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Becoming a Trader in Dublin

ixus

There are a few old threads on the forum in respect to becoming a Trader in Ireland. I'm starting this thread to give an updated view and answer questions where I can. I'll try and explain things in layman's terms.

To start with, there are a number of companies that operate in Dublin:
Susquehanna (SIG)
Virtu Financial
Geneva Trading
Positive Equity
Tower Trading
Myriad Trading
ElectroRoute
(Can't think of anymore off hand.)

SIG and Virtu are two of the largest trading companies operating in the world. They are predominantly quant driven market makers, algo and arb traders, covering futures, options, ETF's, Cash etc. SIG give a good run down on their own website of what they look for and a day in the life of a trader there. Both firms operate in the same space and are notoriously hard to get into. They operate a round the year recruitment drive.

Geneva Trading has a number of trading operations. They cover algo, market making and arb strategies but, also have discretionary traders who employ their own strategies. Geneva recruit year round for experienced traders and once or twice a year for Trainee Traders/Interns. (They're recruiting now).

Positive, Myriad and Tower (Dublin) mainly employ discretionary traders. Everyone looks for experienced, profitable traders while taking Trainee Traders once, or maybe twice a year. I'm open to correction on specific details so won't get too specific.

In terms of the Life as a Trader in Geneva, Positive etc. Idu wrote a post a few years ago that remains close to a standard day. There have been changes as the markets and technology has evolved:

Idu wrote: »

Occupation: Trader

Qualifications held: BComm

Previous Jobs: none

Daily/weekly/yearly routine: Researching markets, dicussing strategies, trading would take up 80% of the work day

Age bracket: (optional) under 30

General comments: Great financial rewards, takes discipline and hard work, exciting, challenging, long days but plenty of down time during the day to relax, watch movies, gym etc etc

Day In The Life: (describes just a regular day in detail) In the office at 6:45. Find out what has happened in Asian markets overnight, what relevant announcements have been made, check overnight positions are correct for the 7am open.
7am to 9am European markets open so this time is all for trading.
9am - 1pm Down time. Can be used for research, sleep, watch tv, computer games. Whatever takes your fancy
1pm - 1:45pm US economic data released. Busy trading period
2:15 - 5pm US markets open and European markets close at 16:30. Trading
5pm - 9pm Down time until the US close at 9. Some European futures markets close at that time too. Oil closes and 7:30 and crops at 7:15. Trade for around 10 minutes around each of these closes otherwise it's down time.

I'm open to answering questions (where I can).

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jon1981

I notice Idu had a BComm while the main requirement from the list of employers you have there are looking for graduates from mathematics or courses with high amounts of mathematical content.

Do you believe only the best traders are mathematical wiz kids? Is gut instinct still part of the job (or was it ever?). Also do you think an average level of maths will prevent most graduates from becoming traders?

ixus

jon1981 wrote: »

I notice Idu had a BComm while the main requirement from the list of employers you have there are looking for graduates from mathematics or courses with high amounts of mathematical content.

Do you believe only the best traders are mathematical wiz kids? Is gut instinct still part of the job (or was it ever?). Also do you think an average level of maths will prevent most graduates from becoming traders?

If you are working as a quant, market maker, hft, algo, statistical or arb trader; you need to have strong knowledge in maths, programming or market structure. It would be desirable to have all three.
The obvious reasons are:
1. Your competitors are strong in this area.
2. If you are not strong, there's more scope for error and loss of capital.

As a discretionary trader, there's more scope for "gut feel". The thing is, you need to be able to think on your feet extremely fast. Most traders will have some software for keeping tabs on their positions and p&ls. You still need to be able to do some calculations in your head as you trade on the fly or react to market movements. If you can do math/calculations in your head at speed under pressure, you can react to the market. IF you can't, there's a good chance you will either make a bad move or worse, freeze in a trade.

freeze4real

Is doing a course in financial engineering or quant finance a prerequisite to getting into this P.E or Geneva ?

And for Geneva trading do you place emphasis or technical or fundamental analysis ?

