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Child Item

Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Spring Onion

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Mass-grave-of-up-to-800-dead-babies-exposed-in-County-Galway-.html

Why isn't story getting more attention? Nothing surprises me about the cruelty of religious orders anymore but this article suggests babies were neglected to die on purpose.

And most parents in Ireland still think it should force their children to join this organisation...

EDIT (robindch): the petition is here:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

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Lisha

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Where is the evidence that 800 people died, were deliberatly murdered in fact, from being withheld food in this particular institution?

What is your explanation for numerous childrens bodies in a septic/water tank?

What is your explanation for the written evidence of inspectors that the children were poorly nourished and badly cared for?

I have an aunt who is a staunch catholic.
When the abuse by clergy was a leading topic on the news I heard her say 'why can't People just shut up about what happened, what good does uncovering all this do'
to her mind protecting the church was more important than protecting children.

I just cannot understand why and how people insist on Defending the indefensible .

iguana

Anyone want to suggest alternate wording before I start it?

We are calling for a full, official investigation of the deaths of the 796 children who's bodies were found in a mass grave in Tuam. The children are believed to have died while in the custody of the religious order of Bon Secours Sisters, between 1925 and 1961. The mortality rate for these children was 2 to 3 times higher than the national rate of infant mortality, and contemporaneous reports into the state of the home describe malnourished, uncared for children, despite the fact that the Irish State was providing financial remuneration to the Bon Secours Sisters for each child in their custody. The Gardaí need to fully investigate this without further delay and prosecutions must be made if anyone still living is found criminally liable. Anyone interfering with or refusing to cooperate with the investigation should also be charged.

Spring Onion

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I see that even before any of us have signed the petition, the investigation is over for a lot of posters.
Apparently exactly 800 babies were murdered by the nuns, nobody here on A&A really cares how where why or when.
All that matters to some folk is that we seem to have the magic ingredients
1. Dead babies
2. Nuns
Don't let's be bothered with a proper investigation . Don't show any sensitivity to the families of these babies who maybe still alive and suffering horrendously as a result of this discovery. Just get me my pitchfork im in a mood to lynch some religious. We don't need know investigation. Its murder! Murder I tells ya!

I think you are losing it MrsB

SpaceTime

Cabaal wrote: »

Washington Post now reporting on it,
http://m.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/06/03/bodies-of-800-babies-long-dead-found-in-septic-tank-at-former-irish-home-for-unwed-mothers/

Watch as the Irish media and political sphere picks up on it once it goes international... Oddly enough they tend to need a kick in the rear with international public condemnation before they react.

Cabaal

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I see that even before any of us have signed the petition, the investigation is over for a lot of posters.
Apparently exactly 800 babies were murdered by the nuns, nobody here on A&A really cares how where why or when.
All that matters to some folk is that we seem to have the magic ingredients
1. Dead babies
2. Nuns
Don't let's be bothered with a proper investigation . Don't show any sensitivity to the families of these babies who maybe still alive and suffering horrendously as a result of this discovery. Just get me my pitchfork im in a mood to lynch some religious. We don't need know investigation. Its murder! Murder I tells ya!

Have abit of respect will you?
Its not the time to make light of such a situation in the manner in which you're trying,

Only some very ignorant people have made some idiotic comments towards the women involved calling them dregs, nobody else has been insensitive to the women, baby's or the women's familys.

People here want this whole thing investigated and anyone involved brought to justice and any victims still alive (the mothers) compensated, if that involves taking assets belong to the religious organisation then thats the way it needs to be done....

As we know from previous investigations, every road block possible will be put in place by religious organizations to stop a full and proper investigation and compensation scheme. This is sickening and this is wrong when it comes to the victims and familys.

kylith

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I see that even before any of us have signed the petition, the investigation is over for a lot of posters.
Apparently exactly 800 babies were murdered by the nuns, nobody here on A&A really cares how where why or when.
All that matters to some folk is that we seem to have the magic ingredients
1. Dead babies
2. Nuns
Don't let's be bothered with a proper investigation . Don't show any sensitivity to the families of these babies who maybe still alive and suffering horrendously as a result of this discovery. Just get me my pitchfork im in a mood to lynch some religious. We don't need know investigation. Its murder! Murder I tells ya!

Well, they hardly neglected themselves to death, did they? Maybe some, maybe even most, died of natural causes exacerbated by their weakened state but they didn't put themselves in a septic tank, and the people who did put them there need to be held accountable.

I Heart Internet

Lisha wrote: »

What is your explanation for numerous childrens bodies in a septic/water tank?

I don't have one. I expect, it's rather mundane, a place was needed to put these bodies and this was chosen. No more, no less sad than that.

What's your evidence that people in the unmarked grave are murder victims?? That's a big claim.

Lisha wrote: »

What is your explanation for the written evidence of inspectors that the children were poorly nourished and badly cared for?

My explanation?? I believe that is what they found. Why would I think otherwise? Many of these homes were brutal, uncaring places and I could beleive that malnutrition was an issue. Very sad.

robindch

mrsbyrne wrote: »

[...] nobody here on A&A really cares how where why or when [...] Its murder! Murder I tells ya!

