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Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": HAVE NOT NOT NOT read the books

Sir Chops

I can't wait after last weeks dramatics ! Poor old Reek as well looks like he's not enjoying his holiday !

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K_user

Isn't the tension building?

Love watching Tywin work. He is the ultimate politician. In one swoop he has taken a bad situation and made it his own. Pulling everyone to his side, making alliances, constantly thinking. If only he could recognise the same skills in Tyrion. There is a great deleted scene on the season 3 DVD boxset where he considers how to deal with Manse Rayder. He has to be the most interesting character in the show.

Poor Tyrion. He's in a bad place. Caught between a rock, a hard place and his sister. I'm confident that he'll figure a way out, but I'm curious as to what it will cost him.

Good to see the show reminding us about the "other" side to Jamie. The side that pushed a boy out a window.

And Jon. I know that he is a potential "hero" in the show. A stand up guy. Brave. Loyal. Wise. But he really is a little dull. Things just seem to happen around him. He's never the driving force of a story.

Loved Dannys scene. Shes a real contrasting character to Cersei.

On one hand you have a woman with everything. Power, money, family and yet she has nothing. Mentality abused by her father, insulted by her now deceased son. One daughter taken off her. While she herself, despite being very intelligent, is just seen as a pawn, and married off to which ever alliance suits best. During the battle of blackwater she sat with posion in her hand, no interaction with the fighting force, she just waited for her fate to be decided for her. And now, the ultimate insult, raped at the feet of her dead child.

Then you have Danny, who started off with nothing. Essentially sold by her abusive bother. Technically raped, in the sense that she really didn't want to be there. Now she has an army, and a mission. Thousands of miles away from the home she never knew, yet following the steps of her ancestors. Its fascinating how her battles are always more cerebral than brute force. In that way she has the potential to be another Tywin. You can almost see her approving of the Red wedding.

Two Queens, but only one is demanding that she rules.

Then there is Sansa, who can never catch a break. You have to constantly feel for the girl, she really is just a pawn.

Little finger, doesn't the man redefine slippery? A certain spider did mention in season 3 that Petyr would never be happy until he sat on the Iron throne. While that is an impossibility, he does seem to have a power play in hand.

Can't guess on the "who done it" thing. But season 4 isn't letting us down!

J. Marston

Mickeroo wrote: »

Balon Greyjoy, Theon/Reek's dad.

Is Balon another contender for the Throne? Strange if he is, he gets barely any screen time.

Squeeonline

thefa wrote: »

Davos is telling the girl that he almost got beheaded by a bravosi who didn't appreciate the difference between a smuggler (Davos) and a pirate but that distinction doesn't matter too much when the banks barge is worth half a kingdom. Then a bulb seems to light in his head so I'm guessing he's thinking of trying to seize one of these barges to pay for the golden cloaks or hiring them with the promise of pay by hijacking one of these.

My money is more on getting the Iron Bank to fund the rebellion to recover all the money owed by the Crown.

Bacchus

That was a bit of a slow burner episode after the frantic pace of the opening 2 episodes. It set up a lot though for future episodes and moved things along nicely so it gets no complaints from me.

... actually it gets one. The Sam/Gilly story was boring... sweet (that he wants to protect her) and then slightly disturbing (how is she safer in a brothel??) but ultimately boring.

Great to see that the Night's Watch are heading north again on a mission with purpose.

Loved the Tywin scene with Cersie's non-psychotic son. One of my favourite characters at the moment. The other being the Hound. At first I though he was being a d*ck turning on that nice family like that but he's right, what difference does hanging out with them for a while make when they'll be dead soon anyway. Harsh, but true. In the world they live in, it's kill or be killed.

The Red Witch story seems to be going somewhere now. We know they need an army (that hasn't been clear till now) before they can attack again. Davos has hatched a cunning plan

Tyrion and Pod's last meeting was great too. Poor Pod.... poor Tyrion.

