pa4 wrote: » It'd be good to get your input on things too
Stazza wrote: » I'm just typing up the next phase and I suspect when he reads it he'll be jumping in with some counter punches:D
jakek wrote: » Before Stazza jumps in, here's what I've done since running 1:05:54 in November and 2:20:41 in December: Most of the "workouts" were in the 5:10-5:30 pace range. [Daily log/details: December - January]. So it was hard to get the legs moving much faster at the half-marathon in Houston. My big races for the spring are the USA 10 mile champs (Apr 6) and the Indy 500 Half-Marathon (May 2). I have another half-marathon on March 1st which I'm sort of using as a fitness benchmark to kick off my "real" specific half-marathon training block in March/April. This is what I sent to Stazza as my outline for this "transition" block - 6 weeks leading up to the half on March 1st: [IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/- F68Fykh2quM/UuaTT0MPAvI/AAAAAAAAtOs/wtXJxR_5T1c/s640/HoustontoPHXhalf.png[/IMG] I'm keeping my weekly mileage around 90mpw for this chunk of time. Lower than I've done in the past, but I want to stay fresh and be progressively building throughout the year. And I see as I'm posting this, Stazza has just done the same!
T runner wrote: » 1) Are you feeling a lot fresher for the quality stuff on the lower mileage? 2) How are you finding the wave runs? 3) From yoir experience, what is the best way to go about building this base? Is it just a matter of consistant 15-20 mile days or does the structure need to be more subtle than that? T runner
jakek wrote: » Hey T Runner - I've numbered your questions so I make sure to answer them all... 1) Hard to know, as I don't really feel like I'm "in shape" yet. But I will tell you that a lot of the little aches have gone away, my muscles feel "smoother" (ie. no knots), and I don't really have any lingering residual fatigue. So I think that I'm in a good place as I progress into more challenging workouts. The lower mileage should start to pay off when I start hitting the gas pedal. 2) So far I like them. They force you to stay engaged in a way that typical tempo runs (even progression runs) don't. Paying attention to your breathing and perceived effort becomes more important. Now, I've only done a couple and they haven't been too difficult (only 1 minute faster segments). As those LT segments move up to 2-4 minutes, I have a feeling the workouts are going to be a lot more challenging. 3) My experience might not be the BEST approach, but I just found that I started stacking a lot of 15-20 mile days together. I got lucky that I didn't create any injuries. Keys were - running the easy runs easy, and not letting it become a mental burden. You can't dread high mileage - you have to really embrace it and want to do it. At that time I did a lot of run-commuting to/from work (I still do that), and that makes it easier to get another 7 miles in the evening - it was my way home!
jakek wrote: » T Runner - I was thinking I needed to add a caveat to my earlier thoughts, and you already touched on it... sleep. Crucial component of recovery. I'd never be able to run the amount I do w/out a solid 8 hours every night. You have to be careful about burning the candle at both ends... so make sure you approach that line without going over the edge. My training in 2011 resembled option 1 for the first 6 months. Just loads of easier running with no worries about pace... lots of running w/ my girlfriend. Picking up the end of runs occassionally. I was able to run a 50:30 15K and 15:45 5K (at moderate altitude) towards the end of that stretch.
T runner wrote: » Yep. Thats fair enough. Im only getting 7 hrs on a good night for now. Im building slowly. Im finding the general mileage is doable but i cant have any tiring sessions as i simply wont be able to recover. Think a lot of easy miles for me is the way to go, until theres more sleep available hopefully in the next few months. Wonder where Stazza is gone with his Triggers.....?
Stazza wrote: » Just back from my morning run and was thinking through a few things, 1. It's important to credit the sources for the ideas, so later I'll explain how the LT sessions, with the Kellogg twist, are a cocktail of Magness, Canova, Kellogg, and most importantly, Anderson Tuva. I'll also explain my little twist with these sessions. 2. I'll explain in more detail how the trigger works and why it's necessary in Jake's case. 3. Also, this is live, the idea is for people to see how managing the process changes and adapts. And when I've managed to get the draft plan down, I'll explain the framework, which underpins the whole system. 4. I will also, comeback to the points where I said, I'll explain that later. I made what may appear to be some sweeping statements - I will clarify these.