I suggest you read back through the thread before you make any further false and inflammatory comments.

You can start your investigation with this post, on page one:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90628261&postcount=11

eviltwin

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I see that even before any of us have signed the petition, the investigation is over for a lot of posters.
Apparently exactly 800 babies were murdered by the nuns, nobody here on A&A really cares how where why or when.
All that matters to some folk is that we seem to have the magic ingredients
1. Dead babies
2. Nuns
Don't let's be bothered with a proper investigation . Don't show any sensitivity to the families of these babies who maybe still alive and suffering horrendously as a result of this discovery. Just get me my pitchfork im in a mood to lynch some religious. We don't need know investigation. Its murder! Murder I tells ya!

Would you ever grow up? This is not about you or your religion.

Not everyone is claiming murder but the circumstances are suspect and given the previous history of the church and the general view of children at the time, in particular children in institutions its not exactly a stretch to think there might have been mistreatment of the children that contributed to their deaths.

Tabnabs

I Heart Internet wrote: »

My explanation?? I believe that is what they found. Why would I think otherwise? Many of these homes were brutal, uncaring places and I could beleive that malnutrition was an issue. Very sadCriminal act.

FYP...

I Heart Internet

Tabnabs wrote: »

FYP...

Perhaps. It merits a full investigation at least.

kylith

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I don't have one. I expect, it's rather mundane, a place was needed to put these bodies and this was chosen. No more, no less sad than that.

What's your evidence that people in the unmarked grave are murder victims?? That's a big claim.

My explanation?? I believe that is what they found. Why would I think otherwise? Many of these homes were brutal, uncaring places and I could beleive that malnutrition was an issue. Very sad.

Mundane? They needed somewhere to put the bodies? Are you honestly suggesting than for forty years the best place a religious order could find to put the corpses of babies who died in their care was a septic tank rather than consecrated ground?

I Heart Internet

kylith wrote: »

Mundane? They needed somewhere to put the bodies? Are you honestly suggesting than for forty years the best place a religious order could find to put the corpses of babies who died in their care was a septic tank rather than consecrated ground?

I'm not saying it was the "best place", I'm saying it was the place they decided (for whatever reason) to use. I'm not defending it, I'm simply answering the question.

iguana

Ok, here's the petition. Please share it on Facebook (and even Google Plus) urging as many signatures as possible. I've set it with a current goal of 2,000 signatures but ideally would like to increase that.

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

shruikan2553

kylith wrote: »

Mundane? They needed somewhere to put the bodies? Are you honestly suggesting than for forty years the best place a religious order could find to put the corpses of babies who died in their care was a septic tank rather than consecrated ground?

If they weren't baptised no consecrated ground for them. It would be a bit odd for a religious order not to clean these children of sin as soon as possible though.

kylith

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I'm not saying it was the "best place", I'm saying it was the place they decided (for whatever reason) to use. I'm not defending it, I'm simply answering the question.

They obviously decided to use it since that's where they ended up, but using it at all was an illegal act. You can't just go around dumping bodies wherever you like because the graveyard's a hassle to get to.

IMO the fact that they were dumped in a cess pit shows exactly what the nuns thought of these children.

bumper234

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I'm not saying it was the "best place", I'm saying it was the place they decided (for whatever reason) to use. I'm not defending it, I'm simply answering the question.

Would you in your own mind say these children were buried or were they dumped?

kylith

shruikan2553 wrote: »

If they weren't baptised no consecrated ground for them. It would be a bit odd for a religious order not to clean these children of sin as soon as possible though.

I'd find it very strange if they hadn't been baptised, especially since they weren't newborns. My grandmother gave birth to a son at around that time and he was pretty much baptised as soon as the cord was cut because he wasn't expected to live (he didn't).

Czarcasm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I am morally superior to someone who is trying to minimise the reality of the heinous crime that we are discussing on this thread. That is not me being arrogant or blowing my trumpet, but a simple statement of fact.

Your moral standards are your own business Brian, but your claim to be better than another human being based on your own personal belief that you are morally superior to them is what I was pointing out was no different to the attitude of those people 50 years ago who allowed this tragedy to happen. They thought they were morally superior too!

800 kids were murdered in this "care home" and their murders covered up by the perpetrators, and yet we've people on here declaring that the kids deserved to die because their mothers were "the dregs of society", or that because one person got a small detail wrong that the crime didn't happen or wasn't as bad as is being detailed (this would be the equivalent of somebody saying "Aha, there were no Jews killed at Auschwitz", simply because I got the Polish name for the town wrong). The fact that there are people willing to defend the criminals involved, and that I am shouted at for pointing out what they are doing, is frankly sickening in this day and age.

Nobody here has tried to play down anything, nor are they trying to defend the actions of those involved. They are simply saying that a FULL investigation must be carried out, to determine the full facts of the tragedy and get the details exact, because every detail is relevant. It might seem insignificant to you whether it was a water tank or a septic tank, but in a prosecution case, a detail like that could mean the difference between a conviction and an acquittal.

