover, through a series of of reports that they have behaved with the greatest hypocrisy, according to their own rules and then bishops complain, and wonder why they’re being singled out and why it is we are asking these questions about them.

It displays, what it displays I think, is an amazing detachment from real life. I mean these people are obviously so disconnected, they’re so, they live in such a rarefied atmosphere, they haven’t the slightest comprehension as to why it is people get exercised over this issue.

And I mean I was very struck by the statement when the row broke in Ferns over Bishop Brennan, who indeed was there but who didn’t really say very much, looking for contributions to compensate people, looking for contributions from parishioners. There had been a redefinition almost of what it was that they were involved in, in terms of a cover-up, no mention of a cover-up, no mention of negligence, it was ‘mismanagement and/or lack of resolve’ and the ‘and/or’ really got me and ‘a lack of understanding’.

So this is now being minimised, the actual culpability. I was interested to hear Bishop McAreavey, he expressed it as ‘massively misguided’ and ‘massively wrong’ which is a bit of an advance on ‘and/or lack of resolve’.”

Vincent Browne: “In the statement, after the Vatican meeting, they called it errors of judgement…”

Raftery: “It’s absolutely extraordinary. I mean what they, what they respond to is how, the extent to which they’re pushed by what they perceive as public opinion. And they will only acknowledge a little inch, if they think that they can’t get away with it.”

There we go people, sex abuse cover ups, allowing baby's to die in unnaturally high rates and treating unmarried mothers like tired was all just a error of judgement....well thats ok then.

Jank / I Heart The Internet, I guess you were right all along, we shouldn't bad mouth the RCC or the Nuns like we have its totally unfair, sure everyone makes mistakes.

Fortunately for everyone here, our mistakes don't cause rape victims to be silenced or baby's to be thrown into septic tanks,

A petition calling on Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald to hold a full public inquiry into the mass grave in Tuam, Co. Galway can be signed here

lazygal

I miss Mary Raftery. She's a huge loss.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The news reels showed all the 'lucky' babies adopted by rich Americans and wasn't that better than being in an orphanage or below the poverty line being raised by a woman alone?

And we collectively accept much the same logic when we allow Irish couples to adopt from abroad, without especially caring about what power structures we are accommodating in the countries of origin.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The State bowed down to the dictators in cassocks and not only never challenged them (with rare exceptions such as Noel Browne), it rode on the RCC's slipstream to gain authority for itself.

Precisely. Put Irish people together in a State, and this is how they figured out questions of authority. Because, for all the folderol about Countess Markievicz looking resplendent wearing a Mauser, none of that really mattered.

So, if we want to be really challenging, we could ask how the Church was apparently so good at underwriting the power relationships that most people - including women - wanted.

Alternatively, we can just figure out that the current configuration of power relationships wants us to blindly kick the Church.

I still like that picture of the smiling boggers gathered in the cemetery in Tuam. I wonder if they're considering planning permission for the interpretive centre and gift shop.

Cabaal

Archbishop Michael Neary statement on the septic tank full of children

As you can see, he's clearly had coaching on how to make a statement when compared to the 2010 statement made by the Vatican in my other post.

I was greatly shocked, as we all were, to learn of the extent of the numbers of children buried in the grave-yard in Tuam. I was made aware of the magnitude of this situation by media reporting and historical research. I am horrified and saddened to hear of the large number of deceased children involved and this points to a time of great suffering and pain for the little ones and their mothers.I can only begin to imagine the huge emotional wrench which the mothers suffered in giving up their babies for adoption or by witnessing their death. Many of these young vulnerable women would already have been rejected by their families. The pain and brokenness which they endured is beyond our capacity to understand. It is simply too difficult to comprehend their helplessness and suffering as they watched their beloved child die.

Regardless of the time lapse involved this is a matter of great public concern which ought to be acted upon urgently. As the diocese did not have any involvement in the running of the home in Tuam we do not have any material relating to it in our archives. I understand that the material which the Bon Secours Sisters held, as managers of the Mother and Baby Home was handed over to Galway County Council and the health authorities in 1961.

I welcome the announcement today by Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Mr. Charlie Flanagan, TD to establish a Cross-Departmental examination for the burial arrangements of Children in Mother and Baby Homes. This will have the legal authority to examine the situation and to determine the truth. While the Archdiocese of Tuam will cooperate fully nonetheless there exists a clear moral imperative on the Bon Secours Sisters in this case to act upon their responsibilities in the interests of the common good.

