recedite wrote: » The State can no longer throw up its hands and say "nothing to do with us, these are private institutions".
I Heart Internet wrote: » I'm sure many won't agree with me but I've always thought it a major failure in imagination to suggest that the teaching of religion (in primary schools) cannot be made to have great benefits to other aspects of education. It's akin to suggesting that learning from a history book doesn't improve a child's reading ability. Or that learing about nature doesn't improve one's spelling and vocabulary. Or that memorising the names of the 12 apostles or the 10 commandments doesn't improve memory skills. People may be entirely against it for other reasons, but suggesting that 2.5 hours per week on religion is somehow "wasted" or dead-time is wrong.
Cabaal wrote: » When you compare that this time is over TWICE the OECD average (avg being 4%) for time spent on religion, then yes its wasted time. There is no two ways about it.http://www.oecd.org/edu/eag2012.htm You can claim that religion in general "might" have some benefit to some people, but not when it wastes 10% of school time. This is almost same amount of time that is spent on Maths and English (12%).
Cabaal wrote: » If religion is going to be kept in government funded schools then it should be in-line with the OECD avg and it should be kept very general, it should not push any one faith above another. This means kids won't be wasting their time trying to memorize the 12 apostles or the 10 commandments for example.
Cabaal wrote: » The current 12% time spent on religion could be much better spent on physical education (Ireland is half of the OECD avg so this without a doubt needs to be improved) or Information Technology subjects
I Heart Internet wrote: » The amount of time it takes up is not an indication of its usefulness/wastefullness.
Cabaal wrote: » Ok so you see religion as useful, So I Heart Internet would you be ok with religion in general as a subject in Irish schools, a subject that gives equal footing to all faiths and doesn't push one above the other? Also may I just say that your argument for the usefulness of religion (memory etc) is awfully weak, an IT subject could also have these exact same benefits and it would also have the much bigger benefit of helping children get employment in later life.Mixing religion into other subjects (ie: writing a program to get apostles across a river) is really just laughable, has worrying undertones (religion should not be intergrated into everything in life like you are trying to do) and only segregates children of other faiths and non-faiths even more in school, this can and does lead to bullying....I've seen this first hand from both other students and teachers.
"“They integrated religion into every subject in the school,” said Martijn Leenheer, an atheist who moved from the Netherlands to a small village in west Ireland eight years ago. “For instance, in biology, they would say ‘God created these flowers.’ Even in math they do it. They basically make religion part of everything in the school.” Although he requested that his son opt out of religious classes, Leenheer later found that his son was learning how to recite prayers and said the school’s principal was unsympathetic to his concerns. ..... Long the most powerful institution in Ireland, the Catholic Church has established more than 2,500 schools under the system. Educate Together has 68 schools, mainly in urban areas.Source
I Heart Internet wrote: » It's akin to suggesting that learning from a history book doesn't improve a child's reading ability. Or that learing about nature doesn't improve one's spelling and vocabulary. Or that memorising the names of the 12 apostles or the 10 commandments doesn't improve memory skills. People may be entirely against it for other reasons, but suggesting that 2.5 hours per week on religion is somehow "wasted" or dead-time is wrong.
Knasher wrote: » Your example doesn't really seem like much of a justification. If simply memorizing names improves memory skills (and I'm pretty sure that memory doesn't work like that, but I still take your point), that is a secondary benefit that could also be derived from learning something that is unequivocally useful instead. So spending time on religion is still something that must be justified on the benefits that only come from spending time on religion.
Cabaal wrote: » Ok so you see religion as useful, So I Heart Internet would you be ok with religion in general as a subject in Irish schools, a subject that gives equal footing to all faiths and doesn't push one above the other?
I Heart Internet wrote: » Yes. I would be ok with that. But I also think that faith formation within church-run schools is fine and I'm broadly supportive of it.
