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Child Item

Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Spring Onion

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Mass-grave-of-up-to-800-dead-babies-exposed-in-County-Galway-.html

Why isn't story getting more attention? Nothing surprises me about the cruelty of religious orders anymore but this article suggests babies were neglected to die on purpose.

And most parents in Ireland still think it should force their children to join this organisation...

EDIT (robindch): the petition is here:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

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Flippyfloppy

mrsbyrne wrote: »

As far as I know an investigation has yet to take place, never mind conclusions being drawn.
Yet you claim to know what happened.
Have you presented your evidence to the Gardai? Another poster on this thread claimed to "know" what happened at Tuam as well. If everybody who "knows' what happened at Tuam r any other potential scene of crime would simply present themselves at a Garda station and make a statement then it would expediate each investigation and the Guards could move swiftly through the process to where arrests could be made.

Yes, everybody knows what happened. 800 bodies found in a mass grave. I really don't think the inverted commas are required there. Are you suggesting that 800 bodies have not been found? Or are you suggesting that no explanation is required from the sisters of mercy?

eviltwin

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So we should jump to the worst possible conclusion?

Doesn't the historian's report give soem details at least. Measles was attributed to some deaths. Measles was an appaling killer in the first half of this century. Would be more devastating in crowded environments.

No we shouldn't but questions need to be asked.

Even if every child died of a natural cause dumping their remains in a tank like rubbish is a disgusting way to treat their bodies. You wouldn't treat a animal like that.

Flippyfloppy

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yes, and a culture of complacency with regard to how children were treated in society, especially poor children.

Absolutely, I agree with that. :eek:

I Heart Internet

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Yes, everybody knows what happened. 800 bodies found in a mass grave. I really don't think the inverted commas are required there. Are you suggesting that 800 bodies have not been found? Or are you suggesting that no explanation is required from the sisters of mercy?

Has the site been excavated? How do you know there are 800 human remains there? Can you know for sure there are not 80 bodies? Or 8,000?

jank

aboysham wrote: »

Most people here are calling for judicial action.

As am I but I think when people are calling for extrajudicial action then you are no better than the RCC of old.

I Heart Internet

eviltwin wrote: »

No we shouldn't but questions need to be asked.

Even if every child died of a natural cause dumping their remains in a tank like rubbish is a disgusting way to treat their bodies. You wouldn't treat a animal like that.

Agreed. But we should investigate to see how these remains were treated. Not use emotive language that assumes the very worst of intentions and treatment.

shruikan2553

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Agreed. But we should investigate to see how these remains were treated. Not use emotive language that assumes the very worst of intentions and treatment.

Because mass unmarked grave surely has an innocent story behind it. Doesn't explain why the rate of death was a lot higher either.

ryan101

eviltwin wrote: »

No we shouldn't but questions need to be asked.

Even if every child died of a natural cause dumping their remains in a tank like rubbish is a disgusting way to treat their bodies. You wouldn't treat a animal like that.

Hundreds of similar burial grounds exist in Ireland. Our local hospital, and many others, have a mass burial site for still born and premature children and it used it up until the 70's. These sites should all be investigated as well. Even today miscarried children are treated as hospital waste.

What makes the Tuam site specifically different from all these other sites, is the older ages of the Children involved, so it should be made a priority for investigation.

Flippyfloppy

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Has the site been excavated? How do you know there are 800 human remains there? Can you know for sure there are not 80 bodies? Or 8,000?

Now, that's what you call speculation. How long is a piece of string?

The site has not being excavated, by the state anyway, because the State has ignored it's existence.

I Heart Internet

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Because mass unmarked grave surely has an innocent story behind it. Doesn't explain why the rate of death was a lot higher either.

So there should be a thorough investigation to find out.

dutopia

Did you watch RTE news when they reported this? They interviewed a priest at the site and he started out by saying "We can't judge the past...", I nearly spat my dinner out. Some nerve the church have.

