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Child Item

796 children buried in Septic Tank in Galway - ### Mod Warning in 1st Post

KCC

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/04/world/europe/ireland-orphanages-mass-grave.html?_r=0

This story is now getting international attention which hopefully will put the pressure on the Irish media and government to investigate.

Mod: Folks, please refrain from making wild accusations and/or assumptions of murder and torture. And don't use this thread as another church bashing thread. If the story makes you so incensed that your can't post anything other than to express your hatred of the RCC, then just don't post and save us all some time. You can, of course, criticise the events and the people involved, but don't lose the run of yourselves.

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[Deleted User]

Mortality rates of "Legitimate" vs "Illegitimate" babies during the period.

http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/mortality-rates.jpg

Taken from here - http://us.macmillan.com/motherandchild/LindseyEarnerByrne

Rhetorical : If "Mother and Child Inc" had been running the homes (and being paid for the 'service' by the state) and had similar figures, would they be under criminal investigation?

darkpagandeath

Wow just Wow the mental gymnastics going on here to defend an organisation with a history of child neglect/abuse which are facts that cannot be denied. 100 out of 800 is clearly a large percentage of deaths due to facts shown malnutrition. Any way you care to try spinning that it's glaringly obvious it's a large percentage. Would these defenders be so quick to the ramparts if this organisation was not RCC ? I mean would they defend 100 out of 800 people in a hospital dying of malnutrition or any other part of society so quickly.

Ravenid

Finland: 5 dead babies found. Person arrested for manslaughter. http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0604/621560-finland/
Ireland: 800 dead found. Ahh sure we'll think about doing something.http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0604/621550-tuam-grave/

bumper234

Ravenid wrote: »

Finland: 5 dead babies found. Person arrested for manslaughter.
Ireland: 800 dead found. Ahh sure we'll Say a mass and put up a plaque.

:eek:

FYP sorry

RobertKK

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Wow just Wow the mental gymnastics going on here to defend an organisation with a history of child neglect/abuse which are facts that cannot be denied. 100 out of 800 is clearly a large percentage of deaths due to facts shown malnutrition. Any way you care to try spinning that it's glaringly obvious it's a large percentage. Would these defenders be so quick to the ramparts if this organisation was not RCC ? I mean would they defend 100 out of 800 people in a hospital dying of malnutrition or any other part of society so quickly.

It is not defensible.

It is like that hospital in England where hundreds of patients died from sub standard care.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/213177/Hospital-patients-left-to-drink-water-from-vases

It doesn't mean everything about hospitals is bad...generalising all from one group as bad is just as wrong, and such generalisations can lead to bad things happening, as we saw with the Jews in WW2.

wildefalcon

RobertKK wrote: »

It is not defensible.

It is like that hospital in England where hundreds of patients died from sub standard care.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/213177/Hospital-patients-left-to-drink-water-from-vases

It doesn't mean everything about hospitals is bad...generalising all from one group as bad is just as wrong, and such generalisations can lead to bad things happening, as we saw with the Jews in WW2.

Here now! Asking for some Religious to be investigated and subject to the rule of law is hardly the same thing as putting millions of people to death in a gas chamber!

Nodin

RobertKK wrote: »

It is not defensible.

It is like that hospital in England where hundreds of patients died from sub standard care.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/213177/Hospital-patients-left-to-drink-water-from-vases

It doesn't mean everything about hospitals is bad...generalising all from one group as bad is just as wrong, and such generalisations can lead to bad things happening, as we saw with the Jews in WW2.

Nobody said all hospitals are bad. They are saying that its statistically shown that a great many church run mother and child homes were very bad indeed.

Pathetic comparison btw.

StudentDad

Ravenid wrote: »

Finland: 5 dead babies found. Person arrested for manslaughter. http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0604/621560-finland/
Ireland: 800 dead found. Ahh sure we'll think about doing something.http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0604/621550-tuam-grave/

It's worse than that. There would appear to be an attitude of indifference on the part of authorities here, that goes beyond, 'ah sure we'll think about doing something.' Probably because if real questions were asked, they'd lead to real answers and god forbid here in rainy auld Ireland that we actually have real answers coupled with real responsibility and culpability.

I've grown up in this country and year after year revelations about atrocity after atrocity come out. I've yet to see any real apology or prosecution.

This to my mind is one of those subjects that will be punted so far into touch my great grandkids may be forced to deal with it.

SD

RobertKK

StudentDad wrote: »

It's worse than that. There would appear to be an attitude of indifference on the part of authorities here, that goes beyond, 'ah sure we'll think about doing something.' Probably because if real questions were asked, they'd lead to real answers and god forbid here in rainy auld Ireland that we actually have real answers coupled with real responsibility and culpability.

