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Child Item

796 children buried in Septic Tank in Galway - ### Mod Warning in 1st Post

KCC

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/04/world/europe/ireland-orphanages-mass-grave.html?_r=0

This story is now getting international attention which hopefully will put the pressure on the Irish media and government to investigate.

Mod: Folks, please refrain from making wild accusations and/or assumptions of murder and torture. And don't use this thread as another church bashing thread. If the story makes you so incensed that your can't post anything other than to express your hatred of the RCC, then just don't post and save us all some time. You can, of course, criticise the events and the people involved, but don't lose the run of yourselves.

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steddyeddy

Karl Stein wrote: »

And that's the thing. They knew which kids didn't have a Mother/Father Uncle/Aunt who'd come to stand up for them. Little kids whose childhood was fear of violence and abuse when it should have been about being a happy kid.

You're right and that's the big thing. There is no part of me no matter how hidden that would ever attack or upset a child "because he had no one". I'm finding it hard to find words to describe the nuns.

KKkitty

My mother was born out of wedlock and raised by her grandparents but when she herself fell pregnant out of wedlock she was forced into a mother and baby home by god fearing relatives. While she was in labour she was slapped and told to shut up. That's what you get for your sins she was told. This find in Tuam shows a very disturbing side to the RCC but it will undoubtedly go unpunished. How many birth mothers are hearing of this atrocity and wondering if it was their son or daughter that was buried in a septic tank

Tardful Slakerly

KKkitty wrote: »

My mother was born out of wedlock and raised by her grandparents but when she herself fell pregnant out of wedlock she was forced into a mother and baby home by god fearing relatives. While she was in labour she was slapped and told to shut up. That's what you get for your sins she was told. This find in Tuam shows a very disturbing side to the RCC but it will undoubtedly go unpunished. How many birth mothers are hearing of this atrocity and wondering if it was their son or daughter that was buried in a septic tank

Even the word buried lends a dignity that these kids didn't receive.

KKkitty

Tardful Slakerly wrote: »

Even the word buried lends a dignity that these kids didn't receive.

If there was ever a need for time travel this would be it. Love to go back to that time and not stop til all those evil, depraved so called people were eradicated from society.

porsche959

According to SVERRE HELGESEN:

"Ronna Ricardo ... told me a few things about ritual masonic abuse of children, involving many top people.

"She was involved in supplying young girls...

"She was involved with Ward in trying to get a camera in to take photos of the abuses...

"She knew of one 10 year-old girl who disappeared after being taken to hospital by the police. Just vanished.

"There were rumours of an orphanage in Ireland (Ronna had contacts in the IRA) where men she named for me filmed children being abused by people specially chosen for blackmail - as they were being slowly strangled to death by Anthony Blunt. Snuff-movies."

ttp://aangirfan.blogspot.ie/2014/01/mysterious-stephen-ward.html

steddyeddy

KKkitty wrote: »

My mother was born out of wedlock and raised by her grandparents but when she herself fell pregnant out of wedlock she was forced into a mother and baby home by god fearing relatives. While she was in labour she was slapped and told to shut up. That's what you get for your sins she was told. This find in Tuam shows a very disturbing side to the RCC but it will undoubtedly go unpunished. How many birth mothers are hearing of this atrocity and wondering if it was their son or daughter that was buried in a septic tank

Do you know what Kitty, a friend of mine got pregnant years ago and gave birth in a rural part of Ireland. A nun came into the ward and told my friend "It's not all fun and games now" during the birth. Bitter virgins that's all they were.

gctest50

Tardful Slakerly wrote: »

Even the word buried lends a dignity that these kids didn't receive.

Dumped

Resonator75

What next? What horrors await uncovering? We truly have gone beyond the word 'scandal' into much darker realms.

A shameful time for this country and still the government run a mile and the guards ignore it. They are only upset because the already mountainous carpet had no more room for the truth to be hidden under.

This cant be allowed. These people work for us and we deserve answers and accountability if feasibly possible.

Most of all the memory of the victims needs to be honored and the survivors need to be acknowledged and in some way compensated.

As a country its the least we can do. This is our national shame.

Nazi's are still being hunted to this day. The awul, it happened a long time ago sthick does not cut it. Jesus happened a long time ago and folks take him very seriously.

Tarzana

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

The blame for this can't solely be put at the feet of the RCC. Our grandparents are every much to blame, our police service, our social services, our people. This is bigger than an organisation. Irish people did this and other Irish people allowed it to happen.

I doubt many laypeople knew what was going on, or if they had some inkling, the extent of it. I don't think it's fair to blame everyone in Ireland who happened to be an adult at that time. And it shifts focus away from the perpetrators.