SpaceTime

I know those posed photographs were probably for the annual report or whatever, but just look at the faces of those kids in the photo where they're all sitting around the tables eating.

There isn't a single smile and more telling, their eyes look 'dead'. That isn't how toddlers normally behave or look.

I Heart Internet

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Now, that's what you call speculation. How long is a piece of string?

The site has not being excavated, by the state anyway, because the State has ignored it's existence.

So how do you know there are 800 bodies contained within it? How do you know who they are, children or adults?

mrsbyrne

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Yes, everybody knows what happened. 800 bodies found in a mass grave. I really don't think the inverted commas are required there. Are you suggesting that 800 bodies have not been found? Or are you suggesting that no explanation is required from the sisters of mercy?

Yes but you don't know how the bodies got there. You don't know who put them there or why or when.
You are just speculating.
That's why there needs to be an investigation.
You don't appear to want an investigation . You appear to want to go straight from wild allegations to punishment phase.
BTW the Mercy Sisters won't be able to help the investigation as the actual Order of nuns is Bons Secours. Its always more productive to investigate the correct people.

jank

Cabaal wrote: »

I Heart Internet, most people in Ireland would gladly vote in a referendum to allow the Irish Government to have the powers to seize church assets which could be then sold to compensate victims.

However sympathetic I am towards the victims of abuse perpetrated by the RCC I think the idea above would be terrible and would just amount to mob rule in the Irish republic. Remember, there is a difference between a democracy and a republic. Ireland is or at least is supposed to be a republic.

Do you have figures to back your claim that most people in Ireland would support this 'referendum'? If this was to transpire you may as well erase all rights of private property of the Irish constituion.

I Heart Internet

SpaceTime wrote: »

I know those posed photographs were probably for the annual report or whatever, but just look at the faces of those kids in the photo where they're all sitting around the tables eating.

There isn't a single smile and more telling, their eyes look 'dead'. That isn't how toddlers normally behave or look.

The kids in the top picture look positively charming.

Brian Shanahan

ryan101 wrote: »

Actual facts and what actually took place is important, I've called for a full independent investigation and for the Gardai to investigate, if any crime has been committed then there should be prosecutions, a trial and prison for anyone found guilty.

What do you mean "your betters" ?

As I said above, stop trying to shout down your betters when your peers are, like you, trying to obfuscate or nitpick this outrage away from the spotlight.

And you know well who your betters are, they are those of us whose moral outrage at this or equiavlent crimes is not diminished by the fact that those committing the crimes are the leaders of whatever religious or political faction you believe in.

SpaceTime

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The kids in the top picture look positively charming.

Based on the facts though, and the accounts of various people who'd been through those 'homes', I doubt those pictures were very reflective of reality. They look like the PR shots or the photos they sent out when they were looking for charitable donations or sending a letter to the Minister's office.

I Heart Internet

SpaceTime wrote: »

Based on the facts though, and the accounts of various people who'd been through those 'homes', I doubt those pictures were very reflective of reality. They look like the PR shots or the photos they sent out when they were looking for charitable donations or sending a letter to the Minister's office.

I don't know. But if they are being held up as indicative of the hellish nature of these institutions then they aren't really.

SpaceTime

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I don't know. But if they are being held up as indicative of the hellish nature of these institutions then they aren't really.

I think we both know they're not being held up as an example of that. They're just the usual PR shots that any of these organisations produce. The whole problem here was that these places put forward an image of being one thing while in reality were something very different.

ryan101

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

As I said above, stop trying to shout down your betters when your peers are, like you, trying to obfuscate or nitpick this outrage away from the spotlight.

And you know well who your betters are, they are those of us whose moral outrage at this or equiavlent crimes is not diminished by the fact that those committing the crimes are the leaders of whatever religious or political faction you believe in.