The Diocese will continue to work with the Sisters and the local community to provide a suitable commemorative prayer based memorial service and plaque and to ensure that the deceased and their families will never be forgotten.

It will be a priority for me, in cooperation with the families of the deceased, to seek to obtain a dignified re-interment of the remains of the children in consecrated ground in Tuam.

May the Lord’s infinite mercy console all who have suffered and bring healing to their loved ones.

Is there anything a mass can't fix?
:rolleyes:

Did anyone including this Bishop stop for a second and think that maybe...just maybe, the mothers/relatives of these children should be traced and asked what they want to happen?

If it was me and I found out I had a relative in the septic tank I wouldn't want the catholic church involved in anything to do with a prayer, mass or plaque.

They are the cause of these abnormally high deaths and for the location of where the bodies were dumped, they are the very reason why these children were just dumped instead of given the respectful burial they deserved.

Zubeneschamali

lazygal wrote: »

I sometimes wonder what exactly will make people leave the church.

Just to drag this back to Atheism & Agnosticism - I think it is a basic error of logic to think that revelations of horrors and abuse by the religious should cause people to leave the Church. Christians have been committing atrocities in the name of the Church for thousands of years. Christianity even has a built-in excuse: original sin. It's all Eve's fault.

You leave the Church if you no longer believe, not if members commit horrible acts.

Now, maybe nuns committing horrible acts on children are enough to shake your belief in a benevolent God, but in that case I would have to say you haven't been paying much attention to the butchery, cruelty, famine and plague that have been the lot of most of humanity since forever.

Going Strong

Bannasidhe wrote: »

and don't forget the power of shame.

Shame intensified if the priest condemned you from the pulpit - as was their want. Toe the line or be cast out.

If anyone want to see an example of the sheer hypocrisy of the Irish clergy have a look at Bishop Eamonn Casey and Fr Michael Cleary.
See them dance and sing in front of thousands and the Pope while their illegitimate children were kept under wraps and out of the clutches of the good sisters of no-mercy and the no safe harbour bon secours.

Back in the mid- 1980's I was living in London. My girlfriend struck up a friendship with a guy who was about 16 or 17 and from Galway. He told her he'd been abused by the parish priest but nobody would believe him. When the priest found out about the complaints, he denounced the boy from the pulpit and encouraged the parish to have nothing more to do with him. 16 years of age and ostracised from his community on the word of the person who abused him. One story, amongst many. Too many.

Pherekydes

Pat Kenny will be addressing this issue on his show this morning. One of his guests will be David Quinn. Kenny said some might be surprised by the line Quinn will take on it.

But not the members of this forum, Pat.

lazygal

If David Quinn takes a surprising line it'll be to save his bacon not for any compassionate reasons.

Birroc

Cabaal wrote: »

On a more seriously note, Bannasidhe may I suggest you add a copy of your post to After Hours.

Hi, which post was that? I missed it.

Cabaal

Birroc wrote: »

Hi, which post was that? I missed it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90693857&postcount=851

I Heart Internet

Cabaal wrote: »

Did anyone including this Bishop stop for a second and think that maybe...just maybe, the mothers/relatives of these children should be traced and asked what they want to happen?

........in cooperation with the families of the deceased..........

Seems so. Yes.

robindch

Neyite wrote: »

Not anymore for me anyway. You may remember I had capitulated to agreeing to a catholic wedding service, but I am refusing to do that now. I hope to have more children and I do not intend to baptise. I deeply regret baptising the one I have, and really wish I could count us all out of Catholicism. I'm done after this.

I think that's a great move. It might be hard for some people, but I certainly wouldn't want my marriage tainted by association with the church and all its actions either.

Cabaal

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Seems so. Yes.

Its still his priority to re-inter the remains of the children in consecrated ground.

Given the catholic church has known about this septic tank for decades why hasn't this happened before now?......would it be perhaps because the church looked at these children as soulless scum? :mad:

Also his statement makes no mention of consulting familys when it comes to the mass, prayer service etc the catholic church wants to do.

So he is not consulting them on all aspects of what the church wants to get involved with, this is disrespectful to the children!

The Diocese will continue to work with the Sisters and the local community to provide a suitable commemorative prayer based memorial service and plaque and to ensure that the deceased and their families will never be forgotten.