I've grown up in this country and year after year revelations about atrocity after atrocity come out. I've yet to see any real apology or prosecution.

This to my mind is one of those subjects that will be punted so far into touch my great grandkids may be forced to deal with it.

SD

The difference is big between them.
Finland, known perpetrator and within the last 5 to 10 years.
Tuam - 50 to 90 years ago, most of those responsible likely dead or not far from it.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

RobertKK wrote: »

The difference is big between them.
Finland, known perpetrator and within the last 5 to 10 years.
Tuam - 50 to 90 years ago, most of those responsible likely dead or not far from it.

What about those who covered it up? Sean Brady springs to mind.

RobertKK

Nodin wrote: »

Nobody said all hospitals are bad. They are saying that its statistically shown that a great many church run mother and child homes were very bad indeed.

Pathetic comparison btw.

Really?
I was responding to I mean would they defend 100 out of 800 people in a hospital dying of malnutrition or any other part of society so quickly.

Pe0ple in that hospital were drinking water from flower vases the care was so bad, with 1200 deaths above normal.

I said it was all indefensible, but one wouldn't generalise all.

darkpagandeath

RobertKK wrote: »

The difference is big between them.
Finland, known perpetrator and within the last 5 to 10 years.
Tuam - 50 to 90 years ago, most of those responsible likely dead or not far from it.

The organisation is still with us and accountable.

RobertKK wrote: »

Really?
I was responding to I mean would they defend 100 out of 800 people in a hospital dying of malnutrition or any other part of society so quickly.

Pe0ple in that hospital were drinking water from flower vases the care was so bad, with 1200 deaths above normal.

I said it was all indefensible, but one wouldn't generalise all.

And they are being held to account

josip

RobertKK wrote: »

The difference is big between them.
Finland, known perpetrator and within the last 5 to 10 years.
Tuam - 50 to 90 years ago, most of those responsible likely dead or not far from it.

Never too old if they're still alive.
Most people supported trying and sentencing Laszlo Csatary and Eric Priebke.

RobertKK

wildefalcon wrote: »

Here now! Asking for some Religious to be investigated and subject to the rule of law is hardly the same thing as putting millions of people to death in a gas chamber!

I read one post that wanted it, the mods I see dealt with it.
I am just saying generalisations about the church or any group in society is not good. It has lead to genocide in the past - Rwanda, the ambassador of Rwanda to Nigeria speaking of the genocide that happened in his country -

What is common to Rwandans is bigger that what differentiates them. In Rwanda there is no Hutu language, there is no Hutu culture, in much the same way there is no Tutsis language, land or culture. The people of Rwanda are one people. All these differences are just what people manipulated and of course we the Rwandans were also guilty because we were naïve. They made us look as if we are different. Unfortunately generalisation causes problem.

A lot put 'the church' or 'RCC' and so do generalise to include all as bad, we know bad has happened because of such type of generalisations.
That is all I am saying.

wildefalcon

darkpagandeath wrote: »

The organisation is still with us and accountable.

This is a key point, I think that the concept of corporate manslaughter should apply a least.

Take Your Pants Off

I dont get this.
Dead children are buried, whats wrong with that?

RobertKK

josip wrote: »

Never too old if they're still alive.
Most people supported trying and sentencing Laszlo Csatary and Eric Priebke.

How many are alive though?

People have used Finland but do we know how many are alive from Tuam, that could be prosecuted and who actually was responsible?

--LOS--

Well......I'm feeling less homesick now

kylith wrote: »

There's a link to a petition campaigning for a full investigation in my sig. Sign and pass it on.

With the greatest respect, what do you hope to achieve with this petition? What happens if/when it reaches 10,000 signatures.

If anyone feels strongly enough about this, then I would urge them to write to government officials personally. It will have much much more of an effect than throwing your name on some petition, e-petitions really achieve very little if anything. A personal email/letter/face to face contact is much more powerful. So instead of being passive aggressive online, tell them yourselves instead of letting someone else speak for you.

eviltwin

RobertKK wrote: »

How many are alive though?

People have used Finland but do we know how many are alive from Tuam, that could be prosecuted and who actually was responsible?

Let's find out! Even if no one ever goes to prison over this at least there might be the possibility of answers as to what actually went on. It's surprising not one nun has ever come forward at any stage to disclose information. Just goes to show that the attitude to single mothers and their children is still there.

bumper234

Take Your Pants Off wrote: »

I dont get this.
Dead children are buried, whats wrong with that?

Not buried, Dumped in a cess pit with hundreds of other children.

josip

RobertKK wrote: »

How many are alive though?

People have used Finland but do we know how many are alive from Tuam, that could be prosecuted and who actually was responsible?