Finally, the Danaery's story got a bit more interesting. I know it's just another slave city but the champion fight was quite entertaining and her speech to the slaves, as their masters realise she is breaking their "power" over them was fantastic. That last shot with the slave picking up the broken collar and the "masters" looking on. Quality.

road dog

And the music is awesome in Danaery's war scenes!

Shiraz 4.99

I can't see why some would be disappointed with that episode, I felt it was up there with the preceding 2.
Stories are moving along nicely.

Big dibs to whoever did the sound effects on the stew, could nearly taste the lumps myself.

JaMarcusHustle

I'm forgetting a few things from last season - can someone explain what happened with the Jon Snow storyline? I remember everything up to when he was with the Wildlings and they were climbing the wall.

Where are they now, did they get over it? And where are the Wildlings now who have teamed up with those cannibals? Are they north or south of the wall? They mentioned something about someone attacking Castleblack from the north and someone attacking from the south - what's all that about?

Last question - at the end of season 2, a load of whitewalkers were marching on the wall, is that right? What's the story with them, why haven't they attacked it yet? Is it because they walk so slow?

norrie rugger

do people really think that Cersie would have been that weak, against Jamie?
Not one scratch, kick, punch or any real attempt to fight.

Jamie has one hand, it's not like he could hold on to her and get his todger out at the same time.
This was Cersie Lannister FFS, she would not just have taken it.

Danny's dragons are young and small yet. She has no logistics to get her army across the sea and defending a city is easier than attacking one. She has a few catapults but no siege engines. I doubt that she could have taken Mareen without a slave revolt.

kryogen

Thats her thing sure, slave revolts, she is showing signs she is not fully able to control her dragons as they get older either, I think that may be important for the future.

K_user

norrie rugger wrote: »

do people really think that Cersie would have been that weak, against Jamie?
Not one scratch, kick, punch or any real attempt to fight.

Jamie has one hand, it's not like he could hold on to her and get his todger out at the same time.
This was Cersie Lannister FFS, she would not just have taken it.

Danny's dragons are young and small yet. She has no logistics to get her army across the sea and defending a city is easier than attacking one. She has a few catapults but no siege engines. I doubt that she could have taken Mareen without a slave revolt.

I agree.

For all we know this sort of "behaviour" typifies how their relationship works. We know that Jamie is a narcissistic individual, who in the past has shown little regard for the well being of others. And Cersie can be as cold and driven as any of her counterparts. So would it shock anyone that their incestuous relationship is damaged and intense?

As for Danny, she is thousands of miles from "home". Its not like she has a Star Trek transporter waiting in the wings.

And shes still new to this. Defeating the free cities is a learning experience for her. If she were to land outside Kings Landing tomorrow, she'd be crushed instantly.

The Lords and generals of Westeros have been warring all their lives. A dragon army arriving at their shore would be the perfect way to bring the factions together. The experience, the infrastructure, the armies, it would all overwhelm Danny before her first speech was over.

She has her entire life to build up strength. At her current rate she could be extremely wealthy and supremely powerful in five years time. Then she could take the Iron throne as she pleased. Rushing only serves the plot line, not the logic of it.

What we are seeing is a massive character development. Going from timid girl, to warlord within a short time. In terms of the series, only Arya has gone through a similar dramatic change. From happy go lucky girl, to a sellsword in training.

K_user

kryogen wrote: »

Thats her thing sure, slave revolts, she is showing signs she is not fully able to control her dragons as they get older either, I think that may be important for the future.

My thinking too.

Shes not in full control of anything yet. She's learning as she goes. Imagine what someone like Tywin would do with do with her army and dragons? She just isn't at that level yet. And she doesn't have a "home". Her migrating lifestyle is a major disadvantage. The logistics alone are mind boggling.

Mickeroo

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

I'm forgetting a few things from last season - can someone explain what happened with the Jon Snow storyline? I remember everything up to when he was with the Wildlings and they were climbing the wall.

