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Amanda Knox retrial begins

meemeemee

The retrial of Amanda Knox for the murder of Meredith Kercher has begun in Italy today. Amanda Knox is not there, being in the US.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0930/477250-amanda-knox-court/

The sensationalist coverage of the crime always mentions Knox and Sollecito, and alludes to the motives such as a Satanic ritual / drug fuelled "sex game" gone wrong / jealousy over Meredith being prettier / an argument about the cleaning rota.

Meredith's poor family regularly appear in the press stating that they want to "Find The Killer" and "Bring The Killer To Justice".

Yet the name Rudy Guede is rarely mentioned. He was found by Italian courts to be the killer and was brought to justice, being jailed for the crime.

Rudy Guede was a local man, linked to a number of recent burglaries in the area, who was tried and convicted of Meredith's murder. Rudy Guede's "DNA" was found "inside" Meredith naked body. His "DNA" was found on Meredith's body and underwear. His handprint in blood was on the bedsheets under Meredith's body. His fingerprints were found all over the crime scene. He left an unflushed turd in the toilet and his DNA was found on the accompanying toilet paper. Meredith's body was locked inside her bedroom from outside. Her keys, money, credit cards and mobile phone were stolen. Guede fled to Germany, where was eventually apprehended. Taken back to Italy, at his trial his defence was that he was at Meredith's apartment at her invitation, and he left her fully clothed in her bedroom to go for a dump. Upon returning to her room from the bathroom he found Meredith as she would later be found by the Police, with an Italian man in her bedroom (who had presumably raped and murdered her) who he fought with, but the man escaped. No DNA or fingerprints of this rapist/murderer were apparently ever found at the crime scene. Only Guede's. Even Amanda Knox's fingerprints were never found at the crime scene.

I feel sorry for Meredith's family, but it is amazing how often a sensationalist story about the crime and Meredith's family's quest to "find the killer", and a profile of the "crazy" Amanda Knox is published without ever referencing these facts. There are numerous people who have followed coverage of the case and are amazed to be informed that somebody was indeed convicted of Meredith's murder.

Here is RTE's coverage of the retrial.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0930/477250-amanda-knox-court/

No mention of Guede's conviction. Surely, in the interests of fairness, any coverage of the matter should involve reference to the fact that somebody was convicted of the crime ?

There seem a lot of people out there that simply don't know that the event resulted in a conviction, probably not helped by the nature of the reporting.

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Comments

Busted Flat.

Just a question, is there not an extradition agreement with the EU and the US. Could cause a lot of problems for the future in cases like this.

A Primal Nut

Mr.Micro wrote: »

She has been found guilty.....twice now. A court of law says so. She did not help her case with her lies and deceit.

Unfortunately many innocent people have been convicted all over the world. Nothing unusual there.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/

Most often they are convinced by the police to confess under duress and also change their story. Police have lots of strategies to convince them under the guise that its best for them. This is why defence lawyers tell their clients to stay silent until they arrive. Confessions and changes in story are then used against them in court in the absence of real evidence (eyewitnesses, body fluids, motive, CCTV, mobile phone records, etc). It all sounds very familiar to Sollecito & Knox.

In about 25% of DNA exoneration cases, innocent defendants made incriminating statements, delivered outright confessions or pled guilty.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/False-Confessions.php

Police depend on confessions and story changes (portrayed as lies) in the absence of real evidence.

Mr.Micro

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Just a question, is there not an extradition agreement with the EU and the US. Could cause a lot of problems for the future in cases like this.

I believe there is, but the US would have to agree to a request. Even if it did, knox could fight it legally for years. Nothing will happen, if at all, until an appeal to the Italian Supreme Court IMO.

Amazingfun

Ryan Ferguson, a man who was also convicted of a crime he didn't commit, is supporting Amanda and is speaking out publicly about her plight.
It's pretty cool seeing he only exited prison himself very recently:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/amanda-knox-confides-ryan-ferguson-22257127

You can see his story on 48 hours, unbelievable how long it took to get him out, and if it weren't for his father's undying devotion, he may never have. Same thing with Amanda really, her family went into massive debt just to pay all the fees and travels expenses --and thank God they did.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ryan-fergusons-fight-for-freedom/

Jonkenji

I think the real question here lads is. ..

Would ya?