It will be a priority for me, in cooperation with the families of the deceased, to seek to obtain a dignified re-interment of the remains of the children in consecrated ground in Tuam.

robindch

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/pressure-builds-for-tuam-babies-inquiry-1.1820942

There exists a clear moral imperative on the Bon Secours Sisters in this case to act upon their responsibilities in the interest of the common good,”

Said a certain Mr Neary who works in the area as a bishop, while washing his hands of any actual responsibility.

I suppose I'll be a while waiting for a churchman or a churchwomen to actually get up off their perfumed asses and *call* for an enquiry.

Bannasidhe

SW wrote: »

from that link:

:mad::mad::mad:

Edit: Have asked legal friends to have a look at the following and give an opinion on whether infringements of the Acts constitutes 'impropriety.'

The Gardaí must be unaware of the LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SANITARY SERVICES) ACT, 1948. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1948/en/act/pub/0003/print.html#sec44

PART VI.

Disposal of Bodies.

Restriction on places in which bodies may be buried.

44.—(1) Subject to the provisions of subsection (4) of this section a person shall not, without the consent of the Minister, bury the body of a deceased person in a place which is not a burial ground for the purposes of this section.

(2) The following (and no other) places shall be burial grounds for the purposes of this section—

(a) a place which is in lawful use as a burial ground and which was, immediately before the commencement of this section, in lawful use as a burial ground,

(b) a place as respects which the Minister has, after the commencement of this section, given his approval to its being used as a burial ground,

(c) a burial ground provided by a burial board under the Acts.

(3) Subject to the provisions of subsection (4) of this section a person shall not bury the body of a deceased person within the limits in which burials have by order under section 162 of the Act of 1878 been ordered to be discontinued in violation of the provisions of such order.

(4) Nothing in subsection (1) or (3) of this section shall prevent the burial of a clergyman in or adjacent to a church.

(5) A person who contravenes subsection (1) or subsection (3) of this section shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or, at the discretion of the Court, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.

So yes - they did break the law unless they had specific permission from a succession of ministers.

It's not a serious offence but it does potentially carry jail time.

The 1948 Act was an updating of the 1878 PUBLIC HEALTH (IRELAND) ACT

162. In case it shall appear to the Local Government Board, upon representation made to it or otherwise, that for the protection of public health the opening of any new burial ground in any city or town, or within any other limits in Ireland, save with the approval of the Local Government Board, should be prohibited, or that for such protection of public health, or for the maintenance of public decency, or to prevent a violation of the respect due to the remains of deceased persons, that burials in any city or town, or within any other limits, or in any burial ground or places of burial in Ireland, should be wholly discontinued, or should be discontinued subject to any exception or qualification, it shall be lawful for the Local Goverment Board to order that no new burial ground shall be opened in any city or town or within such limits, without such previous approval, or that after a time mentioned in the order burials in any such city or town, or within such limits, or in such burial grounds, or places of burial, shall be discontinued wholly or subject to any exceptions or qualifications mentioned in such order, and so from time to time as circumstances may require.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1878/en/act/pub/0052/print.html%20%20

Yup - putting corpses in a septic tank was illegal under that act too.

Cabaal

robindch wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/pressure-builds-for-tuam-babies-inquiry-1.1820942Said a certain Mr Neary who works in the area as a bishop, while washing his hands of any actual responsibility.

I suppose I'll be a while waiting for a churchman or a churchwomen to actually get up off their perfumed asses and *call* for an enquiry.

But didn't you hear, he's saddened by the whole thing

Why is it that you'll never hear the church say that a full investigation should be carried out, what happened was seriously wrong and Gardai should be involved if required and a compensation scheme should be setup for the mothers?

Whats wrong with them that they can't just pro-actively say stuff like this,. for once in their lives can't they be good, decent, reasonable and open people instead of carefully wording statements so they don't condemn anyone specifically.

Akrasia

Many people in Ireland just can not join the dots. My wife's mother was chased out of her house and told to never come back with her 'illegitmate child'. She was forced to give up her first born child by her mother. It was entirely catholic shame that caused this. This was only 28 years ago. My wife's grandfather still does not know about my wife's half sister, his own granddaughter.

Thank fukc things have changed. My wife and I had our first two children before we got married (in a civil ceremony) and there was never any suggestion that our children were 'illegitimate'.