Where are they now, did they get over it? And where are the Wildlings now who have teamed up with those cannibals? Are they north or south of the wall? They mentioned something about someone attacking Castleblack from the north and someone attacking from the south - what's all that about?

Last question - at the end of season 2, a load of whitewalkers were marching on the wall, is that right? What's the story with them, why haven't they attacked it yet? Is it because they walk so slow?

Jon did a runner on them, it happened outside a windmill where Bran was hiding I think?

The cannibals and Ygritte/Tormunds gang are south of the wall.

The white walkers and wights we saw at the end of season 2 were many miles north of the wall. If you remember, the Night's Watch spent most of that season heading north so were nowhere near the wall.

McGrath5

Very good episode all round, I think it benefited well from the pace of the story dropping after the opening 2 episodes.

I thought the episode ended mid scene with the slave looking at the broken shackles.

bren2001

kryogen wrote: »

Thats her thing sure, slave revolts, she is showing signs she is not fully able to control her dragons as they get older either, I think that may be important for the future.

She has no idea how to control her dragons. Is Maester Aemon the only person left who would know how to train and control dragons? It would make sense for their paths to cross.

fluke

norrie rugger wrote: »

do people really think that Cersie would have been that weak, against Jamie?
Not one scratch, kick, punch or any real attempt to fight.

Jamie has one hand, it's not like he could hold on to her and get his todger out at the same time.
This was Cersie Lannister FFS, she would not just have taken it.

I guess you could say Jamie...dropped the hand.

Mickeroo

fluke wrote: »

I guess you could say Jamie...dropped the hand.

DeVore

I liked this episode and I thought the pace was fine and to be expected. Not every episode can be a total block buster shocker, the place would seem like something out of the Avengers super hero world if it did.

That said, I could totally live without Fat-boy-dim and his missus. He was endearing at first but now he seems just as thick as his wife and I could care less about them really. I can only imagine the kid or they have some part to play later because otherwise this is a story line that has little to offer.

In contrast, I quite like the Danerys thread. I'm invested in this character who seems to take control and drive things somewhere. I'm happy to spend some time watching her story. (could have more dragons tho

)

Everything with Tyrion and Tywin is gold. Littlefinger seems to have moved to north Dublin. Not sure why they spent so long developing Jamie's good side only for him to rape his sister... maybe to mark the contrast... seems like they never had a problem with bad people being bad before. Anyway, good episode, bit fillerish but that's to be expected.

Bacchus

Saw an interview about that "rape" scene. Seems it wasn't supposed to be shot as a rape. It was supposed to show the struggle between them in their personal relationship or something and that they both wanted it.

Quote from the director...

Well, it becomes consensual by the end, because anything for them ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle. Nobody really wanted to talk about what was going on between the two characters, so we had a rehearsal that was a blocking rehearsal. …Nikolaj (Coster-Waldau, who plays Jaime) came in and we just went through one physical progression and digression of what they went through, but also how to do it with only one hand, because it was Nikolaj. By the time you do that and you walk through it, the actors feel comfortable going home to think about it. The only other thing I did was that ordinarily, you rehearse the night before, and I wanted to rehearse that scene four days before, so that we could think about everything. And it worked out really well. That’s one of my favorite scenes I’ve ever done.

In a way, I can see how they were trying that, Cersei was saying "not here" and half resisting but not really doing anything about it..... like it was guilt or rage stopping her, not the lack of interest. Problem is, whatever way you paint it "no" means "no". It all came off very rapey when that wasn't what they were going for apparently. It's certainly done some damage to Jamie's reputation.

