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Speedy Gonzales or Slowpoke Rodriguez?

T runner

Haven't invested in the paper version this year yet so decided to start an online log. Have looked at other logs and there are benefits as always with sahring the pain and getting advice.

Targets this year include a sub 2.45 in Paris marathon. I am using 1000 mile challenge to keep my mileage high. I have been lucky with injury as I took a sizeable jump in miles in early january following an easy couple of months.

Looking for a few good results in hill races in the summer also.

Wednesday 10 Feb 09:

14.25m easy

Tuesday 11 Feb 09:

a.m 7.75 easy
p.m circuits 1 hour
3.75 easy

11.5 total
Cycling about 15m

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TRR

Hi T-runner

Just reading through your log etc. You don't seem to do much with your club, I guess that's due to kids etc (I'm in the same boat). However I was just wondering do you guys have a good marathon network in your club? Does the head coach help with your programme. You have 2 super runners who have run sub 2.20 multiple times over the last few years. Do you ever bounce stuff off them or do they ever make suggestions regards your training? Just wondering how other people devise their schedules when they are kind of out of the club training loop like myself.

Cheers

T runner

Hi TRR

The head coach sends out weekly excel schedules for all the programs.

Bazman and Sean would be getting a lot of their schedules from external sources/coaches. Although they've brought some of their training to our schedules.

E.G I think a marathon staple for Bazman, is a weekly 21k Phoenix Park progression run which has found its way into the Rathfarnham schedule.
Theres a weekly club marathon group run there, with PBs paces from 2:17 (if bazman is there) to 2:50.

I'd get advise from Bazman via email closer to race time and he's made suggestions re training and racing/pacing.

Bazman and Sean are pretty open and welcoming for club members joining them in training and in dispensing advice.

Usually there's a more conventional large club marathon group training Spring and Autumn, and sometimes a group of similar timers might choose other locations

So there are oppurunities and advice to be got.

That said my schedule for Rotterdam was just me making it up as I went along, I didn't make any club/group runs and I think a suffered a little as a result both in my choice of training and its quality, as being honest I tend to avoid sessions.

So to answer your question, there is advice and schedules available. Lat 2 club mens captains, KiwiRunner and Bazman were marathon guys which helped.

This time ill be trying to make as many club/group runs "fit in" to my schedule, when ive more time in the Spring and Summer so ill be running a session with someone once a week.

E.G One of our club marathon sessions used to be (and hopefully still is) 2k reps. so starting at 5 x 2k , going up till 10 x 2k (all off 2 mins). Id hope to jump into some of these, but might extend them after to 6 x 3k with a moderate k recovery, 7 x 3, 5 x4 etc. There is also a marathon tempo at weekends which is ueeful (but I havent used).

You get the picture. There is advise and training groups available. I take some advise, don't heed half of it and train on my own, a bit too steadily.

I might look at marathon mission if theyre still spreading their wings too.

What's the situation re your club?

Edit: Just to point out that not having a coach at least, looking at my training through Rotterdam was a mistake. As well as not picking up on my own mistakes, i wasted a lot of nervous energy assessing and re-assessing my training while tired anyway. Bad enough if you're working off a schedule but my schedule was extremely loose and most of my mistakes stemmed from this big one. For that reason, whether i make club sessions or not, ill have a schedule firmly agreed with a coach who can monitor it, leaving me to concentrate on running well.

What i'm doing now: building high mileage while not getting too tired (not enough sleep) can be accommodated by Hadd, or a simple Lydiard plan on my own. For the important stuff ill be coached this time.

TRR

T runner wrote: »

What's the situation re your club?

There is a schedule that the vast majority follow. It's decent from what I've seen of it but I can't make it down to sessions at the moment. Also the majority who follow the programme and do the sessions are probably a little off my pace so would end up doing them solo anyo the effort to make it to club doesn't really seem worth it. There are a few of us around a similar level and we meet up informally. We've a couple of class runners and I've never approached them about my schedule but I know ecoli has and they're more than willing to pass on advice. Hopefully this summer/autumn a few of us can get together more frequently and agree on a structured plan that we can all follow and train together.

