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National Angling Development Plan

jkchambers

It appears that a sub committee of Inland Fisheries Ireland has started preparing a National Angling Development Plan. By coincidence all the National Angling Federations are also hoping to be able to prepare a National Angling Development Plan. The IFI Sub Committee want to meet a delegation from IFPAC next Thursday to ask us how we see pike angling being developed. I would think that we could tell them in one sentence - Leave our pike alone and stop gill netting them. They will be meeting other federations in due course.
We will prepare a submission. Earlier this week there was a meeting of the National Inland Fisheries Forum and they also discussed development. They were discussing development under the following headings which we will also use.
Developing Domestic and Tourism Angling
Role of Angling Federations
Angling Competitions
Angling Providers- Guides, Ghillies, providers of all types
Promotion of the Irish Angling Product
Youth Angling
If anyone has any reasonable ideas please email them to me at ifpacsnaps@gmail.com
After we meet them we may post our submission

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R.Dunne

Throw the book at them John!
Have them acknowledge that pike are native and protected as stated on their own website.
Request they lift all killer nets from wild Irish lakes and loughs and vehemently stress that this includes the pike culled western loughs Corrib, conn, mask, cullin etc.
Request an immediate ban on pike killing comps held by trout clubs on these waters. Demand the maximum possible notice of any further netting surveys and related meetings.

Stress to them that times have changed! That the pike angling fraternity has grown rapidly in recent years and at least matches the game angling fraternity in number and deserves an equal say.

For a start

jkchambers

R.Dunne wrote: »

Throw the book at them John!
Have them acknowledge that pike are native and protected as stated on their own website.
Request they lift all killer nets from wild Irish lakes and loughs and vehemently stress that this includes the pike culled western loughs Corrib, conn, mask, cullin etc.
Request an immediate ban on pike killing comps held by trout clubs on these waters. Demand the maximum possible notice of any further netting surveys and related meetings.

Stress to them that times have changed! That the pike angling fraternity has grown rapidly in recent years and at least matches the game angling fraternity in number and deserves an equal say.

For a start

Well, the recent TDI have it at 67,000 trout anglers and 62,000 pike anglers. When it comes to average annual expenditure by domestic anglers they find pike anglers spend 2,427 and trout anglers 1,655. This would mean that overall pike anglers spend 150,474,000 per year while trout anglers spend 110,885,000. Crude enough calculations but they are based on the latest information available.I would imaging that this would be a complete turnaround on what the position would have been say 10 or 15 years ago

R.Dunne

John does this represent national expenditure only, or does it include revenue from tourism?

jkchambers

R.Dunne wrote: »

John does this represent national expenditure only, or does it include revenue from tourism?

Republic only
http://www.fisheriesireland.ie/media/tdistudyonrecreationalangling.pdf

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Just form my experience on the ground, there seems to be many more tourists visiting Ireland for pike, coarse and sea fishing than for trout or salmon. I'd imagine revenues from these are many times those for trout/salmon and this all counts as exports in our balance of trade. No evidence but as I said just from being on the ground involved in all types of angling for over 55 years.

Zzippy

jkchambers wrote: »

Well, the recent TDI have it at 67,000 trout anglers and 62,000 pike anglers. When it comes to average annual expenditure by domestic anglers they find pike anglers spend 2,427 and trout anglers 1,655. This would mean that overall pike anglers spend 150,474,000 per year while trout anglers spend 110,885,000. Crude enough calculations but they are based on the latest information available.I would imaging that this would be a complete turnaround on what the position would have been say 10 or 15 years ago

Those are national figures. In the west, trout angling would far outweigh pike in importance and economic contribution. Pike anglers would do well to remember this, and also remember the big urban-rural divide in Ireland - rural people resent people from Dublin telling them they know better. Trying to impose a certain viewpoint only deepens any divide between trout and pike anglers and leads to further entrenchment of views on both sides.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I don't get this insistence on an urban rural split, or a Dublin versus the rest, attitude. I'm rural and not from Dublin so please don't assume a partular opinion is restricted to a particular geographic demographic.