Da Shins Kelly

It was very rapey, regardless of how the director is trying to pass it off now. Certainly did not seem that it was consensual. George R.R Martin weighed in on it saying that it's the "butterfly effect" - deviations from the novel lead to further deviations down the line. In the book, the sex is consensual, in the show it isn't because of the differing circumstances surrounding Jamie's return to King's Landing (apparently in the books, he only arrives back after Joffrey has already died), and therefore the characters are in a different place mentally in the show than they are in the book. He also said he never discussed this scene with the director either, and that he regretted if it was disturbing to people for the wrong reasons.

http://time.com/71584/george-r-r-martin-game-of-thrones-controversy-rape/

Dan_Solo

And please, no, this isn't apologising for it or anything but...
Haven't we had enough children crucified and families eaten so far in this series for this Cersei/Jaime incident to be a little bit.. so what?

Sleepy

Honestly, I'd wonder if some of the direction is deliberately trying to annoy the rabid elements of feminism... but it simply seems as if they let the "this is a world in which women are powerless" thing get a bit too far out of hand in both this scene and Danaery's first experiences with Khal Drogo. They seem to veer towards "rapey" when going for "dominant". In the Danaerys scene it at least made a little sense: women in this world being property given to their husbands to do as they see fit with, here it just misses the mark badly.

RED L4 0TH

'Quieter' episode was the initial reaction. How do you follow the 'Red Wedding' and then so soon after, poor old Joffrey's digestion problems though? Any scenes with Charles Dance in them are excellent. Such a presence on screen.

designbydan

Sleepy wrote: »

Honestly, I'd wonder if some of the direction is deliberately trying to annoy the rabid elements of feminism... but it simply seems as if they let the "this is a world in which women are powerless" thing get a bit too far out of hand in both this scene and Danaery's first experiences with Khal Drogo. They seem to veer towards "rapey" when going for "dominant". In the Danaerys scene it at least made a little sense: women in this world being property given to their husbands to do as they see fit with, here it just misses the mark badly.

Lets say it was (for the sake of argument) a full blown rape scene. Big deal. It's game of thrones, nobodies complaining that a mother was cut up into pieces in front of her child in preparation to be eaten.

Grimebox

designbydan wrote: »

Lets say it was (for the sake of argument) a full blown rape scene. Big deal. It's game of thrones, nobodies complaining that a mother was cut up into pieces in front of her child in preparation to be eaten.

When did that happen?

iamanengine

Grimebox wrote: »

When did that happen?

When the cannibal wildling chap told the kid to run to castle black after attacking that wee village.

Mickeroo

Grimebox wrote: »

When did that happen?

Wasn't shown, the cannibal guy said to the kid he was going to do it.

Isn't most of the uproar because it made Jaimie look bad and seemed inconsistent after his character arch last season rather than the actual rape itself anyway?

norrie rugger

Wildlings slaughtering the villagers and telling the kid what the thens were going to to

Sleepy

I'd agree if it was supposed to be a rape scene but it's clear from the comments coming out from the production team that it wasn't supposed to be one.

I'm fine with depictions of rape. It's a reality in both the civilised and less-enlightened parts of our modern world and would have been fairly rampant in the feudal history on which this series is largely based. What's irritating me is that a badly filmed scene is causing one of the most complex characters in the series to be looked at through the lens of a modern world where feminism's arguments that "no always means no" have been accepted as fact when in the real world of human relationships things aren't always black and white: sometimes "no" can mean "persuade me" or the "no, not here... oh **** it, I don't care any more" that was supposed to be being depicted in this scene.

Dan_Solo

norrie rugger wrote: »

Wildlings slaughtering the villagers and telling the kid what the thens were going to to

The first time they turn up they throw some human body parts on a fire to cook them.
Wasn't Joffrey and the prostitutes earlier in the series far worse than this too?

Da Shins Kelly

Mickeroo wrote: »

Isn't most of the uproar because it made Jaimie look bad and seemed inconsistent after his character arch last season rather than the actual rape itself anyway?

That was my understanding of it. I don't think people would care so much if there hadn't been such an effort to make Jaimie seem like a guy with at least some redeemable, noble characteristics in the last season. He saves Brienne from being raped in a previous episode, and then comes back and rapes his sister? It just seems to veer a little from where they were taking that character.