T runner

Thursday:

Lunch 6k and some core work. Not a great night sleep and still feeling last nights effort so drills/strides postponed for a day.

PM

12.5k easy home: Sandymount carparks sandbagged closed so had the prom car parks and beach almost to myself. Peaceful but errie. Legs OK.

Friday: Lunch

5k very easy return journey to get some messages.

12.5k easy tonight and ill head out later and do my strides.

Tomorrow will be another effort session although easier than Wednesdays, possibly an uphill treadmill. Im laptop for Ticknock on Sunday so Ill jog back from there and that's the week.

I just have to keep building now, get the miles in, all the other elements bedded in. 3 core sessions to date this week so happy there. 2 more and ill be happier. Ill use the drills/strides when needed so maybe once per week after this week and introduce some strength. Considering more basic stuff before plyos as ive plenty of time.

The trick now is not to get carried away as the fitness builds. I have loads of work to do to get my base near where it needs to be and that's the priority now. 2 efforts per week within maximum sustainable mileage.

T runner

Friday PM 12.5k easy (17.5k)
Saturday Treadmill.

Session was 5 mins @ 10 m/h @ 1%
then 2.5 mins @ 2%, 2.5 mins @3%...2.5 mins @ 6% and back down. 5 min's recovery jog and then 2 x 5mins @ <= 10 m/h @ 1% to finish (off 2).

I reduced speed by .5 m/h for every 1% incline added

WU/D jog to and from gym and some easy WU stuff on T'mill.

Wore HRM 175+ for 5 mins @ 10m/h.

and the HR steadied at less than 180.

On the way down, as I expected I couldn't keep it under 180 HRM, and had to reduce speed fractionally each time to achieve it.

Even though the first rep and subsequent were all under 180 HR on the way up the incline. The HR felt easier the higher the incline.
This tells me that I'm still stuggling a little with speed but not with strength.
So my power output on flat ground is limited by my biomechanics. Not so uphill where I'm comfortable.
Its no biggie, my drills/strides last week addressed it significantly. Another session this week (didn't manage another last week) will sort it.

I had considered two hills on the session but I wanted to get the later part of the session at flatter faster speeds rather than develop uphill endurance. I will do uphill tempos between 3-6' of 20-40 mins but not nearly ready for that yet.

Not a big session, but after a couple of nights poor sleep I decided I was happy to a play it safe during a recovery week.

Sunday: 15k easy run home after volunteering on Ticknock IMRA race.

The bad news is I haven't lost much weight. The good news is I haven't lost much weight.

At 66.75 kg (10st 6). When at my fittest two years ago it was 61.7kg (9st 10).
No probs being a few kilos over this time of year as long as im eating well. The extra weight will add resistance. As long as its coming down gradually. The core work should help the metabolism too.

122k ran for the recovery week. No long run. Happy enough batteries re-charged and ready for another couple of bigger weeks.

Short to medium Plan. I have National Masters XC on 23rd February. If I can Ill extend the high mileage to 2.5 weeks i.e to 19-20 February and rest up a little before the XC and a little after.
That way my next block can be 3 big weeks and 1 recovery.
Im running Wicklow mountain half marathon trail race two weeks after XC.
Ill probably do 10 days high mileage between with a slight mini taper. Afterwards my 3 weeks hard 1 week easy takes me up to the national 10k on April 6th.

Ill replace an effort run this week hopefully with a 200@5k 200 steady continuous run on track for 8-10k. This is for bio-mechanical reasons but it touches nicely on LT effort and faster paces (5k). Ill repeat 2 weeks later probably on the Tuesday before the XC. There wont be any special prep for the XC bar running an effort run on grass to get the body slightly used to the uneven ground and poorer traction. No harm in doing one of those off-road now and then anyway.

