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Buying bitcoins

brendan86

Heh guys,

I've been doing a bit of research the last week into buying bitcoins.. I want to buy 1k worth, I know it's risky but I have it to spare and might just see how it goes for a year or so..

I have currently registered on mtgox.com and am awaiting approval on my Id verification.. Has anyone dealt with this site have any info for me?

If I put my money on mtgox that means I have to trust them with my bitcoins is this correct? I won't have to have a wallet on my computer?

I'm just basically asking for advice, it's what I want to do but if someone can explain the best way about it that knows more than me I would appreciate it

Thanks

Brendan

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jamo2oo9

TheMilkyPirate wrote: »

Silk road was shut down lately, An illegal website on the deep web selling drugs, There's a lot more sites like this that deal only in bitcoin so that could be a factor in the value drop.

That already made an effect on the value before. This price couldn't have caused this so late after the shut down. What about the FBI offloading their seized BTC they took from Silk Road?

Cheers pH, I knew there was something wrong about an exchange. Had been looking at the BTC price on mt.gox so that had an effect on its actually price.

[Deleted User]

Isn't MtGox one of the biggest exchanges though? Were it to collapse, wouldn't that be quite a huge blow to bitcoin as a whole?

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Isn't MtGox one of the biggest exchanges though? Were it to collapse, wouldn't that be quite a huge blow to bitcoin as a whole?

Yea it was down to about 20% of the bitcoin market when the problem started, so its problems was a big a blow as you really could have - price has fallen but it's not a crash.

TheMilkyPirate wrote:

If I want to buy a very small amount lets say 0.2 of a bitcoin where can I buy this??

If you can get cash to me (somewhere around €110) i could send you 200 mBTC. - PM me

milltown

There's still a bit of volume being traded on MtGox I see. Am I missing something here, or is this an opportunity for a patient/brave soul to stock up on half price Bitcoin?

Also, maybe somebody with a deeper understanding of how Btc works could explain to me how this "transaction malleability" affects the intrinsic value of Bitcoin, being that there's supposed to be a finite amount up to a 21 million (?) maximum? Does the malleability exploit mean that coins are magicked out of thin air? My (limited) understanding is that a transfer is initiated but the hash is corrupted en route to the block chain so that the sending wallet never gets confirmation of the transfer, so keeps its coin. Meanwhile the rest of the system confirms the transfer to the receiving wallet, which receives the coin.

Does one coin now exist in two wallets? When is or can this be discovered? Only if both versions of the one coin appear in the block chain at the same time? Or does the Btc system have some sort of inbuilt auditing system? Though this seems unlikely, as coins can be stored offline.

sawdoubters

you cant trust the wallets any more or the people storing the wallets Mt. Gox has suspension of bitcoin withdrawals.

milltown wrote: »

There's still a bit of volume being traded on MtGox I see. Am I missing something here, or is this an opportunity for a patient/brave soul to stock up on half price Bitcoin?

Also, maybe somebody with a deeper understanding of how Btc works could explain to me how this "transaction malleability" affects the intrinsic value of Bitcoin, being that there's supposed to be a finite amount up to a 21 million (?) maximum? Does the malleability exploit mean that coins are magicked out of thin air? My (limited) understanding is that a transfer is initiated but the hash is corrupted en route to the block chain so that the sending wallet never gets confirmation of the transfer, so keeps its coin. Meanwhile the rest of the system confirms the transfer to the receiving wallet, which receives the coin.

Does one coin now exist in two wallets? When is or can this be discovered? Only if both versions of the one coin appear in the block chain at the same time? Or does the Btc system have some sort of inbuilt auditing system? Though this seems unlikely, as coins can be stored offline.

sawdoubters

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article44455.html

alb

milltown wrote: »

There's still a bit of volume being traded on MtGox I see. Am I missing something here, or is this an opportunity for a patient/brave soul to stock up on half price Bitcoin?

