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Child Item

Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Spring Onion

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Mass-grave-of-up-to-800-dead-babies-exposed-in-County-Galway-.html

Why isn't story getting more attention? Nothing surprises me about the cruelty of religious orders anymore but this article suggests babies were neglected to die on purpose.

And most parents in Ireland still think it should force their children to join this organisation...

EDIT (robindch): the petition is here:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

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Spring Onion

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I see that even before any of us have signed the petition, the investigation is over for a lot of posters.
Apparently exactly 800 babies were murdered by the nuns, nobody here on A&A really cares how where why or when.
All that matters to some folk is that we seem to have the magic ingredients
1. Dead babies
2. Nuns
Don't let's be bothered with a proper investigation . Don't show any sensitivity to the families of these babies who maybe still alive and suffering horrendously as a result of this discovery. Just get me my pitchfork im in a mood to lynch some religious. We don't need know investigation. Its murder! Murder I tells ya!

I think you are losing it MrsB

iguana

Anyone want to suggest alternate wording before I start it?

We are calling for a full, official investigation of the deaths of the 796 children who's bodies were found in a mass grave in Tuam. The children are believed to have died while in the custody of the religious order of Bon Secours Sisters, between 1925 and 1961. The mortality rate for these children was 2 to 3 times higher than the national rate of infant mortality, and contemporaneous reports into the state of the home describe malnourished, uncared for children, despite the fact that the Irish State was providing financial remuneration to the Bon Secours Sisters for each child in their custody. The Gardaí need to fully investigate this without further delay and prosecutions must be made if anyone still living is found criminally liable. Anyone interfering with or refusing to cooperate with the investigation should also be charged.

Lisha

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Where is the evidence that 800 people died, were deliberatly murdered in fact, from being withheld food in this particular institution?

What is your explanation for numerous childrens bodies in a septic/water tank?

What is your explanation for the written evidence of inspectors that the children were poorly nourished and badly cared for?

I have an aunt who is a staunch catholic.
When the abuse by clergy was a leading topic on the news I heard her say 'why can't People just shut up about what happened, what good does uncovering all this do'
to her mind protecting the church was more important than protecting children.

I just cannot understand why and how people insist on Defending the indefensible .

Birroc

Where is the petition for this inquiry?
The lack of action on this horrible crime is making me very angry.

Cabaal

Washington Post now reporting on it,
http://m.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/06/03/bodies-of-800-babies-long-dead-found-in-septic-tank-at-former-irish-home-for-unwed-mothers/

SpaceTime

I suppose the Church's main concern will be ensuring that it was a consecrated septic tank!

mrsbyrne

I see that even before any of us have signed the petition, the investigation is over for a lot of posters.
Apparently exactly 800 babies were murdered by the nuns, nobody here on A&A really cares how where why or when.
All that matters to some folk is that we seem to have the magic ingredients
1. Dead babies
2. Nuns
Don't let's be bothered with a proper investigation . Don't show any sensitivity to the families of these babies who maybe still alive and suffering horrendously as a result of this discovery. Just get me my pitchfork im in a mood to lynch some religious. We don't need know investigation. Its murder! Murder I tells ya!

robindch

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I am getting angry because people like Ryan are trivialising or trying to deny the deliberate murder (and don't kid yourself if you think otherwise) of 800 children by their state appointed guardians.

A judgement of "murder" is handed down by a duly constituted Court of Law and not by a Galway historian, no matter how well-intentioned (s)he is and regardless of how accurate (s)he is believed to be now, and subsequently turns out to be.

Until a legal judgement is made concerning this matter, the presumption of innocence -- granted, unlikely in this case -- prevails. And talk of murder and murders is premature, unhelpful and inflammatory and, should any of the people involved still be alive, potentially libellous.

I Heart Internet

Lisha wrote: »

Murder by neglect and abuse is still murder.

Where is the evidence that 800 people died, were deliberatly murdered in fact, from being withheld food in this particular institution?

Fries-With-That

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Has the site been excavated? How do you know there are 800 human remains there? Can you know for sure there are not 80 bodies? Or 8,000?

I think the figure of 800 bodies is being quoted because there are death records for over 750 available, and no records available for others known to have died in the institution.

Regardless of it being 1, 8, 80 or 800 an explanation should be made available to people that are upset that children were buried/placed/thrown into a disused septic tank.

The local council will have some explaining to do as they covered over the tank(without informing the Gardai allegedly) when the bodies first discovered by the public in the 1970's.

The local man that died in the last few weeks that erected a memorial and maintained the area planting flowers etc is to be applauded for keeping this in the public domain locally.

mrsbyrne

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Ye are all trying to minimise and deny the facts as laid down before ye. Just like a lot of Germans who denied the holocaust after being shown what happened by the Allies after the war, ye are trying to deny that a great evil happened.

Ye should be ashamed.

I'm not ashamed of anything. I havnt anything to be ashamed of.

Lisha

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Ah now....

Murder by neglect and abuse is still murder.

If I stopped feeding my child and s/he died, I would be guilty of murder.