Manach

Read a book last year on crime law and statistics. A chapter was on the Knox case - how the DNA was gathered and the statistical inferences draw. In summary, the authors were unimpressed by either the DNA collection and the likelihood that Knox was actually linked to the murder weapon. So as the amount of evidence needed to convict in criminal cases is beyond a reasonable doubt - so I'm rather surprised on this verdict.

Busted Flat.

A young girl died with her throat cut, that is where the sympathy lies. What the others may say to try and stay out of jail is unimportant. The evidence shows there were all there at the time.

Amazingfun

Busted Flat. wrote: »

A young girl died with her throat cut, that is where the sympathy lies. What the others may say to try and stay out of jail is unimportant. The evidence shows there were all there at the time.

Yes, and the murderer is in prison, his name is Rudy Guede.

Unreal how many seem to forget this.

FatherTed

She won't be extradited simply because of the fifth amendment to the US constitution which effectively it says you cannot be tried twice.

A Primal Nut

Busted Flat. wrote: »

A young girl died with her throat cut, that is where the sympathy lies. What the others may say to try and stay out of jail is unimportant. The evidence shows there were all there at the time.

There is no evidence that they were there. You would expect their DNA to be all over the room (like Rudy Guede) but it wasn't.

A Primal Nut

If you believe the prosecution story that Knox/Sollecito are guilty then you believe that they grabbed a random kitchen knife, used it to threaten Meredith and forced her to engage in a sex game, stabbed her repeatedly, then they cleaned the knife thoroughly, of almost all evidence, and then after all that, popped it back in the kitchen drawer. And left it there even after they were suspects.

Yet they portrayed as criminal masterminds by the prosecution.

That was the key evidence.

Just remembered as well about the most important witness for the prosecution, Rudy Guede, who's story completed contradicted the prosecution's case (apart from the point that Amanda and an unknown guy were there) yet they still went ahead and put him on the stand and his evidence was taken into account. It's laughable.

ebbsy

Guilty Not Guilty Guilty

I would say the next appeal will be........not guilty.

Should have worked in the legal profession.

the_monkey

I read the article by that forensics guy finally, beginning to change my mind on this ...

tigger123

Am kinda shocked the Italian Justice system isn't willing to just let this go at this stage, and that they're continuing to flogg a dead horse. The whole case is pretty embarrassing for them.

She'll never be extradited, the US wouldn't send one of their citizens down the swanny like that. They're right too, the whole case is absurd.

vicwatson

Spare a thought for Meredith's family. It's a living nightmare for them, the horror never goes away.

martingriff

FatherTed wrote: »

She won't be extradited simply because of the fifth amendment to the US constitution which effectively it says you cannot be tried twice.

You are forgetting the trial is in Italy and it is there laws that are used. It would be like if an american was in trial here for murder we would use our laws.

I am not saying they will let her go

Merkin

vicwatson wrote: »

Spare a thought for Meredith's family. It's a living nightmare for them, the horror never goes away.

It's so sad that her actual death has always been so secondary to all of this.

ebbsy

No chance she will be sent back.

humanji

martingriff wrote: »

You are forgetting the trial is in Italy and it is there laws that are used. It would be like if an american was in trial here for murder we would use our laws.

I am not saying they will let her go

But I think it's the US laws that are taken into account when extradition is being considered. It'd be against their own constitution for her to be put on trial twice and that's all that would be considered, I'd say. Also, it's been a shame of a case, so it would be sheer madness for US authorities to even consider extradition.

bumper234

Kercher 'Killer' Sollecito 'Stopped At Border'

http://news.sky.com/story/1204143/kercher-killer-sollecito-stopped-at-border

Raffaele Sollecito, the man re-convicted of Meredith Kercher's murder, has reportedly been stopped by police at Italy's border with Slovenia.

Merkin

humanji wrote: »

But I think it's the US laws that are taken into account when extradition is being considered. It'd be against their own constitution for her to be put on trial twice and that's all that would be considered, I'd say. Also, it's been a shame of a case, so it would be sheer madness for US authorities to even consider extradition.

The Fifth Amendment permits one to avoid self-incrimination.

In most countries you can be tried after an acquittal, in Ireland for example, and also in the UK.

I think the reasons to avoid extradition will be political and not legal...

seamus

martingriff wrote: »

You are forgetting the trial is in Italy and it is there laws that are used. It would be like if an american was in trial here for murder we would use our laws.