Nobody here suggested that these children deserved to die, and the 'dregs of society' really IS how these women and children were viewed BY society at the time. It wasn't that posters personal view, and you're certainly intelligent enough to have understood that, but you chose to twist it so you could yet again exert your moral superiority. That sort of twisting of opinions helps nobody.

Everyone here wants to see the people responsible for allowing this tragedy to happen, that they be held accountable and answerable and are made take responsibility for their actions. But an investigation like that could take years, and massive State resources, and at the end of it, this still wouldn't change the fact that nearly 800 human beings perished to their deaths in a tragedy that could have been prevented had people not been so concerned with being seen to be morally superior to anyone else.

SeaDaily

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Perhaps. It merits a full investigation at least.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

We're encouraging investigations that will yield more facts, as much factual information as possible is what I want.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

But I reccomend we hold off on the trail and punishment (of who? We don't even know that) until a full investigation gets to the bottom of it.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Agreed. But we should investigate to see how these remains were treated.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So there should be a thorough investigation to find out.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So, if we don't know, we should investigate the matter.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

That's why I say, time and again, that a proper investigation is required.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Conclusion suggests an end to the story. I'd prefer a thorough investigation before I conclude.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No. That's why I'm suggesting we investigate matters. The facts are important.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The allegations of the historian are very, very serious, so they deserve a serious investigation, not internet guesswork.

Sorry, your point has been unclear. What is it that you want?

AlanG

This is very sad. Not trying to absolve the church in any way for responsibility for this but most of the responses here reflect the Governments success in making the church take the vast majority of the blame for these events.

A large proportion of the blame should sit with the government of the day. Most of these were grandfathers, uncles or fathers of our current political representatives. Responsibility for the care of citizens ultimately lies with the state and yet many Irish people vote for people based on the great job that a candidates father, mother or uncle did. These were the people with whom responsibility for the care of these kids lay. The outsourced that care and chose to ignore or go along with the treatment handed out to these kids. Perhaps if they didn’t outsource education and health care to the church things would have been much worse or it would have been much better – we will never know.

mrsbyrne

Cabaal wrote: »

Have abit of respect will you?
Its not the time to make light of such a situation in the manner in which you're trying,

Only some very ignorant people have made some idiotic comments towards the women involved calling them dregs, nobody else has been insensitive to the women, baby's or the women's familys.

People here want this whole thing investigated and anyone involved brought to justice and any victims still alive (the mothers) compensated, if that involves taking assets belong to the religious organisation then thats the way it needs to be done....

As we know from previous investigations, every road block possible will be put in place by religious organizations to stop a full and proper investigation and compensation scheme. This is sickening and this is wrong when it comes to the victims and familys.

I don't agree at all that I am the one who is being disrespetfull here. Posters are alleging murder and abuse and criminality before any investigation has taken place. No poster seems to be cogniscent of the possibility that parents of these dead children could be still alive and finding these allegations very traumatising. The rush to judgment here is alarming based on such scant evidence. And these allegations are allowed to go on pretty much unfettered. There is no doubt that a lynch mob mentality is very prevalent here and it is very troubling.

I Heart Internet

bumper234 wrote: »

Would you in your own mind say these children were buried or were they dumped?

I'd say buried tbh. I don't know the full details though.

Nodin

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I don't agree at all that I am the one who is being disrespetfull here. Posters are alleging murder and abuse and criminality before any investigation has taken place. No poster seems to be cogniscent of the possibility that parents of these dead children could be still alive and finding these allegations very traumatising. The rush to judgment here is alarming based on such scant evidence. And these allegations are allowed to go on pretty much unfettered. There is no doubt that a lynch mob mentality is very prevalent here and it is very troubling.

Do explain then why the death rate was four times the national average.

Flippyfloppy

Does a mass burial in an unmarked grave = unlawful disposing of body?

Thanks for making the petition Cabaal Iguana.

Obviously every single person here wants this matter investigated. This thread is a good thing- anything to create awareness

I Heart Internet

SeaDaily wrote: »

Sorry, your point has been unclear. What is it that you want?

I want what the guy who set up the petition wants - an investigation.

SeaDaily

mrsbyrne wrote: »

No poster seems to be cogniscent of the possibility that parents of these dead children could be still alive and finding these allegations very traumatising.

I would imagine that any remaining parents of these dead children would be significantly more upset by your defence of the RCC than they would by people being justifiable outraged. It is posters such as yourself who are trying to play down this findings as if the RCC was, by some miracle, not directly involved in this atrocity. You are desperately trying to land the blame elsewhere where it just does not belong.

SeaDaily

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I want what the guy who set up the petition wants - an investigation.

Haha really? I had no idea.

kylith

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Posters are alleging murder

I'll leave this one for now.

mrsbyrne wrote: »

and abuse

The children in The Home were reported at the time to be pot bellied and malnourished. This is child abuse.

mrsbyrne wrote: »

and criminality

Improperly disposing of human remains is a criminal offence, as is neglect such as providing improper nourishment as above.

bumper234

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I'd say buried tbh. I don't know the full details though.

Ok

From the details you have so far, making an educated guess, would you still say they were buried? Or dumped?