The long plan is simple at the moment. Keep chugging away as I am until I get up to the maximum mileage I can that helps my plans. There will still be a lot of time (2-3) months doing steady efforts gradually adding LT work. This will eventually dip down to faster paces (5k-3k) but AT fitness and LT will be maintained and improved. Sessions will always be sustainable with the week aerobic enough to keep improving my base.

Resistance (ability to run long @ ever faster paces) will be improved. Progression runs of 90 mins ending @ MP, fast continuous runs of 90 min plus, hilly fast runs up to 25k will be added.

Ill race once a month at most and because ill be trying to PB these races, ill work on how to get the best out of myself on these days physically and mentally. When im strong and running fast (hopefully rubberstamped by good 5k and 10k times), Ill have an easy week or two maintaining fitness
and then ill turn to the Autumn marathon.

There will be 2 basic types of session:

1. A session to extend my Aerobic power.
e.g 6 x 2k @ LT

> 5 x 5k @ MP with 1k recovery @ 90% MP
This is Extensive Intensive endurance. The Intense session @ LT is extended

2. Starting position is to comfortably run race time @ 80% race pace.
For a 2:30 marathon that's 4:10 pace (6.44 min miles) for 2:30.

Then ill start to qualify that run to where all of the duration (or 35k minimum) is @95% race pace.

2:30 run goes from 4:10 pace

> 3:45 pace

Examples:

2 hrs @ 4:10, 30 mins @ 3:45 (36k)
1.5 hrs @ 4:10, 1 hr @ 3:45 (37k)
50 mins @ 4:10, 1.5 hrs @ 3:45 (approx. 35k)
35k @ 3:50
35k @ 3:45

These sessions are to build specific aerobic resistance, basically the ability to run fast for marathon duration. Ill be used to the pace from the 90 min continuous and progression runs

Other sessions:

Apart from those 2 ill do at least 2 other PMPs:

A half and perhaps the Athone 3/4 although I may not run all the latter @ pace but rather in progression.
probably 10k : 3:55, 10k : 3:45, 10k : 3:33 or similar

Ill do other maintenance sessions (some speed/LT/ Progressions) every 20 days to keep those supports strong.

Unlike last time, This time my aerobic power (session 1) should be on par with my aerobic resistance (session 2).

If not I can work on LT by replacing some aerobic power endurance sessions, with "alternations" sessions:

i.e 20k continuous: of 1k LT effort, 1k steady.

(Power is developed during the LT rep, AT during the recovery)

I may not use them but if so id only run at most 3 of these:

1. concentrating on the LT portion,
2. hold LT pace and speed up the steady recovery.
3. (close to race time)reduce the pace of the LT segment and speed up the recovery more, hoping the average pace would now be PMP.

That said the initial two sessions ive outlined will be the backbone.

1.extending an interval session out to marathon relevant length and pace
2. running my long runs faster and faster. (specific resistance)

What is clear is that I need to get my aerobic base up to a level where I can take on and recover from the required training at the required paces. That's why the big aerobic mileage has already started.

T runner

BTW Garmin 305 finally Caput.

Can anyone recommend a basic decent GPS with HRM capability?

Stazza

T
That sounds excellent. Just a couple of very small points to consider/dismiss:
1. I'd think about the 90% mp rec and maybe go 80% mp for 1k on the Aerobic Power sessions - these are tough sessions and 80% works perfectly. And the jump from 5x4k -5x5k is a bit sudden. Maybe 5x4k - 4x5k and then 5x5k?

2. You might need to factor in a supercompensation week before you move onto the 5x4k section - to recharge etc. This facilitates a bit of a breakthrough and helps you refresh mentally etc.

They are small points and they are a long way off. But I really like your revised plan. Great stuff.