Ffs if I stopped feeding my dog and it died that would be my fault too.

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

That comment is uncalled for.

Everybody - whilst this is an emotive topic, it's best dealt with with as much calm as each poster can manage.

I am getting angry because people like Ryan are trivialising or trying to deny the deliberate murder (and don't kid yourself if you think otherwise) of 800 children by their state appointed guardians.

I am sorry if come across too strong, but the words and actions of certain posters on this thread are heinous.

I Heart Internet

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

800 kids were murdered in this "care home" and their murders covered up by the perpetrators,

Ah now....

kylith

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that we should aim to answer all (or as many as possible) of the questions (and more) you list above. It's the least any human being buried there deserves, rather than seeking to attribute blame (for something, we're not quite sure what), in a vacumn.

I don;t think I will ever visit the site, same as most people on here. That shouldn't preclude me (or anyone else) from speaking about it. But I reccomend we hold off on the trail and punishment (of who? We don't even know that) until a full investigation gets to the bottom of it.

Well, that's how it comes across in your posts when you say things like

Yet you claim to know what happened.
Have you presented your evidence to the Gardai? Another poster on this thread claimed to "know" what happened at Tuam as well. If everybody who "knows' what happened at Tuam r any other potential scene of crime would simply present themselves at a Garda station and make a statement then it would expediate each investigation and the Guards could move swiftly through the process to where arrests could be made.

Saying things like that certainly gives the impression that you are saying that we should butt out unless we can give testimony to the Gardaí.

We do know what happened in Tuam to the extent that we know that 800 children, various of whose remains show signs of malnourishment congruent with a contemporary report, others who show signs of disease were interred without ceremony or proper record in a disused liquid tank while they were in the dubious care of an order of nuns, and at a period in history where the death rate should have been drastically lower, and while the nuns were receiving a large enough stipend from the government for their care that those children should have been eating like kings. In my opinion this is enough knowledge for any right-thinking person to lambaste this order.

I do believe that a full investigation should be carried out, but while a cause of death may be ascertainable for the children identifying them individually is likely to be completely impossible without having DNA from their mothers to compare, as I suspect that the nuns records may have been "lost in a fire" *. I also think that it's highly unlikely that a single nun will ever stand trial as any still living that can't claim the infirmity of old age will probably be coincidentally out of the country.

*So many documents of this kind were lost in fires that it's a wonder there's a convent left standing in the country.

Brian Shanahan

Czarcasm wrote: »

Jesus fcuking Christ, the sheer arrogance of it. You honestly think you're "better" than another human being because you think you're morally superior to them?

I am morally superior to someone who is trying to minimise the reality of the heinous crime that we are discussing on this thread. That is not me being arrogant or blowing my trumpet, but a simple statement of fact.

800 kids were murdered in this "care home" and their murders covered up by the perpetrators, and yet we've people on here declaring that the kids deserved to die because their mothers were "the dregs of society", or that because one person got a small detail wrong that the crime didn't happen or wasn't as bad as is being detailed (this would be the equivalent of somebody saying "Aha, there were no Jews killed at Auschwitz", simply because I got the Polish name for the town wrong). The fact that there are people willing to defend the criminals involved, and that I am shouted at for pointing out what they are doing, is frankly sickening in this day and age.

Lisha

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yes. It matters a great deal. Because then we will know how many people were buried there.

But you're right. One incident of mistreatement is too many.

Sorry I did not fully finish my point.

I think that serious efforts need to be made to identify each victim. The number matters because each person matters.
But in reading some comments on this thread it reads like some posters are trying to downplay the serious if this by muddying the waters and saying 'ah shure it was only xxx numbers'
No one here knows exactly what happened, but we do know that children's remains were disposed of in a septic/water tank.

Each person in that pit deserved dignity.
The actions of the nuns, the church in general and general society denied and stripped those children of basic dignity in life and death.

I am so disgusted at this story , I am very ashamed to be a catholic.

Flippyfloppy

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Yes but you don't know how the bodies got there. You don't know who put them there or why or when.
You are just speculating.
That's why there needs to be an investigation.
You don't appear to want an investigation . You appear to want to go straight from wild allegations to punishment phase.
BTW the Mercy Sisters won't be able to help the investigation as the actual Order of nuns is Bons Secours. Its always more productive to investigate the correct people.

Believe me, I certainly want an investigation. Read my posts - I am appalled at the fact that there has not been an investigation yet, and there is no word of one happening.

It has been brushed under the carpet until the media somehow picked up on it. I am not speculating I have not theorised about anything - however I think the facts we do know should warrant an immediate investigation. In the 1970s.

I Heart Internet

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Ye are all trying to minimise and deny the facts as laid down before ye.

No we're not. We're encouraging investigations that will yield more facts, as much factual information as possible is what I want.

Brian Shanahan

iguana wrote: »

Right, I'm going to start off an Avaaz petition today requesting a full Gardaí investigations and for prosecutions to happen if anyone still living is found criminally liable. And for birth and death certs to be issued for these children as they deserve at least that. Is Frances Fitzgerald the person to name to be lobbied?