Tarzana

denhaagenite wrote: »

Petition's at 7,000 now, moving quickly in the last few minutes but still thought it would be quicker getting to the paltry 10,000 mark. Sign and share, it might seem pointless but I think social media is the only way to go with this. Public pressure!!

http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/?copy

Think it's probably the email address requirement that is hurting it.

SpaceTime

Scandal's not really an appropriate term anymore.

Atrocity is more like it.

porsche959

Tarzana wrote: »

I doubt many laypeople knew what was going on, or if they had some inkling, the extent of it. I don't think it's fair to blame everyone in Ireland who happened to be an adult at that time. And it shifts focus away from the perpetrators.

Thousands and thousands turned a blind eye. They may not have known for a fact but it's clear that many turned a blind eye and did nothing about it.

For fear of - and ultimately, this is the worst crime in Ireland - being accused of "rocking the boat".

KKkitty

steddyeddy wrote: »

Do you know what Kitty, a friend of mine got pregnant years ago and gave birth in a rural part of Ireland. A nun came into the ward and told my friend "It's not all fun and games now" during the birth. Bitter virgins that's all they were.

I'm kinda on the fence with my religious beliefs but this discovery would nearly cement the fact that the RCC was nothing but a money grabbing, sexually and morally depraved organisation. Not all priests are bad though and I'm sure some were bullied themselves while this was going on if they threatened to speak out.

steddyeddy

KKkitty wrote: »

I'm kinda on the fence with my religious beliefs but this discovery would nearly cement the fact that the RCC was nothing but a money grabbing, sexually and morally depraved organisation. Not all priests are bad though and I'm sure some were bullied themselves while this was going on if they threatened to speak out.

I would largely agree with that.

Tarzana

porsche959 wrote: »

Thousands and thousands turned a blind eye. They may not have known for a fact but it's clear that many turned a blind eye and did nothing about it.

I'd say some turned a blind eye, but I'd say many others really did not have a clue what was going on, especially if nobody in their own family was sent away.

porsche959

Tarzana wrote: »

I doubt many laypeople knew what was going on, or if they had some inkling, the extent of it.

When you say "laypeople", do you include the guards that refused to investigate (and for example, there are reports on the record that in several cases, kids that ran away from homes and reported physical and/or sex abuse were taken into custody in garda stations and then escorted back to the home the day after?) and senior civil servants that failed to do the jobs they were paid by the taxpayer to do?

Tarzana wrote: »

I don't think it's fair to blame everyone in Ireland who happened to be an adult at that time.

I agree that it would be, but I don't think anyone has said that. I think a few posters, including myself, have said it raises a lot of questions of our parents/grandparents generation - questions that IMO are fair and legitimate.

Tarzana wrote: »

And it shifts focus away from the perpetrators.

That is a legitimate point without question.

Manach

Since I'd not found the original article this story is based on, my query is;
what would be an acceptable mortality rate? -if this was being run by either by solely the Irish state at the time (as was suggested in hindsight by Poly Tolybee), or compared with countries on the continent institutions during that time period.
With the medical and financial constraints of the time.

Recognition Scene

Manach wrote: »

Since I'd not found the original article this story is based on, my query is;
what would be an acceptable mortality rate? -if this was being run by either by solely the Irish state at the time (as was suggested in hindsight by Poly Tolybee), or compared with countries on the continent institutions during that time period.
With the medical and financial constraints of the time.

Some of the doublethink defending the church going on in this thread makes me despair. What financial constraints? These homes were receiving an inordinate amount of money from the state to (supposedly) look after these children.

porsche959

Manach wrote: »

Since I'd not found the original article this story is based on, my query is;
what would be an acceptable mortality rate? -if this was being run by either by solely the Irish state at the time (as was suggested in hindsight by Poly Tolybee), or compared with countries on the continent institutions during that time period.
With the medical and financial constraints of the time.

I'm not familar with article from Polly Toynbee - I tend to avoid reading articles from a news organisation that prides itself on telling truth to power, but has so far failed to investigate or report on the Elm House abuse scandal, among other matters (and I know for a fact they have all the necessary info), but it is an interesting poin that you raise.

My understanding is that in Ireland, the state essentially sub-contracted the role of child care for some sections of society to the Catholic Church, whereas in the UK (which has had numerous child abuse scandals, in some cases implicating thus far, according to numerous sources, unconvicted figures in high level positions) the state kept the role of child care for underprivileged, orphans, etc largely to itself.

Manach

Simple question - would the state have done a better job, and I'm unsure what is "an inordinate amount"?

porsche959

Recognition Scene wrote: »

Some of the doublethink defending the church going on in this thread makes me despair. What financial constraints? These homes were receiving an inordinate amount of money from the state to (supposedly) look after these children.

I can only speak for myself. I'm not a believer in any God, whether Roman Catholic Church version of God or any other version.