T runner

Stazza wrote: »

T
That sounds excellent. Just a couple of very small points to consider/dismiss:
1. I'd think about the 90% mp rec and maybe go 80% mp for 1k on the Aerobic Power sessions - these are tough sessions and 80% works perfectly. And the jump from 5x4k -5x5k is a bit sudden. Maybe 5x4k - 4x5k and then 5x5k?

2. You might need to factor in a supercompensation week before you move onto the 5x4k section - to recharge etc. This facilitates a bit of a breakthrough and helps you refresh mentally etc.

They are small points and they are a long way off. But I really like your revised plan. Great stuff.

Hi Stazza ,

Yep agreed, 80% is better as a base for these. The recovery portion, isn't as vital as in the alternations, as long as its not jogging.

Wasn't 100% about the exact progression of that session so I had just edited it to:

e.g 6 x 2k @ LT

> 5 x 5k @ MP with 1k recovery @ 90% MP

Possibly:
5 x 3k rec. 1k @ 80% (19k)
6 x 3k rec. 1k @ 80% (23k)
5 x 4k rec. 1k @ 80% (24k)
4 x 5k + 3k rec. 1k @ 80% (27k)
5 x 5k rec. 1k @ 80% (29k)

That could bring me from 11-12 weeks out to 3-4 weeks out.

PaulieC

T runner wrote: »

BTW Garmin 305 finally Caput.

Can anyone recommend a basic decent GPS with HRM capability?

Apparently the Garmin 220 is the bees knees. Meno was raving about his on Saturday. Enough to prompt me to go and look at one this morning...

menoscemo

PaulieC wrote: »

Apparently the Garmin 220 is the bees knees. Meno was raving about his on Saturday. Enough to prompt me to go and look at one this morning...

It's good alright but if T runner is looking for a basic model there are most likely cheaper options out there. Outside of the Garmin 30% discount offer at Xmas I think the 220 might be quite expensive?

thirstywork2

Love reading the log and you seem to be in good nick for this time of the year.
Do you plan to run any I.M.R.A races or do you find these knock the stuffing out of you and find it hard to get any quality around these?

Also just interested to know what your current pb's are from 5k-marathon and which is your best pb and which is the weakest?

T runner

PaulieC wrote: »

Apparently the Garmin 220 is the bees knees. Meno was raving about his on Saturday. Enough to prompt me to go and look at one this morning...

menoscemo wrote: »

It's good alright but if T runner is looking for a basic model there are most likely cheaper options out there. Outside of the Garmin 30% discount offer at Xmas I think the 220 might be quite expensive?

Thanks for the replies. I usually only use the HRM, knowing pace is handy, and lap function. I rarely use workout options. I reckon the most basic model would probably suffice. Lap function might be the issue im thinking.

menoscemo

T runner wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. I usually only use the HRM, knowing pace is handy, and lap function. I rarely use workout options. I reckon the most basic model would probably suffice. Lap function might be the issue im thinking.

220 has a lap function OK. It has a lot more (apparently) but I only use it for the same as you; never set up workouts...It's definitely a great watch and with a 12+ hr battery life will be useful if you ever get into ultras!!

T runner

thirstywork2 wrote: »

Love reading the log and you seem to be in good nick for this time of the year.
Do you plan to run any I.M.R.A races or do you find these knock the stuffing out of you and find it hard to get any quality around these?

Also just interested to know what your current pb's are from 5k-marathon and which is your best pb and which is the weakest?

Hi Thirsty work.

I'm afraid of IMRA races for the reason you mentioned. and they're addictive too.
For my Rotterdam marathon, I feel if I had spend the IMRA winter league weeks working on my LT and AT paces, and a bit of speed I would have run a faster marathon.
For example, I ran over 74 for the Bohermeen half. I ballsed the pacing at the start, but given the condition I was in, in January, two months later in March I should have been knocking on the door for a sub 72. Instead of doing the HM sessions for those two months , I was doing the hill races for LT.
Doing the Wicklow mountain half as part of a family weekend away and that will be it.