Gox has been a terrible exchange for a long time now, there's been problems withdrawing dollars to the US for about a year, and right now you cannot withdraw bitcoins either. So they are letting you buys bitcoins but refusing to let you have them. Who knows when or if they'll re-enable it, maybe they are insolvent? This is why a coin on gox is cheaper than other exchanges.

milltown wrote: »

Also, maybe somebody with a deeper understanding of how Btc works could explain to me how this "transaction malleability" affects the intrinsic value of Bitcoin, being that there's supposed to be a finite amount up to a 21 million (?) maximum? Does the malleability exploit mean that coins are magicked out of thin air? My (limited) understanding is that a transfer is initiated but the hash is corrupted en route to the block chain so that the sending wallet never gets confirmation of the transfer, so keeps its coin. Meanwhile the rest of the system confirms the transfer to the receiving wallet, which receives the coin.

The bug does not affect the hard limit of 21 million, and it does not allow double spends. When you create a bitcoin transaction and submit it to the network, you specify the sending and receiving address of the coins, and proof that you have the private key of the sending address. There is also a form of 'ID number' in the transaction. The bug is that this ID number may change before the transaction is finalized in the system.

The consequence of this is that if you then check the public ledger for that ID in order to check whether your transaction succeeded or not, you make think it failed if you can't find the ID, but instead it actually succeeded with a different ID. Therefore you should check the balance of the sending address for example as a more reliable way. Some exchanges were relying on this ID for checking that a transaction succeeded.

So if someone changed the ID on a withdrawal and then contacted exchange support saying they never got their coins they could possibly convince the exchange to send another transaction. Lets be clear, this would not be the same coins being spent twice, it would be the exchange issuing a new second transaction - human error.

milltown wrote: »

Does one coin now exist in two wallets? When is or can this be discovered? Only if both versions of the one coin appear in the block chain at the same time? Or does the Btc system have some sort of inbuilt auditing system? Though this seems unlikely, as coins can be stored offline.

Absolutely not. Bitcoin would be fundamentally broken in this case, this bug has not allowed double-spends. Bitcoin mining is the audit system that keeps the Bitcoin ledger valid. Coins can be stored offline by keeping the private key for an address offline, but the record of what coins belong to all addresses is public and known by every node in the system. i.e. transactions have to be online.

It's useful to know that coins themselves don't exist as such in Bitcoin

it's just a ledger of transactions, and balances are computed from these. For example, you might have transactions like:

Bob mined 5 bitcoins
Bob sent those 5 to Alice and got 3 back in change

Therefore we know Bob's address has 3 bitcoins and Alice's has 2 bitcoins without tracking any actual coins, just transactions.

milltown

alb wrote: »

So if someone changed the ID on a withdrawal and then contacted exchange support saying they never got their coins they could possibly convince the exchange to send another transaction. Lets be clear, this would not be the same coins being spent twice, it would be the exchange issuing a new second transaction - human error.

I'm not convinced that it needs to be as labour intensive as that. One of the dark web markets recently had all the coin it held in escrow and in users' wallets hoovered out by what appears to be a 3 people. If the public story is to be believed, this happened over a weekend, amounted to millions of dollars worth, and never raised any alarms until the wallets were empty. Straight P2P transactions AFAIK so no exchange or customer service involved.

Thanks for the other info!

alb

milltown wrote: »

I'm not convinced that it needs to be as labour intensive as that. One of the dark web markets recently had all the coin it held in escrow and in users' wallets hoovered out by what appears to be a 3 people. If the public story is to be believed, this happened over a weekend, amounted to millions of dollars worth, and never raised any alarms until the wallets were empty. Straight P2P transactions AFAIK so no exchange or customer service involved.

Thanks for the other info!

You mean the public story that came from the people who had control of the money? People gave their money to strangers on the internet on a shady drug dealing market and the strangers probably just kept it and blamed it on the transaction malleability issue because most of the 'customers' probably don't understand Bitcoin, and what are they going to do anyway, go to the police?

The hilarious part is that advanced Bitcoin usage allows escrow style transactions using Bitcoin itself where the escrow party can only confirm or reject the transaction and not access the funds themselves. The existing wallet software doesn't yet make this easy though.

alb wrote: »

You mean the public story that came from the people who had control of the money? People gave their money to strangers on the internet on a shady drug dealing market and the strangers probably just kept it and blamed it on the transaction malleability issue because most of the 'customers' probably don't understand Bitcoin, and what are they going to do anyway, go to the police?

But to be fair, who would have thought that the completely anonymous owners of a drug dealing site weren't trustworthy.

zpehtsfd

pH wrote: »

And yet credible people think that even at today's $800 value it represents an incredible investment opportunity.
http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2014/01/chrisdixon/

And these same "credible people" have a vested interest in seeing it prosper.