R.Dunne

That's only while nets are down, the western lakes are potentially the finest pike fisheries in the whole world!, tourism would flood there during the winter on foot of the nets being lifted. Why mention Dublin? It's only one of 32 counties that has pike anglers. Trout might be more important in the west, but pike are at least as important if not more so in the rest of the country and that has been ignored until now.
It's not like we are pushing for a trout cull, we just want the pike culling to stop.
In which case pike and trout anglers both benefit.
Lift the nets! Stop culling!
Everybody wins!

Zzippy

Kyson Loose Zeppelin wrote: »

I don't get this insistence on an urban rural split, or a Dublin versus the rest, attitude. I'm rural and not from Dublin so please don't assume a partular opinion is restricted to a particular geographic demographic.

I didn't ascribe that to you, it is my observation from living in rural Ireland over the last 18 years or so, having lived in Dublin for many years before that. It is apparent in many facets of life, social, sporting, interaction with government, cultural, economic. People do not like being told what to do by outsiders, and in rural Ireland, as often as not, that is Dublin.

Zzippy

R.Dunne wrote: »

That's only while nets are down, the western lakes are potentially the finest pike fisheries in the whole world!, tourism would flood there during the winter on foot of the nets being lifted. Why mention Dublin? It's only one of 32 counties that has pike anglers. Trout might be more important in the west, but pike are at least as important if not more so in the rest of the country and that has been ignored until now.
It's not like we are pushing for a trout cull, we just want the pike culling to stop.
In which case pike and trout anglers both benefit.
Lift the nets! Stop culling!
Everybody wins!

I happen to agree with you on culling. Just pointing out the general view in this area. I hear it all the time. But I disagree on surveys, gillnets are a tool for surveying fish stocks, that is all, surveys kill a tiny number of fish from the overall population and are not culls.

jkchambers

Zzippy wrote: »

Those are national figures. In the west, trout angling would far outweigh pike in importance and economic contribution. Pike anglers would do well to remember this, and also remember the big urban-rural divide in Ireland - rural people resent people from Dublin telling them they know better. Trying to impose a certain viewpoint only deepens any divide between trout and pike anglers and leads to further entrenchment of views on both sides.

Last year IFPAC had 71 paid up affiliated clubs. Of these only 3 were Dublin based so our affiliated clubs are all over the country though I will admit that we are thin on the ground in the West.In the mid 90s when a huge amount of gill netting was done under the TAM programme consultants TDI did research on anglers fishing Corrib. As far as I remember 20% of anglers were pikers and pike anglers spent a good bit more than trout anglers. If gill netting stopped I am sure that the numbers of pike anglers visiting the Western lakes would at least double.

Fisherman

jkchambers wrote: »

Last year IFPAC had 71 paid up affiliated clubs. Of these only 3 were Dublin based so our affiliated clubs are all over the country though I will admit that we are thin on the ground in the West.In the mid 90s when a huge amount of gill netting was done under the TAM programme consultants TDI did research on anglers fishing Corrib. As far as I remember 20% of anglers were pikers and pike anglers spent a good bit more than trout anglers. If gill netting stopped I am sure that the numbers of pike anglers visiting the Western lakes would at least double.

From my experience, after talking to quite a few British pikers, the numbers of British pikers would explode and they spend shedloads more cash in the area than we Irish pikers would.

R.Dunne

Fisherman wrote: »

From my experience, after talking to quite a few British pikers, the numbers of British pikers would explode and they spend shedloads more cash in the area than we Irish pikers would.

Not to mention dutch, italians, germans, danes, fins.... they are all boycotting!!, these guys save up small fortunes for their annual trips! I mean rediculous sums of money, particularly the dutch and germans(pike friendly germans:rolleyes:), and love nothing more than splashing it on their angling adventures, sometimes twice or more per year!....