TRR wrote: » a lot of clarifying, explaining and coming back to things it seems
Stazza wrote: » Given that Jake needs to improve his HMP from 5:01 pace down to 4:51-53 pace and that his 5k/10k pb pace is 4:48-49, there needs to be some improvement in the 5k and 10k more notably on his 5k. The reasons for not diving straight into a 5k style schedule are that he’ll rob the aerobic base he’s currently maintaining and there’s a risk that some old niggles might flare up. Amongst other things, the risks outweigh the opportunities when it comes to this option. But he does need to find a way forward in terms of improving his 5k and 10k pb’s if he is to get it on with running 1:03:30-1:04. It’ll be difficult to achieve the ‘necessary’ improvements if he follows his planned draft strategy, regardless of the fact that it’s progressive and will lead to ‘some’ improvements. Before I go into the options, I’d like to point out the session he did this morning ~ 6 mile wave tempo in 32:05 (5:21 mi avg) alternating 4 mins @ AT with 2 mins LT (x6) with 2 extra mins @ AT to make 6 miles. The AT’s were avg 5:29 and the LT’s were avg 5:05; he wanted 5:30 and 5:05 - not bad. Even better given that he did the session off feel! What’s good about this is the fact that he’s tuning into how his body feels. He’s able to feel LT pace, which is harder to get right than AT. LT’s the important one here because ultimately (within this 5-6 month block) he’s trying to improve his speed at LT= HMPish. So, he needs a trigger that will facilitate an improvement in his 5k /10k times that will not harm his aerobic base or bring on an injury or change the nature of his training from half marathon and marathon to 5k etc. Weights, circuits, plyos and all the strength stuff are not an option, in fact it would prove regressive and detrimental and more than likely end in injury. In my experience, hardly any athletes and coaches understand this aspect of training. I include sprinters and sprint coaches here too. I’ll explain this another time. What’s left? Hill blasts for power and strength, surely that’s ok. Everybody’s raving about Canova’s 8 sec hill blasts – they’re the in-thing. Wrong way to go and would result in injury and other problems – I’ll cover this at another time. (I know I’m putting many things on the back burner but I’m trying to get to the point where I can show what Jake needs to do.) What’s left? Clean out all of Jake’s workouts. Put in the races. Jake ran 15:33 for 5k on the weekend – at altitude. That’s 5 min pace. The idea was to run it @ LT. That’s a bit faster than his current LT. But the method he employed to run the race gives the clue to the way forward. Although he ran a bit faster than LT, during the final few mins he moved down to genuine 5k race pace and then into VO2 Max territory and then faster again. After the race he dropped out 4x200m @30-31 secs. And this is the trigger; this is how he gets effectively, progressively, and safely into 5k/VO2 Max zone and faster. He runs LT sessions and finishes off by running the final few mins down in these zones. Then progresses from here. He complements this with a structured, progressive, block of Yoyos. This way, the metabolic and musculoskeletal system develop in tandem (or a least a lot closer than is the usual case) This is like a sensitive alarm clock waking these fibres; it does it progressively and safely. The muscles are ready to go, the tendons and ligaments come along too, and the skeletal system isn’t overly stressed. Meanwhile, if the effort of the repetitions is managed correctly, metabolic conditioning is progressive too. I posted this on pconn’s log: First off, 95% of the runners I’ve encountered do their Lactate Threshold and Tempo runs too fast. They normally get it wrong because they work out their LT or MP incorrectly and then end up running too fast. They also don’t take into consideration the fact that they are in the middle of a block of training and their real LT is even slower than if they worked it out correctly. The best way to do LT