PBs (McMillan prediction in brackets based on 2:35.02 marathon)

5k 15.54 (15:55MM) Raheny midsummer 2013
10k 33.29 (33.03MM) Tubbercurry, very hilly. March 2012
1/2 74:25 (73:40MM) march 2012
M 2:35.02 April 2012

Marathon time is probably the best there. Followed by 5k. These are the two events I find easiest to be honest. (Easiest as in easiest to run well enough in).

Macmillan gives 15:24, 31:58, 71:16 as 2:30 equivs.

Looks daunting. But I believe that a sub 2:33 was doable last time with smarter training, so that means I need to be smarter and 3 minutes faster.

If I could run <15:35 <32:20 <72 before Frankfurt I think id have a fighting chance for a <2:30.

T runner

menoscemo wrote: »

220 has a lap function OK. It has a lot more (apparently) but I only use it for the same as you; never set up workouts...It's definitely a great watch and with a 12+ hr battery life will be useful if you ever get into ultras!!

Thanks a million.

Just spotted these too:

210

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Garmin-Forerunner-210-GPS-Sportswatch/dp/B005GT8U2A/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1391510158&sr=8-15&keywords=garmin+watch

If this is an upgrade of the 305 its not bad for 143 ST.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Garmin-Forerunner-310XT-Sports-Monitor/dp/B0025VKUPM/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1391510158&sr=8-5&keywords=garmin+watch

Krusty_Clown

T runner wrote: »

Thanks a million.

Just spotted these too:

210

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Garmin-Forerunner-210-GPS-Sportswatch/dp/B005GT8U2A/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1391510158&sr=8-15&keywords=garmin+watch

If this is an upgrade of the 305 its not bad for 143 ST.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Garmin-Forerunner-310XT-Sports-Monitor/dp/B0025VKUPM/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1391510158&sr=8-5&keywords=garmin+watch

The 310xt would be the better option of the two, particularly if you see your way to doing Advanced workouts. It also has a substantially better battery life, is waterproof, and has a lot more features than the 210 (like bread-crumb trails, routes, swimming, etc). The 210 is a decent watch, if you're looking for a stop 'n' go, with basic added functionality (like intervals).

The 220 is great, but I don't think I'd pay full price for it. It does have the added advantage of the recording your cadence, but that's probably something you could work out yourself.

T runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

The 310xt would be the better option of the two, particularly if you see your way to doing Advanced workouts. It also has a substantially better battery life, is waterproof, and has a lot more features than the 210 (like bread-crumb trails, routes, swimming, etc). The 210 is a decent watch, if you're looking for a stop 'n' go, with basic added functionality (like intervals).

The 220 is great, but I don't think I'd pay full price for it. It does have the added advantage of the recording your cadence, but that's probably something you could work out yourself.

Thanks Krusty.

If I cant get equiv price for 220 ill take the offer on the 310xt.

Edit: Sorry Krusty. Would you know offhand if my existing HRM (for 305) would work on the new model?

menoscemo

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

T

The 220 is great, but I don't think I'd pay full price for it. It does have the added advantage of the recording your cadence, but that's probably something you could work out yourself.

I'd probably agree with that. I don't think I would have bought the 220 without the Garmin 30% off offer. I ended up getting it for around £140 stg I think.

That said Amazon are offering it for £175 which is not bad
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Garmin-Forerunner-Running-Colour-Display/dp/B00G5DAEZ2/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1391514465&sr=8-5&keywords=garmin+220+watch

nerraw1111

I've the 220 and find it to be fantastic. I upgraded from the 305. I got the same deal as Meno, which was a good price. Full price, not so sure. The 30% offer might come up again given Garmin offered that deal three or four times before I finally went for it.

T-Runner - quick question re treadmill uphill sessions. Any recommendations/links on good sessions/where to start and what sort of incline I should be looking at? Aim is to improve my uphill climbing. Cheers.