Cabaal wrote: » Spot on, If memory, spelling etc is justification for so much religion class time then spending 12% time on an IT related subject would be far better use of this time, for example: - Teaches IT knowledge - Teaches keyboard skills (most people suck at typing) - Improves English - Improves memory (got to remember how to code, IT stuff etc etc) - Teaches better hand/eye co-ordination, you could have a practical IT lessons on putting together a PC, electrical stuff. - Encourages interest in IT, engineering, design, graphic art etc - Improves job prospects Physical education also has such benefits - Can be used to improve English (you have to read books about the sports/subjects) - Improves memory (health body, health mind...you have to remember training etc) - Teaches healthy living - Improves children diet - Ultimately can reduce cost to the HSE as kids get older as they'll likely be healthier, this could save the state billions - Could help reduce smoking, drinking - Encourages an interest in sports, not just football but running, cycling etc - If kids keep a healthy lifestyle when they are employed then statistically they'll be off work sick less then somebody who doesn't exercise.
I Heart Internet wrote: » Religion provides the following benefits: Salvation for ones immortal soul Teaches about culture, history and traditions Teaches about other languages and regions of the world regularly in the news Can encourage kids to think about their own place in the world/universe Touches on the classics - the bible is the only piece of classical literature many people will ever encounter Can reinforce the message of loving ones neighbour - which should be pervasive in all schools Explains what "that pointy building at the end of the street" is Can be used to bolster confidence in children through song and performance
I Heart Internet wrote: » Religion provides the following benefits: Salvation for ones immortal soul :rolleyes: - Teaches about culture, history and traditions (History already does this) - Teaches about other languages and regions of the world regularly in the news (History does this as do civics classes, far more accurate info then the bible provides as well) - Can encourage kids to think about their own place in the world/universe (Geography, History and Science subjects already properly cover this, also teaching kids to believe in a imaginary friend isn't a very good idea. Most kids grow out of this by the age of 4/5) - Touches on the classics - the bible is the only piece of classical literature many people will ever encounter (English covers this, you are claiming classics aren't included in the English subject?) - Can reinforce the message of loving ones neighbour - which should be pervasive in all schools (Don't need religion for this, also religion has no impact on reducing crime in our country and anti-social behavior in youths if it did we'd have the lowest in the OECD due to the silly amount of time spent on religion in schools) - Explains what "that pointy building at the end of the street" is (not a good enough reason I'm afraid - Can be used to bolster confidence in children through song and performance (Most schools already cover music and increasing sporting activities can also increase confidence)
I Heart Internet wrote: » Religion provides the following benefits: Salvation for ones immortal soulTeaches about culture, history and traditions Teaches about other languages and regions of the world regularly in the news Can encourage kids to think about their own place in the world/universe Touches on the classics - the bible is the only piece of classical literature many people will ever encounter Can reinforce the message of loving ones neighbour - which should be pervasive in all schools Explains what "that pointy building at the end of the street" is Can be used to bolster confidence in children through song and performance
lazygal wrote: » Do you think my children, who are being raised in no faith, won't be educated about any of those things? That pointy building, seriously? You'd want to do better than that.
I Heart Internet wrote: » I never said that these things were exclusive to the teaching of religion.
Cabaal wrote: » Not very good reasons,
lazygal wrote: » So why bother teaching religion in schools when the benefits you mentioned can all be covered in other non religious curriculum subjects? Religious people would then be able to do indoctrination in their religious buildings.
But apart from that point, it is the right of parents and religious communities to support faith formation in their state funded schools
I Heart Internet wrote: » See my point above. The fact that it has other practical educational benefits is a secondary issue (but is regularly denied by some). What you fail to see is that church-run schools ARE "religious buildings" they are an essential part of the local church community (the parish). It is not an accident that tend to be organised along parochial lines.
I Heart Internet wrote: » At the very least, if nothing else, the teaching of religion will ensure they are aware of the social convention that a lay man removes his hat in churches.
I Heart Internet wrote: » "that pointy building at the end of the street" is [...]
Banbh wrote: » Now you're getting to it. The because-we-say-so argument. Is it also the right of parents who are not members of these 'religious communities' but are just members of the local community to have their children educated in plain education in their state-funded schools?
SW wrote: » If they're (public schools) religious buildings then the state should cease funding them immediately as they are supposed to educational buildings.