The main thing that has changed is that mass attendances have plumetted and the power of the church has declined. These are the same people who have been liberated from the oppressive influence of the clergy. The mindset has changed completely. Ireland up to the 1980s was living in conditions functionally equivalent to a fascist dictatorship. A former lecturer of mine co-authored this paper http://www.ul.ie/ppa/content/files/258567748.pdf describing Ireland as a Catholic Corporatist State. It was fascistic and despite being nominally a republic, whichever of the two parties got elected, they both ultimately answered to the archbishops

Cabaal

Akrasia wrote: »

Thank fukc things have changed. My wife and I had our first two children before we got married (in a civil ceremony) and there was never any suggestion that our children were 'illegitimate'.

Not so sure about that,
I was talking to a women last year and she told me that the local priest refused to baptise her child because she had the child out of marriage and she was single/unmarried.

So while the avg Joe has changed their mindset, clearly the catholic church employee's are not all up to scratch on modern thinking.

Zubeneschamali

Cabaal wrote: »

I was talking to a women last year and she told me that the local priest refused to baptise her child because she had the child out of marriage and she was single/unmarried.

The difference is that this used to be a horrible stigma, and now it's only a minor nuisance getting into a primary school.

Flippyfloppy

Cabaal wrote: »

Not so sure about that,
I was talking to a women last year and she told me that the local priest refused to baptise her child because she had the child out of marriage and she was single/unmarried.

So while the avg Joe has changed their mindset, clearly the catholic church employee's are not all up to scratch on modern thinking.

So in his mind he was damning the child to hell? Nice. He should be reported to the archbishop.

I've certainly hear anecdotes of babies being refused baptism in some areas.

Cabaal

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

So in his mind he was damning the child to hell? Nice. He should be reported to the archbishop.

I've certainly hear anecdotes of babies being refused baptism in some areas.

I'd report him only for he doesn't impact my life in anyway,
I've thankfully have had very little interactions with the man, but from what little interactions I've had I've learned he's has some serious backwards views and he's a pretty ignorant man.

I know one person he baptise a baby for them, just before the event he said to the person "you better make this worth my while", he wasn't saying it in a joking way either.

[Deleted User]

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/mass-grave-galway-tuam-1494001-May2014/

jimgoose

Cabaal wrote: »

...what happened was seriously wrong and Gardai should be involved...

Gardaí have always been involved. They and the Church were historically two cheeks of the same arse, and still are to a large extent. This sort of mindset is illustrated nicely by their recent rather bizarre statement regarding the Tuam site being a relic of the Famine. Lot of concrete tanks and slabs around in them days right enough, squire.

Cabaal

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

So in his mind he was damning the child to hell?

perhaps,
But then isn't that what the nuns did to the kids in the septic tank?

Its worrying that 50-60 years on we still have people in position of respect (atleast to some in the community) that hold such backwards, twisted views and its just seen as alright because they continue to hold these positions.

jimgoose

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

So in his mind he was damning the child to hell? Nice. He should be reported to the archbishop.

I've certainly hear anecdotes of babies being refused baptism in some areas.

This is Roman Catholic orthodoxy. He was only following orders. We seem to have heard that song before...

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Cabaal wrote: »

Archbishop Michael Neary statement on the septic tank full of children

As you can see, he's clearly had coaching on how to make a statement when compared to the 2010 statement made by the Vatican in my other post.

Well, he's clearly as horrified as the rest of the country at the actions of the patriarchal, male-dominated Bons Secours Sisters.

Any sign of people in Cork cancelling their private health insurance on foot of these revelations?

pauldla

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

So in his mind he was damning the child to hell? Nice. He should be reported to the archbishop.

I've certainly hear anecdotes of babies being refused baptism in some areas.

Ach, yiz atheists, are yiz never happy. Yiz spend half the time givin' out about being baptised when ye were childer, and now yiz are complaining about priests refusing baptisms! I don't know what to make of ye at all....

Going Strong

jimgoose wrote: »

This is Roman Catholic orthodoxy. He was only following orders. We seem to have heard that song before...

The canon who instructed us on our Confirmation was virulently anti-Semitic. "Don't ever forget that the filthy Jews killed Jesus." he kept saying. After he died, it turned out he'd finagled a bequest of land to the church into his own name and left it to his own family instead.

The priesthood, a great bunch of lads.

eyescreamcone

But shur, they're not all bad ;-)