Possibly fewer now than 3 years ago when the Minister for Children was made aware of it.
But for a lot of people, the idea of not investigating or procastinating the investigation on the basis that the perpetrators might be already dead, would be a poor argument and the motives behind it questionable.

RobertKK

--LOS-- wrote: »

Well......I'm feeling less homesick now

With the greatest respect, what do you hope to achieve with this petition? What happens if/when it reaches 10,000 signatures.

If anyone feels strongly enough about this, then I would urge them to write to government officials personally. It will have much much more of an effect than throwing your name on some petition, e-petitions really achieve very little if anything. A personal email/letter/face to face contact is much more powerful. So instead of being passive aggressive online, tell them yourselves instead of letting someone else speak for you.

Those petitions achieve nothing, signed one in the past against F1 going to Bahrain because of the human rights issue when they were killing their own people, it got hundreds of thousands of signatures, the F1 race went on...

RobertKK

eviltwin wrote: »

Let's find out! Even if no one ever goes to prison over this at least there might be the possibility of answers as to what actually went on. It's surprising not one nun has ever come forward at any stage to disclose information. Just goes to show that the attitude to single mothers and their children is still there.

Agree, lets find out.

josip

--LOS-- wrote: »

If anyone feels strongly enough about this, then I would urge them to write to government officials personally. It will have much much more of an effect than throwing your name on some petition, e-petitions really achieve very little if anything. A personal email/letter/face to face contact is much more powerful. So instead of being passive aggressive online, tell them yourselves instead of letting someone else speak for you.

True, I emailed the local TDs, Enda and the Minister for Justice on the 13th of March demanding heads over the whistleblowers. I'm sure others did also.

Ash.J.Williams

going on some comments here, am i right in thinking that when the church receives praise, it's for the WHOLE church, but when it receives criticism, they are parishes and homes that are totally independent and not accountable to bishops etc.....

--LOS--

josip wrote: »

True, I emailed the local TDs, Enda and the Minister for Justice on the 13th of March demanding heads over the whistleblowers. I'm sure others did also.

Good, I hope people do stand up to this, lots of people feel very strongly about it on the thread.

I emailed Bear Grylls yesterday myself ¬_¬ :P

StudentDad

RobertKK wrote: »

Those petitions achieve nothing, signed one in the past against F1 going to Bahrain because of the human rights issue when they were killing their own people, it got hundreds of thousands of signatures, the F1 race went on...

Yes they do achieve something. They raise awareness of important issues. Issues that certain interest groups would rather go away.

It is a rather weak argument to say that too much time has elapsed. These issues raise issues of principle.

The bald fact is that 800 babies were dumped in a sewer under the oversight of a religious institution.

Questions need asking. We don't need an attitude of, a sure it was ages ago. Best leave that alone.

SD

Dravokivich

RobertKK wrote: »

The difference is big between them.
Finland, known perpetrator and within the last 5 to 10 years.
Tuam - 50 to 90 years ago, most of those responsible likely dead or not far from it.

That is no reason to dismiss looking into what happened here. Accountability should be determined. You were quick to question the reasons for these deaths, but just as much the potential for one person or a group of people being responsible for them should not be discarded because it may not be possible to proceed to charge them on it.

For as light hearted a film Philomena was for the most part, they had a magnificently touching scene near the end that expressed complete frustration at the idea that there was no accountability and no consideration towards those who suffered.

While I can understand your reasons to question some things on this matter, I don't get how you can seem to pass this off so lightly in the event that you find your line of questioning to provide unpleasant results.

darkpagandeath

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

going on some comments here, am i right in thinking that when the church receives praise, it's for the WHOLE church, but when it receives criticism, they are parishes and homes that are totally independent and not accountable to bishops etc.....

Exactly its an amazing disconnecting act aint it. A nun can be heralded as a saint and looked up to by all followers. Other nuns commit these heinous crimes, Then their not really part of the whole church.

snaphook

--LOS-- wrote: »

Well......I'm feeling less homesick now

With the greatest respect, what do you hope to achieve with this petition? What happens if/when it reaches 10,000 signatures.

If anyone feels strongly enough about this, then I would urge them to write to government officials personally. It will have much much more of an effect than throwing your name on some petition, e-petitions really achieve very little if anything. A personal email/letter/face to face contact is much more powerful. So instead of being passive aggressive online, tell them yourselves instead of letting someone else speak for you.

If anything it will raise awareness. It will get the word out in the hope that people would read it and form their own opinion.

This is a major discovery. Nobody I know of is talking about it.
RTE barely reported on it.

It's simply spreading facts.

796 children, who were deemed illegitimate according to the teachings of the RCC, died under the care of the Bon Secours Sisters, and considering they were deemed illegitimate they were not buried but instead were essentially disposed of in a Septic Tank which was retrofitted as a body disposal unit for these children.