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2013/12/12/andreessen-boosts-bitcoins-legitimacy/

It's called talking your book. :rolleyes:

zpehtsfd wrote: »

And these same "credible people" have a vested interest in seeing it prosper.

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2013/12/12/andreessen-boosts-bitcoins-legitimacy/

It's called talking your book. :rolleyes:

No it's called investing in things you believe are going to succeed.

yes I get it, many many people have been blind to the 'net, and never saw things like google/twitter/facebook as anything but novelties until they became huge, if bitcoin succeeds then its success dwarfs the lot of them put together. If it succeeds it's on par with Tim berner Lee's www .. it really is that big, it does to spending money online what the browser and html did for the web. Except it wasn't really possible to buy shares in "the internet" - but bitcoin does allow anyone who believes this crypto currency will succeed to join in (financially)

Even if it doesn't go huge - i think there's little downside to owning bitcoins at the current €500 price, it will remain a niche way of spending money/donating and there's very little chance it will be worth much less. So in my mind the downside isn't huge, but the upside could be incredible.

I bought 10 bitcoins @ €45 each lost a bit speculating and am going to buy back up to 10 - if those bitcoins are worth a million one day I'll be sure to post here!

Roonbox

pH wrote: »

Even if it doesn't go huge - i think there's little downside to owning bitcoins at the current €500 price, it will remain a niche way of spending money/donating and there's very little chance it will be worth much less. So in my mind the downside isn't huge, but the upside could be incredible.

the downside risk is to Zero, the upside risk is to infinity.

nxbyveromdwjpg

sawdoubters wrote: »

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article44455.html

Complete and utter rubbish

zpehtsfd

pH wrote: »

it does to spending money online what the browser and html did for the web. Except it wasn't really possible to buy shares in "the internet" - but bitcoin does allow anyone who believes this crypto currency will succeed to join in (financially)

What a ridiculous analogy. The Web Browser was revolutionary whilst we've had median of exchanges for years. A simpleton could use a Web Browser but you need to be tech/security savvy to use Bitcoin. Oh and i first bought shares in the "internet" by investing in a company called Global Crossing, who were eventually bought out by Level 3.

"Even if it doesn't go huge - i think there's little downside to owning bitcoins at the current €500 price, it will remain a niche way of spending money/donating and there's very little chance it will be worth much less."

It's price is determined by supply and demand so i'm bewildered how you can put a cap on it's fall to a little below €500. Like all speculative investment with no intrinic value* it's downside is €0.

*Please don't post those nonsense articles explaining why Bitcoin has intrinsic value unto itself.

zpehtsfd wrote: »

What a ridiculous analogy. The Web Browser was revolutionary whilst we've had median of exchanges for years. A simpleton could use a Web Browser but you need to be tech/security savvy to use Bitcoin.

Well if this is what you think then you haven't understood bitcoin.

"Even if it doesn't go huge - i think there's little downside to owning bitcoins at the current €500 price, it will remain a niche way of spending money/donating and there's very little chance it will be worth much less."

It's price is determined by supply and demand so i'm bewildered how you can put a cap on it's fall to a little below €500. Like all speculative investment with no intrinic value* it's downside is €0.

*Please don't post those nonsense articles explaining why Bitcoin has intrinsic value unto itself.

No need to get your panties all bunched - I'll hang on to my 10 BTC, you obviously won't buy any - the future will reveal which of us was correct.

alb

zpehtsfd wrote: »

What a ridiculous analogy. The Web Browser was revolutionary whilst we've had median of exchanges for years. A simpleton could use a Web Browser but you need to be tech/security savvy to use Bitcoin.

The web existed before the graphical web browser and it was much less user friendly than Bitcoin is today. Making Bitcoin easy for a simpleton to use will be easy compared to what it took to invent it and get to the current level of adoption, whether it's via a hardware wallet like the trezor or insured deposits on web wallets or some other way. I don't see this is a matter of 'if' just 'when'.

zpehtsfd wrote: »

Oh and i first bought shares in the "internet" by investing in a company called Global Crossing, who were eventually bought out by Level 3.

I consider that analogous to buying shares in Bitcoin companies, not buying bitcoins themselves, which adds a whole other level of risk.