But it's not doublethink to ask why the role of child care was basically, sub-contracted to Roman Catholic Church for large period in recent history - and to some extent, still is.

Lady Spangles

It's a bit hard not to sound critical of the Catholic Church in this. But just look at what they're doing. Abortion is wrong and a sin against God and blah, blah, blah. But leaving society's unwanted babies to die in a sceptic tank is just fine. How can any rational person excuse this?

porsche959

Manach wrote: »

Simple question - would the state have done a better job, and I'm unsure what is "an inordinate amount"?

Well, we can't really make a judgement on whether the state would or would not have done a better job - as it's hypothetical.

I think we can say, that in Britain - where the state, by and large, did not chose to subcontract to RCC or other churches the role of child care for kids from underprivileged backgrounds - didn't do an all that great job. I think that the numerous investigations, some of which still very much ongoing, would probably indicate otherwise.

Tarzana

porsche959 wrote: »

When you say "laypeople", do you include the guards that refused to investigate (and for example, there are reports on the record that in several cases, kids that ran away from homes and reported physical and/or sex abuse were taken into custody in garda stations and then escorted back to the home the day after?) and senior civil servants that failed to do the jobs they were paid by the taxpayer to do?

No, of course not. The people you mention above are as much to blame. I mean people who weren't in the RC church or affiliated professions. And that would be a lot of people.

Blaming Irish people of that generation in their entirety allows blame to be diluted. You're doing the RC church a favour by doing that. I think of course that some laypeople might have had an idea. But I think a lot of people would have simply not have believed that the church was capable of such things. I guess that's complicity but we are also looking at it from a modern viewpoint. It's hard for us to imagine the stranglehold the church had on the country back then.

Adamantium

I don't think we have the character to face up to something like this as a country, 800 is a big number and we rationalise it away when the numbers get too big in the present. We 've never had this before in the past.
It's too faceless an discovery in a sense

And in the past:

People say they weren't to know at the time, but of course they were. Oh else was there?! That line is never said at the time, because they damn know it's all happening. So people escape into learned helplessness.

50 years from now, we will look at back at some horrific **** now and wonder how did this insanity go on, how did they not know, but we did, and complicit to it.

The fact that we have people trying to redefine "laypeople, who has less, more responsibilty, the churches", is a more mere hamstering. This was pitch black evil crimes against humanity, the extreme of any "humane" religion.

I sometimes did we all collectively go into collective cultural stress disorder after the Famine as individuals, and escape with alcoholism, RCC, when stuff like this goes down, only driving further into addictions.
I wonder if genetic memory and cultural memory is true.

Hell we even decided in history books and taught, that the Famine was more blight, than genocide.

I wonder if we'd have never has the Famine would the RCC being able to take hold of a PTSD population.

A ramble but there you go

Adamantium

Tarzana wrote: »

No, of course not. The people you mention above are as much to blame. I mean people who weren't in the RC church or affiliated professions. And that would be a lot of people.

Blaming Irish people of that generation in their entirety allows blame to be diluted. You're doing the RC church a favour by doing that.

Their religion probably allowed them to rationalise that the child was already "dead in the eyes of God from being born out of wedlock", and had the cognitive dissonance to put a dead malnourished baby in a septic tank. Even saying those words.... :mad:

Religion and brainwashing can block you from your intrinsic humanity, and it did everything to stop any goodness in the hearts of these nuns, from bubbling through.

KungPao

More 'evil' than the so called "Antichrist". It's actually mind boggling the power these ****s had (and still have) in this country. A scourge is all they are.

Recognition Scene

Manach wrote: »

Simple question - would the state have done a better job, and I'm unsure what is "an inordinate amount"?

As has been pointed out to you already by ReformedCharacter and and others over the course of the thread, being paid more than the industrial average wage per child is an "inordinate amount".

Would the state have done a better job? Maybe you're right. Maybe if the home had been state run the mortality rate would have been 600% of the national infant mortality rate at the time, as opposed to the mere 300% that occurred under the church's care. Or maybe the rates would have been in line with national rates at the time. Does the fact that there could never be an answer to your question make it ok?

porsche959 wrote: »

But it's not doublethink to ask why the role of child care was basically, sub-contracted to Roman Catholic Church for large period in recent history - and to some extent, still is.

Well of course it shouldn't have been (or still be), but that's a separate question to what I was addressing.

Cookie_Monster

I've heard 4,000 mentioned as a figure now instead of 'just' 800, is this the suspected number inclusive of those other sites mentioned?

Nodin

Manach wrote: »

Since I'd not found the original article this story is based on, my query is;
what would be an acceptable mortality rate? -if this was being run by either by solely the Irish state at the time (as was suggested in hindsight by Poly Tolybee), or compared with countries on the continent institutions during that time period.
With the medical and financial constraints of the time.

The same as the national average. Not four times it.