I am not saying they will let her go

An application for extradition usually looks at the concept of dual criminality. i.e. "If this act had been committed here rather than there, would the outcome of the law be similar?"

For example, if you were convicted of adultery in Abu Dhabi, you could not be extradited from Ireland, because adultery is not a crime in Ireland.

This concept typically extends to the conduct of the case and extent of the punishment. So if you were sentenced to death in the US, you won't be extradited from Ireland unless your sentence is commuted to life. Likewise, if you can raise significant concerns about how the case was conducted (e.g. juryless or behind closed doors) or the overall safety of the conviction, that too can block extradition.

So Knox could very much use the defence of double jeopardy to fight extradition from the US.

Frank Black

It's good to see that the Italian justice system has been found guilty of being completely ridiculous.

There's no way the US will let one of its citizens be extradited to such a judicially incompetent country - no when so many doubts exist about the strength of her (new and latest) 'conviction'.

lukin

This will drag on for years and Knox will almost certainly never serve a day in prison. She will have to be careful what countries she visits as if she goes somewhere that has an extradition agreement with Italy she could be arrested and sent back to Italy (I think something this happened with Agusto Pinochet but he got off in the end).
I can't believe Sollecito didn't leave the country before the verdict was announced.

Sunglasses Ron

I find it hilariously ironic that the US, which has in the last 13 years routinely engaged in kidnapping of suspects (including one from Italy), paying off African police to simply throw suspects on a plane rather than go through due extradition process, outsourced interrogation to 3rd world states to relieve themselves of activity that is considered human rights abuse if the one doing it is North Korean or Iranian, and took it upon itself to land its troops in an allied country and shoot a suspect dead in his bedroom without giving a clear answer as to how it was all legally done (not to mention carrying out a corpse kidnapping and improper body disposal) , is talking about dragging its heels on extraditing a woman found guilty in a court system that while probably not perfect is relatively accepted by the international community :pac: If Knox turned up in Italy next week after having been snatched, drugged, smuggled to Mexico and flown out by Italian special forces you can be sure they would be complaining without the slightest hint of irony.

*: Note I actually couldn't give two **** about the US violating the human rights and due process of Al Quaeda members. Regardless though I just find the hypocrisy hilarious

Pepe LeFrits

lukin wrote: »

I can't believe Sollecito didn't leave the country before the verdict was announced.

In fairness, Italy is his home and based on the evidence of the case it's understandable that he'd be confident of being exonerated.

The more I read about the case, the more I'm amazed that they've overturned the verdict.

Merkin

seamus wrote: »

So Knox could very much use the defence of double jeopardy to fight extradition from the US.

I don't agree - no judgment in Italy is final until it's final, until then it is necessarily an interim judgment so I don't see that it really offends the rule of double jeopardy at all tbh.

martingriff

seamus wrote: »

An application for extradition usually looks at the concept of dual criminality. i.e. "If this act had been committed here rather than there, would the outcome of the law be similar?"

For example, if you were convicted of adultery in Abu Dhabi, you could not be extradited from Ireland, because adultery is not a crime in Ireland.

This concept typically extends to the conduct of the case and extent of the punishment. So if you were sentenced to death in the US, you won't be extradited from Ireland unless your sentence is commuted to life. Likewise, if you can raise significant concerns about how the case was conducted (e.g. juryless or behind closed doors) or the overall safety of the conviction, that too can block extradition.

So Knox could very much use the defence of double jeopardy to fight extradition from the US.

Cool thanks for that I stand corrected

Merkin

10.05 Sollecito was picked up by police at around 1am at a hotel in Venzone, which is around 25 miles from the border with Austria and Slovenia. He was staying in the hotel with his current girlfriend. The cabinet chief of the Udine police station, Giovanni Belmonte, said police took him to the Udine police station, took his passport and put a stamp in his Italian identity papers showing that he cannot leave the country. He will be freed later, Belmonte said.

BQQ

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Speaking of DNA Guedes DNA was found all over the room but the only significant DNA belonging to Amanda and Raffaele was on a bra strap.

Remarkable, considering she lived in the apartment.
Her DNA should be everywhere.

The only ones furnished with the full facts were the juries and they came to a guilty verdict. Twice.
The idea that they are conspiring to put innocent people in prison is laughable.
The idea that the italian police are trying to frame people when they already have someone in prison is laughable.

Believe it or not, Italians are intelligent, civilised people (just like us).