There are also some firms that do trading or a bit if trading bit to my knowledge is just a few ego do it.

E.g citi has a trading desk in town but just a few trade, There's also a free that trade fx in IBRC. There's a fx algo trading team in BNY Mellon in Dublin. I'm pretty sure it's a young new team. Again open to correction.

Helpneeded86

Should I push the poker with a company like Geneva. I spent a good few years grinding small stakes online poker. I also will have a degree in economics and finance at the end of May.

Mully_2011

Would a Science degree be of any use when applying to be a trader??

ixus

To answer Freeze, Mully &Help in one go:

All Degrees/Masters/Qualifications would be looked at.

If we were to compare two candidates; one with a degree in Computer Engineering and a Masters in Finance versus the other with a degree in Arts. Generally speaking, candidate one will stand out.

What matters next would be a candidates additional skill set. Work experience, a demonstrable, profitable account in trading/poker, some form of individual achievement that makes you stand out would be desirable.

Communicating your desire to become a trader and what you have done to further your chances would seem like a reasonable approach.

ixus

Freeze. Fundamentals are what move the market. Supply and Demand. Every trader needs to understand the fundamentals of the market they're trading be it corn, oil or fixed.

Technicals are generally used for entry/exit points.

Order flow is a huge factor too.

Every trader needs an understanding of each. It's up to the trader how they use them.

freeze4real

Also knowing what kind if trader you want to be is essential. E.g if it's HFT, you need the likes of SIG, virtu, trade street.

Science degrees and mathematics degree are way preferred to finance and economics degree.

Back in the days when algo trading was less popular guys from business degrees could be employed easily but down they're down the pecking order as algo has taking trading to a new level.

In saying that a few guys with finance and Econs degree have been snapped up by some companies here in Ireland and UK

These guys have good results, academically bright, have a good sense of what's going on in the markets and more importantly developed an interest in finance.

@ixys thanks for the reply, but( silly question) if technical is just for entry and exit why should I bother with the fundamentals.

If I read the charts correctly a trade can be executed rightly that's entering rightly and existing rightly. Although Learning the technicals do not guarantee but to some certain degree the probability of getting the execution of a trade right is far greater than using fundamentals.

Edit:

There's also electricity trading a section of ESB do it and a firm called electro route.

There's also a trading desk at Davy's.

ixus

What if technically, the soybean price is weak but then there's a strike across all the ports in Argentina preventing delivery? Will you sell that on a short term/ intra-day echnical?

ixus

HFT/Algo is a bit of a general term these days.

An Arb trader will try and lock in a profit arbing say the cash, futures, options and ETF at speed.

A stat traders machine will calculate the probability of a trade and execute at speed.

An orderflow traders machine will trade based on price action.

Every company I mentioned probably has colocation in order to execute at speed. You don't need to be at SIG or Virtu for this.

ixus

Forgot Electroroute. I know a couple of lads there. This is Power Trading. They have very specific requirements for entry. See their website.

Will add to list.

freeze4real

ixus wrote: »

What if technically, the soybean price is weak but then there's a strike across all the ports in Argentina preventing delivery? Will you sell that on a short term/ intra-day echnical?

Assuming that technically in the long term the soybean price is weak then I'll go short. Weak price =low price = weak demand

But in the short term the strike in Argentina will increase the demand for soybean making prices go up. The strike won't last so the demand and increase in price is momentarily

In the short term I'll buy soybean but still make an exit as I know that the long term technicals point to selling it.

Assuming I'm right this scenario can also be illustrated using technical analysis on short time frame and long time frames.

CM100

With regard to the discretionary traders, what are guys mainly focused on: front month outrights, calendar spreads, inter market spreads?
Thanks

ixus

freeze4real wrote: »

Assuming that technically in the long term the soybean price is weak then I'll go short. Weak price =low price = weak demand

But in the short term the strike in Argentina will increase the demand for soybean making prices go up. The strike won't last so the demand and increase in price is momentarily

In the short term I'll buy soybean but still make an exit as I know that the long term technicals point to selling it.

Assuming I'm right this scenario can also be illustrated using technical analysis on short time frame and long time frames.