Fisherman

R.Dunne wrote: »

Not to mention dutch, italians, germans, danes, fins.... they are all boycotting!!, these guys save up small fortunes for their annual trips! I mean rediculous sums of money, particularly the dutch and germans(pike friendly germans:rolleyes:), and love nothing more than splashing it on their angling adventures, sometimes twice or more per year!....

Too true, R.Dunne, although, personally, I have only been speaking to the English, Scottish and Welsh guys on the forums and I don't have first hand info from our European friends, but you are correct.

Flysfisher

Zzippy wrote: »

Those are national figures. In the west, trout angling would far outweigh pike in importance and economic contribution. Pike anglers would do well to remember this, and also remember the big urban-rural divide in Ireland - rural people resent people from Dublin telling them they know better. Trying to impose a certain viewpoint only deepens any divide between trout and pike anglers and leads to further entrenchment of views on both sides.

Very silly comment. What big urban rural divide? What big nasty people from Dublin telling the lads in the west what to do? Who are these people? What are their names? Enda Kenny and Michael Ring is it?

Zzippy

Flysfisher wrote: »

Very silly comment. What big urban rural divide? What big nasty people from Dublin telling the lads in the west what to do? Who are these people? What are their names? Enda Kenny and Michael Ring is it?

There are none so blind as refuse to see. If you refuse to accept the idea that some people think differently to you that's your problem, I'm not going to waste my time trying to persuade you.

Flysfisher

jkchambers wrote: »

Last year IFPAC had 71 paid up affiliated clubs. Of these only 3 were Dublin based so our affiliated clubs are all over the country though I will admit that we are thin on the ground in the West.In the mid 90s when a huge amount of gill netting was done under the TAM programme consultants TDI did research on anglers fishing Corrib. As far as I remember 20% of anglers were pikers and pike anglers spent a good bit more than trout anglers. If gill netting stopped I am sure that the numbers of pike anglers visiting the Western lakes would at least double.

What?

Do Pike anglers want EVERY lake in the country? We only have a handfull of good trout lakes left do you want them all developed as pike fisheries.
Christ of almighty is there not enough pike fisheries in Ireland already. The list of pike fisheries is endless as it is.

Flysfisher

Zzippy wrote: »

There are none so blind as refuse to see. If you refuse to accept the idea that some people think differently to you that's your problem, I'm not going to waste my time trying to persuade you.

No not at all I do not refuse to accept people see things differently.

I would just love to know who these people are and what are their backgrounds?
I suspect many of them have rural backgrounds.

Its got nothing to do with where people come from or live. If people think it does then its those who have the real problem.

jkchambers

Flysfisher wrote: »

What?

Do Pike anglers want EVERY lake in the country? We only have a handfull of good trout lakes left do you want them all developed as pike fisheries.
Christ of almighty is there not enough pike fisheries in Ireland already. The list of pike fisheries is endless as it is.

We have no problem with Western Lakes being developed as wild brown trout fisheries. However we want to be able to fish for all species present without them being removed. They are public waters.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

What is wrong with allowing fisheries be natural? You can have pike and trout, roach and perch etc without being mutually exclusive. A lake is all the richer for having the full range of species nature intends for it. Coarse fishing venues are still top quality with the pike populations left without interference and trout lakes can be the same.

Flysfisher

jkchambers wrote: »

We have no problem with Western Lakes being developed as wild brown trout fisheries. However we want to be able to fish for all species present without them being removed. They are public waters.

Yes they are public waters. But the amount of wild trout lakes are very few in comparison to pike fisheries. It's not like there are not alternatives to the western trout lakes.
Look at all the lakes in Cavan over 360 I believe most if not all contain pike yet Cavan only has a few trout lakes. That's just one county. Leitrim is similar, Monaghan has plenty too not to mention rivers Shannon, barrow inny and suck. Don't forget the canals.

The problem is there are too many pike fisheries already and having the 'game fishing' lakes as primarily pike fisheries would not attract more pike anglers to Ireland, there is more than enough capacity.

Pike anglers should look after all their own fisheries and stop whinging about the removal of pike from trout and salmon lakes.