Link please.

Brian Shanahan

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I heart internet ,ryan101 and I have all called for a full a and thorough investigation into the discovery of this apparent mass grave. I don't see obsfucating or nitpicking on this thread or shouting down. Where do you see it?

Ye are all trying to minimise and deny the facts as laid down before ye. Just like a lot of Germans who denied the holocaust after being shown what happened by the Allies after the war, ye are trying to deny that a great evil happened.

Ye should be ashamed.

SpaceTime

iguana wrote: »

Right, I'm going to start off an Avaaz petition today requesting a full Gardaí investigations and for prosecutions to happen if anyone still living is found criminally liable. And for birth and death certs to be issued for these children as they deserve at least that. Is Frances Fitzgerald the person to name to be lobbied?

Could you post a link?

bumper234

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that we should aim to answer all (or as many as possible) of the questions (and more) you list above. It's the least any human being buried there deserves, rather than seeking to attribute blame (for something, we're not quite sure what), in a vacumn.

Lets tell it like it is shall we? For starters those children were not "Buried" there they were dumped there, dumped by the very institution that were supposed to be caring for them. I don't care if one died of measles or all 800 died of natural causes they were let down by the Catholic church. The Catholic church who for hundreds of years have had the balls to preach to people about love and kindness yet refuse to show it to tiny human beings when they needed it most.

Suffer little children, just not in Ireland:mad:

Brian Shanahan

eviltwin wrote: »

Even if every child died of a natural cause dumping their remains in a tank like rubbish is a disgusting way to treat their bodies. You wouldn't treat a animal like that.

Plenty of people died of a natural cause in German Mental Institutions and Concentration Camps between 1933 and 1945, and yet there were people still tried for murder, because they were with power to stop these deaths yet did nothing, because people were slated to die in those ways.

And yes, I am comparing these homes to Nazi death camps, because it is a perfecly valid and appropriate comparison.

vibe666

If the catholic church believes that you cannot be absolved of your sins until you confess them, then why aren't they coming clean about all this kind of thing?

how many times do heinous crimes such as this have to be uncovered by other before they are held fully accountable for what they have done?

they call things like this "the shame of the church", but there is no shame for them when they show no guilt or remorse for what their organisation is responsible for.

Here's the latest I read this morning. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/02/nj-diocese-were-not-liable-because-molesting-boys-not-part-of-priests-official-duties/

Lawyers claim the Diocese of Trenton, New Jersey, should not be held liable for sexual abuse allegedly committed by a priest because he wasn’t officially “on duty” when he molested a teenage boy.

Chris Naples claimed Rev. Terence McAlinden, who once headed the diocese’s youth group, sexually abused him during church-sponsored trips to Delaware in the 1980s.

But diocese lawyers told the Delaware Supreme Court that McAlinden was not officially on duty when the abuse took place.

“You can determine a priest is not on duty when he is molesting a child, for example,” the attorney argued. “A priest abusing a child is absolutely contrary to the pursuit of his master’s business, to the work of a diocese.”

mrsbyrne

eviltwin wrote: »

Ditto, I'll share it around on FB too

I hope our christian friends can find it in themselves to do the same.

Certainly no need for any heart searching here. I've no problem signing it.

I Heart Internet

kylith wrote: »

AIUI I Heart Internet is saying that unless you have been to the site yourself and have counted the bodies, and unless you can point at each individual set of remains and say, for example, 'This is James O'Reilly, he died of measles', and unless you can personally say how many died of malnutrition and how many died of pneumonia, and unless you have personal first hand evidence then you can't actually prove that 800 small children died there, a death rate more suited to the mid 1700s than the mid 1900s and almost three times the national average at the time, and you should just shut up about it and stop being mean to the nuns.

No. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that we should aim to answer all (or as many as possible) of the questions (and more) you list above. It's the least any human being buried there deserves, rather than seeking to attribute blame (for something, we're not quite sure what), in a vacumn.

I don;t think I will ever visit the site, same as most people on here. That shouldn't preclude me (or anyone else) from speaking about it. But I reccomend we hold off on the trail and punishment (of who? We don't even know that) until a full investigation gets to the bottom of it.

robindch

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

And you know well who your betters are [...]

That comment is uncalled for.

Everybody - whilst this is an emotive topic, it's best dealt with with as much calm as each poster can manage.

eviltwin

Who owns the land now?

kylith

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Yes, everybody knows what happened. 800 bodies found in a mass grave. I really don't think the inverted commas are required there. Are you suggesting that 800 bodies have not been found? Or are you suggesting that no explanation is required from the sisters of mercy?

AIUI I Heart Internet is saying that unless you have been to the site yourself and have counted the bodies, and unless you can point at each individual set of remains and say, for example, 'This is James O'Reilly, he died of measles', and unless you can personally say how many died of malnutrition and how many died of pneumonia, and unless you have personal first hand evidence then you can't actually prove that 800 small children died there, a death rate more suited to the mid 1700s than the mid 1900s and almost three times the national average at the time, and you should just shut up about it and stop being mean to the nuns.