T runner

nerraw1111 wrote: »

I've the 220 and find it to be fantastic. I upgraded from the 305. I got the same deal as Meno, which was a good price. Full price, not so sure. The 30% offer might come up again given Garmin offered that deal three or four times before I finally went for it.

T-Runner - quick question re treadmill uphill sessions. Any recommendations/links on good sessions/where to start and what sort of incline I should be looking at? Aim is to improve my uphill climbing. Cheers.

Hi Nerraw.

When doing the reps, practice different ways of diverting the mental discomfort. Clock watching is a killer. But counting the time in your head makes it significantly easier. Counting breaths/strides is similar.

For League races your basing it around the length of the uphill climb. Climb should be 20-25 mins for you.
1: If you're in good condition start with 6 x 2 min's uphill with 90 sec jog recovery @ 15%
Extend the session to 10 x 2min @ 15% with 60s jog recovery.
Last 1-2 should be challenging but you should be able to manage them without losing form.
A great all round climbing session for winter league/LL. Effort of last few reps is near VO2 max, but the pace will be relevant to race pace. I noticed immediate results in races last year.

If you're not in shape. reduce reps and incline as needed before working towards the above.

2. A continuous uphill tempo run of 15-25 mins. Vary incline and pace to keep it interesting. 1% = .5 mph/.8kph roughly speed change.

A longer uphill run can be run also for longer races. Start at 10%. Progression is to finish climb in faster time. Gradient can be altered once youre used to it.

3. To improve climbing power,
45-60s very hard up @ 15%. Recovery at least same time as rep. start at 6 ish, and add 1-2 each session.
Again: Last 1-2 should be challenging but you should be able to manage them without losing form.

4: specific climbing endurance:

Reps (VO2 or power) then uphill tempo. e.g 5 X 1 min hard, then 15 mins uphill tempo. rec 1 min after the reps.
The reps tire the legs, so endurance is emphasized for the 15 mins up.

e.g 2 sandwich session: 3 x 2 mins, 10 mins up, 3 x 2mins

5. Uphill alternations.

15 mins total: 1 min slightly faster than LT one minute slightly slower.
start with slow segment: e.g 8 kph, 9 kph.

Ive never done it but I will be. you need produce lactate at the faster pace and recover (clear the lactate) at the slower pace. This adaption is very beneficial to hill running because if you can clear lactate on the hoof, you can run up faster and longer. Progression is closing of the gap between the recovery pace and faster pace.
an increase in the overall pace but most importantly a closing of the gap between the recovery pace and faster pace.
The recovery pace will be not far from race pace. If you can clear lactate at this pace youre in good shape. Basically you have increased race pace by learning to clear lactate quicker. A race half achives that but not in such a focused way.

I did session 1's, and then 4's last year.

Note:

THe better the running conditions the more relevant these sessions will be.
The likes of Carrauntoohil require specific terrain training after these sessions.
LL is fine though.

A huge advantage is that all the reps are of constant speed. Rep training outdoors rarely follow this pattern. Result: you'll magically drop people after 50% of race climb.

To get 15% on an private 10% treadmill, use a block.

nerraw1111

Cheers T-Runner, really appreciate the reply. That's fantastic. Will definitely be doing those. Will let you know how I get on. Thanks again.

woodchopper

T runner wrote: »

35k @ 3:45

.

How far under 2.30 are you looking to run?

Krusty_Clown

T runner wrote: »

Thanks Krusty.

If I cant get equiv price for 220 ill take the offer on the 310xt.

Edit: Sorry Krusty. Would you know offhand if my existing HRM (for 305) would work on the new model?

Yep, it will work just fine.

T runner

woodchopper wrote: »

How far under 2.30 are you looking to run?

Anything Under 2:30 is my target.
The 3:45 pace is based on the 2:30 target.
Preparing for Rotterdam 2012, I ran a hilly 25k into wind in 3:46, and only ran 2:35, 7 weeks later.
3:45 is based on 95% (2:30) race pace. If I can run that session, then ill have developed my specific resistance enough to not slow down in last 10k. Potentially first half 75, 2nd 74:30.