Shouting and betters ? I thought this was a discussion forum.
Do you think a proper investigation and proper court of law should be held where these people are proven guilty, or would you just prefer to skip all that ?

SpaceTime

jank wrote: »

However sympathetic I am towards the victims of abuse perpetrated by the RCC I think the idea above would be terrible and would just amount to mob rule in the Irish republic. Remember, there is a difference between a democracy and a republic. Ireland is or at least is supposed to be a republic.

Do you have figures to back your claim that most people in Ireland would support this 'referendum'? If this was to transpire you may as well erase all rights of private property of the Irish constituion.

In normal Irish or British law, if you were held (as an organisation) liable for huge compensation payments, your assets would be seized and sold eventually to pay debts. There's nothing 'mob rule' about that.

There's no referendum needed for that at all. The issue to date has been the state jumping into provide compensation schemes rather than just letting the judicial processes take their course and allowing people to sue.

mrsbyrne

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

As I said above, stop trying to shout down your betters when your peers are, like you, trying to obfuscate or nitpick this outrage away from the spotlight.

And you know well who your betters are, they are those of us whose moral outrage at this or equiavlent crimes is not diminished by the fact that those committing the crimes are the leaders of whatever religious or political faction you believe in.

I heart internet ,ryan101 and I have all called for a full a and thorough investigation into the discovery of this apparent mass grave. I don't see obsfucating or nitpicking on this thread or shouting down. Where do you see it?

iguana

Right, I'm going to start off an Avaaz petition today requesting a full Gardaí investigations and for prosecutions to happen if anyone still living is found criminally liable. And for birth and death certs to be issued for these children as they deserve at least that. Is Frances Fitzgerald the person to name to be lobbied?

ryan101

iguana wrote: »

Right, I'm going to start off an Avaaz petition today requesting a full Gardaí investigations and for prosecutions to happen if anyone still living is found criminally liable. And for birth and death certs to be issued for these children as they deserve at least that. Is Frances Fitzgerald the person to name to be lobbied?

I'm happy to sign any such formal petition.
According to some of the press reports, formal complaints have been made to the Gardai, so that should help move the investigation along as well.

Tabnabs

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I heart internet ,ryan101 and I have all called for a full a and thorough investigation into the discovery of this apparent mass grave. I don't see obsfucating or nitpicking on this thread or shouting down. Where do you see it?

Called for a full a and thorough investigation? Where? On boards? Where have you actually called for it and who have you requested to undertake it?

Brian Shanahan

pauldla wrote: »

unlike you, I am not a rationalist

I heart internet, a rationalist? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Being a rationalist means dismissing the irrational whenever you encounter it, and by believing in an irrational* deity, IHI shows that he/she is no such thing.

*Both in the sense that the god is irrational, and it is irrational to hold an unevidenced position to be the truth.

PopePalpatine

iguana wrote: »

Right, I'm going to start off an Avaaz petition today requesting a full Gardaí investigations and for prosecutions to happen if anyone still living is found criminally liable. And for birth and death certs to be issued for these children as they deserve at least that. Is Frances Fitzgerald the person to name to be lobbied?

I'll sign it too.

eviltwin

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'll sign it too.

Ditto, I'll share it around on FB too

I hope our christian friends can find it in themselves to do the same.

Czarcasm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

As I said above, stop trying to shout down your betters when your peers are, like you, trying to obfuscate or nitpick this outrage away from the spotlight.

And you know well who your betters are, they are those of us whose moral outrage at this or equiavlent crimes is not diminished by the fact that those committing the crimes are the leaders of whatever religious or political faction you believe in.

50 years later, how is this attitude any different to the attitude of those that enabled and allowed this tragedy and many more like it to happen?

"You know who your betters are"...

Jesus fcuking Christ, the sheer arrogance of it. You honestly think you're "better" than another human being because you think you're morally superior to them?

Your attitude is no different to the bastards that thought they were morally superior to everyone else 50 years ago.