Flysfisher

Kyson Loose Zeppelin wrote: »

What is wrong with allowing fisheries be natural? You can have pike and trout, roach and perch etc without being mutually exclusive. A lake is all the richer for having the full range of species nature intends for it. Coarse fishing venues are still top quality with the pike populations left without interference and trout lakes can be the same.

Some species have been introduced not by nature but by man, that's what's wrong.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Flysfisher wrote: »

Some species have been introduced not by nature but by man, that's what's wrong.

I never said to leave non native species! Pike and trout are both native so let them be in any lakes that hold both.

jkchambers

Flysfisher wrote: »

Yes they are public waters. But the amount of wild trout lakes are very few in comparison to pike fisheries. It's not like there are not alternatives to the western trout lakes.
Look at all the lakes in Cavan over 360 I believe most if not all contain pike yet Cavan only has a few trout lakes. That's just one county. Leitrim is similar, Monaghan has plenty too not to mention rivers Shannon, barrow inny and suck. Don't forget the canals.

The problem is there are too many pike fisheries already and having the 'game fishing' lakes as primarily pike fisheries would not attract more pike anglers to Ireland, there is more than enough capacity.

Pike anglers should look after all their own fisheries and stop whinging about the removal of pike from trout and salmon lakes.

All Lakes should be marketed and fished for the species they hold. I have no problem with the lakes that hold wild brown trout having money spent on them on projects such as stream enhancement. That said should wild brown trout anglers be more conservation minded. A Corrib bag limit of 4 trout over 13 ins is too much in a lake where trout numbers have declined in recent years. Perhaps anglers should be keeping trout under 13 ins and returning trout over that size as they are the ones that will be spawning ? Just a thought

R.Dunne

Flysfisher wrote: »

Yes they are public waters. But the amount of wild trout lakes are very few in comparison to pike fisheries. It's not like there are not alternatives to the western trout lakes.
Look at all the lakes in Cavan over 360 I believe most if not all contain pike yet Cavan only has a few trout lakes. That's just one county. Leitrim is similar, Monaghan has plenty too not to mention rivers Shannon, barrow inny and suck. Don't forget the canals.

The problem is there are too many pike fisheries already and having the 'game fishing' lakes as primarily pike fisheries would not attract more pike anglers to Ireland, there is more than enough capacity.

Pike anglers should look after all their own fisheries and stop whinging about the removal of pike from trout and salmon lakes.

Flyfisher it's already evident that removing and culling pike from the western lakes has had a NEGATIVE impact on trout stocks. Have a read through the wfd survey results

R.Dunne

Sorry the rest of that post should have read

on mask and cullin in 2012 and Corrib in 2011. So why not leave them alone for a few years and see what happens?

Zzippy

Kyson Loose Zeppelin wrote: »

I never said to leave non native species! Pike and trout are both native so let them be in any lakes that hold both.

Devil's advocate: Pike are native to Ireland, but not to every lake in Ireland. If someone introduces pike to a lake, would you rather see them left there, cos they're "native", or removed?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Zzippy wrote: »

Devil's advocate: Pike are native to Ireland, but not to every lake in Ireland. If someone introduces pike to a lake, would you rather see them left there, cos they're "native", or removed?

As they are native (without quotes

) I personally would be duty bound to leave them.

Zzippy

Kyson Loose Zeppelin wrote: »

As they are native (without quotes ) I personally would be duty bound to leave them.

OK. So that gives free rein to unscrupulous "anglers" (and I very definitely mean the quotes) to introduce pike anywhere they see fit, no matter that pike have never been native in that lake? And feck the consequences, once they're in they're native?

R.Dunne

Zzippy wrote: »

OK. So that gives free rein to unscrupulous "anglers" (and I very definitely mean the quotes) to introduce pike anywhere they see fit, no matter that pike have never been native in that lake? And feck the consequences, once they're in they're native?

Are you attempting to claim that pike could be native to Ireland, yet not find their way naturally into a lough of over 44'000 acres???