Do you think that pace is too fast keeping in mind the progression I outlined?

Another route would be to run that 25k again and just extend it.

T runner

Monday 3/2/2014 AM 12.5 E PM 17.5 E (25)
Easy running. No stiffness and legs moving OK>

Tuesday 4/2/2014 AM 12.5 E Lunch 5k E PM 12.5 E (30)

Good sleep 3 nights in a row. Recovery is up significantly. As usual with these high mileage weeks its a balance between getting the volume and sessions in, and not over doing it.

Todays plan is 8k easy inc. 8 x 100 buildups at lunch. PM is a longer 18k commute home with 16k at effort. Garmin dead, and watch at home so it will be by feel and wont be hard. There will be another nice boost to fitness for the taking, after i've recovered from these two weeks. Going too hard in sessions wont serve me longer term.

woodchopper

forget what I said

T runner

woodchopper wrote: »

Granted but reading back over your logs you had a disjointed last month of marathon preparation between running hill races and missing training due to sickness. Also I seen 10k pace training in mid March. 10km pace should be done in January or at the latest early February if you are running a mid April marathon. You woundn't be doing marathon long runs in the weeks leading up to a track season full of 1500s and 3ks. Either way it was probably enough to erode the aerobic gains you had made in February. Although I think you have addressed this issue with your plan for next fall.

No. You misread the log. Last hill race was early February. Training suffered due to peaking too early.
Only 10k pace was a hilly 10k race ran progressively: not enough to erode aerobic gains at all as its not an anaerobic event. The danger with 10k pace is that it teaches the legs to burn sugar quicker. It didn't affect me that way as my last 10k in the marathon was the quickest although, arguably, my marathon was too steady at 2:35.

22 mile at 95% of target MP is a workout designed for Wilson Kipsang who has a ridiculous aerobic base in which he can recover from such workouts. Now perhaps you have 10-15 years of 5,000 plus miles a year at altitude in which case sub 2.18 not sub 2.30 should be your target. Also the top Kenyans are so fit they need an extraordinary workout to derive an aerobic adaptation. Do you believe that in order to run 2.29xx you need to attempt such a workout?

As i've pointed out I ran 95% of 2:30 pace for 25k two years ago. Ill be in better shape this time. If one of your athletes is not able to complete 35k near 95% of race pace then their resistance is underdeveloped. I have demonstrated the progression to such a workout. It is one Canova himself actually suggested for a 2:30 runner on lets run. Kipsang would do 30-2k @ marathon race pace.

5 by 5k at marathon pace with 1k float is another toughie. Abel Kirui maxed out at 4 by 6k before the Olympic games in London. Do you believe you need to do harder workouts that an Olympic medalist in terms of the effort you put in to run 2.29xx?

Kipsangs session is harder. My 5ks would be a lot steadier than Kipsangs 6k's.
Lets just exaggerate the situation to demonstrate my point:

Would 5 x 5k @ MP with a 1k float be easier or harder for me or a well trained 3:30 runner? Harder for me ofcourse. A 3:30 guy might even do his 20 miler close to PMP.

I dont want to sound like winney woodchopper but you may leave your 2.29.xx in Bushy Park next fall with some of these workouts. Personally you should be able to run 2.29xx with the following peak workouts.

3-4km easy warm up. Toilet break!
26-28km progression 90-93% averaging about 91% / 92% of marathon pace.
1km float recovery
2km hard faster than MP
1km float
1km all out (empty the tank effort) 5k effort (likely 10k/10 mile pace due to fatigue)
1km moderate recovery

35-38km in total approx 23-24 mile with 32-34km high speed average.

4 by 4k with a 1k float recovery, 2km faster than MP, 1k float, 1k all out, 1km float
25km in total with approx 19km at an average slighty faster than MP

Half Marathon at 103% of Marathon pace about 6-7 weeks out. no faster as it would impair recovery for important Marathon specific workouts

Athlone 3/4: Again you have this right with the progressive plan. In the past some athletes have raced this one all out and ruined their Dublin time.