You're trades are correct in theory but you can't make them without the fundamental knowledge. If you weren't aware of them, you would likely be selling any rally early based on short term technicals.

BP will trade the oil fundamentals not technicals i. e. The big players don't care about technicals.

ixus

CM100 wrote: »

With regard to the discretionary traders, what are guys mainly focused on: front month outrights, calendar spreads, inter market spreads?
Thanks

Every trader is different.

There are less and less outright traders out there though in general as they are likely to move more randomly.

arrowloopboy

ixus wrote: »

Every trader is different.

There are less and less outright traders out there though in general as they are likely to move more randomly.

That seems a shame .

Johnny Cage

What are the advantages of trading with a firm over just trading by yourself at home? (I'm assuming that's an option)
Are you at a significant disadvantage trading in Ireland over other countries like the UK, European countries, USA because your further from the exchange and having a worse connection?

ixus

Johnny Cage wrote: »

What are the advantages of trading with a firm over just trading by yourself at home? (I'm assuming that's an option)
Are you at a significant disadvantage trading in Ireland over other countries like the UK, European countries, USA because your further from the exchange and having a worse connection?

Advantages:
Leverage - if you were to trade with say an IB account. You would probably need to have min 50k down to get any sort of decent size to trade with.

Transaction Fees - a retail trader will incur the highest transaction fees. A prop firm or one with designated market maker status the lowest. For example; a trader could make a profit on a 1 tick move where retail would need a few ticks to cover transaction costs. Spread betters need 20 to break even.

Speed - retail just hasn't a hope of competing here.

Environment - Trading at home in isolation versus in one with like minded people. Personally, I am very much an individual in my trading style and tend to go against the grain a lot but, I could never have hoped to have gained so much knowledge working from home.

Technology - having an IT team and a tech team there to respond to your needs.

These are the main ones off hand.

With regards Dublin versus locations beside the exchange. The top firms will have servers located at the exchange. This is called Colocation. That means I place my order and it sits at the exchange waiting for the conditions to be executed. You'll only potentially experience lag if you went to place an order on a data release. This would be subsecond and barely noticeable to the eye. You wouldn't beat HFT here anyway.

mono627

ixus wrote: »

There are a few old threads on the forum in respect to becoming a Trader in Ireland. I'm starting this thread to give an updated view and answer questions where I can. I'll try and explain things in layman's terms.

...

I'm open to answering questions (where I can).

Sounds stressful, you must be a little mad to put yourself through that every day.

ixus

mono627 wrote: »

Sounds stressful, you must be a little mad to put yourself through that every day.

Long time no see.

Seems like it's scared plenty off asking questions anyway!

I had an interesting discussion on another thread about the FTSE. I said it was a case of buy Europe and UK at the start of the year. That was some move in the DAX during the week.

For those that don't know, the DAX outperformed the ESX (and everything else) massively. Both outperformed the FTSE and all three smashed the S&P. It's quiet logical if you think about it. Taper in the US and strong UK data against the ECB talk of fighting deflation. The Japanese have been ploughing their money into European debt since the start of the year. Next stop was looking for yield in European stocks.

mono627

ixus wrote: »

Long time no see.

Seems like it's scared plenty off asking questions anyway!

I had an interesting discussion on another thread about the FTSE. I said it was a case of buy Europe and UK at the start of the year. That was some move in the DAX during the week.

For those that don't know, the DAX outperformed the ESX (and everything else) massively. Both outperformed the FTSE and all three smashed the S&P. It's quiet logical if you think about it. Taper in the US and strong UK data against the ECB talk of fighting deflation. The Japanese have been ploughing their money into European debt since the start of the year. Next stop was looking for yield in European stocks.