As for it going to zero, I agree, but I only see it happening if Bitcoin's core technology fails catastrophically to a degree that the ledger can no longer be trusted.

Roonbox

Maxcoin all the way

Worztron

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/first-bitcoin-atms-to-open-this-month-in-america-1.1695862

TheStook

What websites other than MtGox offer an easy way to get Bitcoins?

jamo2oo9

Is it possible to buy BTC off MtGox and sell it on another market like BTC-E?

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

Is it possible to buy BTC off MtGox and sell it on another market like BTC-E?

No at present it's not possible to withdraw a bitcoin from MtGox.

If you believe that MtGox are solvent and that in a few days all bitcoins held there will be available for withdrawal then it represents good value for money.

At the moment there is a site for trading stuck MtGox coins for real coins - it works, it's not a scam I've used it myself to get my last coins out of gox.

https://www.bitcoinbuilder.com

Currently a MtGox coin is worth about 1/2 a real coin, meaning that the market seems to be about 50-50 as to whether Gox is bust or not.

MtGox have released some statements that seem to indicate they're getting closer to allowing withdrawals again, then again some folk are very skeptical about these statements.

Unless you have some insider info, I personally wouldn't buy anything on Gox until they are actually letting you have the bitcoins you own again.

TheStook

Has anyone used Eircoin here?

TheStook wrote: »

Has anyone used Eircoin here?

They're "irish" sure, but at 5% commission, sell only and needing SEPA transfers I'm not sure what advantage they offer, also I don't understand what they do (if anything) how to make it easier/safer/faster/cheaper etc. for someone in Ireland to buy bitcoins.

At present it's pretty easy to go SEPA->OKPAY->btc-e or SEPA->Kracken if you want to pay for bitcoins. btc-e for example is 0.2% commission on trades, and also once you're verified there you can also sell them, and it's a trading site you you don't have to buy at the current price, you can queue a buy order at any price you want.

The other option is localbitcoins that have sellers exactly like eircoin - agree a deal, SEPA transfer, get bitcoins, but you also have other options like Western Union and cash as well.

TheStook

pH wrote: »

They're "irish" sure, but at 5% commission, sell only and needing SEPA transfers I'm not sure what advantage they offer, also I don't understand what they do (if anything) how to make it easier/safer/faster/cheaper etc. for someone in Ireland to buy bitcoins.

At present it's pretty easy to go SEPA->OKPAY->btc-e or SEPA->Kracken if you want to pay for bitcoins. btc-e for example is 0.2% commission on trades, and also once you're verified there you can also sell them, and it's a trading site you you don't have to buy at the current price, you can queue a buy order at any price you want.

The other option is localbitcoins that have sellers exactly like eircoin - agree a deal, SEPA transfer, get bitcoins, but you also have other options like Western Union and cash as well.

Excellent reply, thank you very much.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.businessinsider.com/can-the-government-seize-bitcoins-2014-2

Alex Daley, chief technology strategist of Casey Research, a financial research firm, says that the FBI already owns between 5% and 10% of all Bitcoins.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://www.businessinsider.com/can-the-government-seize-bitcoins-2014-2

One of the most bizarrely stupid articles I've read about bitcoin in a while, and that's saying something.

alb

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://www.businessinsider.com/can-the-government-seize-bitcoins-2014-2

FUD article, firstly it's old news that the fed is controlling a lot of Bitcoin. They were directly seized from the Silk road bust. If it had been dollars or any other asset it would be treated no differently. You don't need a "financial research firm" to determine this either, you can see the balances addresses for yourself:

https://blockchain.info/address/1FfmbHfnpaZjKFvyi1okTjJJusN455paPH
https://blockchain.info/address/1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX

The article seems to imply that these coins, or other coins in possession by innocent people were confiscated because they had previously been in the hands of criminals, which is not true.

When the feds 'swoop' in on any innocent people not running a giant drug site and attempt to seize their coins get back to us.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

mt. gox gone

nxbyveromdwjpg

georgiecasey wrote: »

mt. gox gone

Insolvent, been obvious for a long time. Once the initial news passes this is definitely a good thing.
Gox were single handedly responsible for 90% of the volatility and crashes, some of it on purpose seemingly.
Sorry for those who had funds on there but as for the team and exchange itself - good riddance.