Good sessions, thanks. Feel free to post more.

The weekend after my 25k @ 3:46 I did a 35k effort with a hard finish:

15k @ 4min pace 5 k @ 1min hard 1 min easy
10k @ 2:30 MP
2k easy
3k all out uphill.

Managed 3:35 for the mainly uphill last section, and I honestly could feel the strength from it in the last 5k of Rotterdam 7 weeks later.

If you get run 2.29xx with those peak workouts I will never post on the Athletics forum ever again!

You mean if I don't get to run?

They're only an outline. Ill tweak as I get closer.

T runner

woodchopper wrote: »

forget what I said

I.e. Some weaknesses in your "points" were qiestioned so You take the hump? Come on!

Some of your suggested sessions were good. Ah well.

woodchopper

T runner wrote: »

I.e. Some weaknesses in your "points" were exposed so You take the hump? Strange.

.

If been a weak coach is telling a man in his 40s that he probably will break down if he pursues the training apparatus of the best marthoners in the world then I guess you were right in 'exposing' woodchopper. Your arrogance is unrivalled on this Athletics forum.You have read a few pages from Google doc about Canova and have come to the conclusion that you understand his methodology . Perhaps you missed the bit where Renato says you need to run about 60,000 miles before you attempt 22-24 mile at 95% target race pace or in your case 22 miles at 103% of MP. Perhaps John Davis or whatever his name is didnt mention that bit.

Its Your training so good luck with whatever you do but dont be whinging when you dont even make it to the start line in Frankfurt. Anyway whats wrong with Dublin? Afraid that a boardies might beat you!

T runner

woodchopper wrote: »

If been a weak coach is telling a man in his 40s that he probably will break down if he pursues the training apparatus of the best marthoners in the world then I guess you were right in 'exposing' woodchopper. Your arrogance is unrivalled on this Athletics forum.You have read a few pages from Google doc about Canova and have come to the conclusion that you understand his methodology . Perhaps you missed the bit where Renato says you need to run about 60,000 miles before you attempt 22-24 mile at 95% target race pace or in your case 22 miles at 103% of MP. Perhaps John Davis or whatever his name is didnt mention that bit.

Its Your training so good luck with whatever you do but dont be whinging when you dont even make it to the start line in Frankfurt. Anyway whats wrong with Dublin? Afraid that a boardies might beat you!

Are you a troll?

Woodie, 3:45 km pace is 94% of 2:30 pace not 103%. Being able to convert from mile to km pace and understanding %-ages is an advantage in this game young man.

The whole Canova thread was about people trying to se if canovas principles could be applied to non elite runners. The thread contained links and references to canovas own booklet, his threads on lets run, video interviews aswell as his suggestions for non-elite runners.

The fact that you claimed running a 10k during marathon preparation would ruin aerobic gains,
shows that you dont really get it. A 10k is not an anaerobic effort so it cant ruin aerobic gains. Canova, claims it encourages the burning of more sugar at M race pace. Youve misinterpreted this.
Clearly youre as bad as reading and understanding canova as you are this log.

You also stated that i ran hill races and was sick in the month nefore my marathon which is imaccurate. That was 3 months before it and i dont recall being sick at all.
you pontificated based on this. Not caring if yourself righteous rants are based on fact or not is arrrogance woodie, you be.ieve you are right: whether actual facts suppoer or contradict you is irrelevant

And if yoire a successful coach, then charlie chaplin discovered special relativity.

There are some excellent boardsie marathon runners running frankfurt and it wont bother me in the slightest if one or all beats me. Frankfurt was chosen for several reasons. A fast course and more runners sub 2:30 than berlin being prominent. Easier to run 2:30 in a group of 30 woodie. Or do you dissagree?
Now either be nice woodie, or slither off and annoy someone else.