runs, if you haven’t got the proper means of testing, is to run by feel. Example, yesterday I wanted to bang out 8 miles as a progression run working up to LT. Didn’t happen. Legs were too heavy and tired and so I ended up modifying the 8 miles to incl 4 miles at a moderate pace. My LT pace yesterday would’ve been substantially slower than today. It moves about depending on how your body feels etc. So what is ‘by feel’? Feel doesn’t mean the pace that you can handle for 60-65mins. It means the effort you could handle for about 60 mins, depending on your ability – most people on here would fall into the 55-60 range. And by feel, you should be running comfortably hard – blowing a bit but not knocking the back out of it; you should be going fast enough so that your mind isn’t thinking about your holidays etc – you need to be focused on maintaining a relaxed rhythm. When you’ve finished a 20 min effort, within a 2 min jog rec you should be able to repeat the 20 mins, no problem. A lot of people go out and run 20-24 mins but most wouldn’t be able to repeat it after a 2 min jog rec. Too fast. So, we’ll call the 2x20min EFFORT the starting point. This is the easiest session. Yep, you use a watch for the time, but not the pace or distance. We then take this session down to 4x10 mins at the same EFFORT – not pace. The recovery remains at 2 mins. We then take the session down to 3x8 mins at the same effort but now we take 3 mins rec – there’s a good reason for this (but I’m not telling why: it’ll start getting messy). From here we drop down 4x6mins at the same EFFORT off 3mins. Are you ready? Now we rebound out and work our way back up with the exact same EFFORT and recoveries. Once get back to 2x20 mins – substantial improvement has occurred. What’s even better is that because you haven’t used your Garmin you’re not sure how much improvement you’ve made and that’s part of it. We then shift into the Lactate shunt sessions. These are awesome and they too are done in a rebound style. Here’s how they go: 1.3x (8mins at LT EFFORT, 1 min jog rec, 1 min at 5k EFFORT, 3 min jog rec) How great is that, ay? 2. 4x(6mins at LT EFFORT, 1 min jog rec, 1 min at 5k EFFORT, 3min jog rec) You’re liking these babies, aren’t ya? 3. 5x(5mins at LT EFFORT, 1 min jog rec, 1 min at 5k EFFORT, 3 min jog rec) Super-smashing-great I hear you cry. 4. 8x(3mins at LT EFFORT, 1 min jog rec, 1 min at 5k EFFORT, 3 min jog rec) This is the daddy of all daddies. And then back up... Now, what Jake needs to do, imho, is one of the above sessions each week. But he needs to add in a progressive finish in the final stages of the runs. But NEVER making it longer than 2-3 mins. I’ll explain why another time. He needs to complement these sessions with Yoyo’s (a more effective trigger) and AT runs (no waves or reps – not yet anyway: they come after this block and they start the opposite way round to where Jake’s starting ie longer reps first working down. I’ll explain that later too). There’s a knack to the AT runs too, but I’ll get there - sometime. So the weekly workouts in Phase 1 would look like this: 1. LT with VO2 Trigger 2. Yoyos 3. AT’s. What are yoyo’s? That’s coming next.
Stazza wrote: » ...And this is the trigger; this is how he gets effectively, progressively, and safely into 5k/VO2 Max zone and faster. He runs LT sessions and finishes off by running the final few mins down in these zones.
jakek wrote: » When I look back to my buildup towards the Boston Marathon in the winter of 2012, I was finishing a lot of my runs like this - the last half-mile was often really moving. I got fast that spring, and came off the marathon and ran my best 10K (30:03). This also works well given some variables I'm working with: 1) Colder weather in February/March 2) Running early in the mornings in that colder weather. I'm usually starting my primary run at 5:30-6:00am, before work. So while its difficult to get down to those 5K paces off the bat in the mornings, I find I can do it easier (and w/ less injury risk) when done at the end of the session.