Been a while lad. Surprised at the lack of questions here actually, I remember chomping at the bit fishing for any bit of info I could get my hands on trying to get in the game. You were the same yourself if I remember correctly. Maybe no one wants to be a trader any more, wouldn't blame them

Decent moves out of them during the week alright, seems like we're getting proper fund buying every time we break all time highs, and it's fairly relentless buying too at times. Hard to believe we might actually see DAX at 10000 in the not too distant future.

ixus

Was chatting to a mate in a major institution the previous week. He called the ESX at 3175 for options, a major strike. Was only surprised it got there from Tues evening to Wed close. Topped out on the week there. Apparently there were a heap of big guys caught short gamma the previous week.

Also, banks were viewed as extremely cheap compared to credit conditions so had to be bought.

arrowloopboy

mono627 wrote: »

Been a while lad. Surprised at the lack of questions here actually, I remember chomping at the bit fishing for any bit of info I could get my hands on trying to get in the game. You were the same yourself if I remember correctly. Maybe no one wants to be a trader any more, wouldn't blame them

Decent moves out of them during the week alright, seems like we're getting proper fund buying every time we break all time highs, and it's fairly relentless buying too at times. Hard to believe we might actually see DAX at 10000 in the not too distant future.

I'm 15 years too late lads,unless theirs a route for a 35 year old guy with education as far as the leaving cert .
Other that that I'd be chomping at the bit,and could have been epic

I've been trading u.k equities for 3 years (with a low risk strategy) ,with consistent great returns ,I'm just afraid that with my lack of proper financial education,my luck may eventually run out.
I read books and research as much as I can(I also run a business),but am I right I thinking theirs no courses I could take to sharpen myself up,as the only courses I see advertised look like money rackets.

P.s ,their should be loads of replies as soon as some of the whipper snappers see The Wolf of Wall street

.

Thanks,

Arrow

ixus

arrowloopboy wrote: »

I'm 15 years too late lads,unless theirs a route for a 35 year old guy with education as far as the leaving cert .
Other that that I'd be chomping at the bit,and could have been epic
I've been trading u.k equities for 3 years (with a low risk strategy) ,with consistent great returns ,I'm just afraid that with my lack of proper financial education,my luck may eventually run out.
I read books and research as much as I can(I also run a business),but am I right I thinking theirs no courses I could take to sharpen myself up,as the only courses I see advertised look like money rackets.

P.s ,their should be loads of replies as soon as some of the whipper snappers see The Wolf of Wall street .

Thanks,

Arrow

I don't think age is a barrier. It's the family commitments that can be a barrier. Like going an extended period without earning while you learn the ropes. Or the hours that are put in midweek (though being self-employed probably trumps that!).

Education is a difficult one to call. I've met highly educated people who can't take direction and people who are well educated on paper but just haven't a breeze.

Risk & Money management is the biggest thing. There are so many markets out there that it's impossible to become an expert in them all.

odd1

arrowloopboy wrote: »

I'm 15 years too late lads,unless theirs a route for a 35 year old guy with education as far as the leaving cert .
Other that that I'd be chomping at the bit,and could have been epic
I've been trading u.k equities for 3 years (with a low risk strategy) ,with consistent great returns ,I'm just afraid that with my lack of proper financial education,my luck may eventually run out.
I read books and research as much as I can(I also run a business),but am I right I thinking theirs no courses I could take to sharpen myself up,as the only courses I see advertised look like money rackets.

P.s ,their should be loads of replies as soon as some of the whipper snappers see The Wolf of Wall street .

Thanks,

Arrow

Hi in the same boat myself, there is a new course.... Certificate in professional trading. Which. Might give the insight as to have you got what it takes to be a pro trader.

daheff

freeze4real wrote: »

Assuming that technically in the long term the soybean price is weak then I'll go short. Weak price =low price = weak demand

That is not true.

Demand could be high...but only up to a certain level. Above that level there is no market (maybe because of high yields in soybean crop making it readily available)

jackofalltrades

Hi OP

I'm currently studying for a Certificate in International Finance, and as part of the course I have to do an internship in a finance company.
The area of trading really interests me and I've been reading up on technical trading over the last few months.
I see one or two of the trading companies that you listed offer internships and I was thinking of applying for one.

Do companies tend to insist that candidates have a degree behind them?

Do they look for some kind of experience in finance or in trading?

Is it better to try the likes of spread betting at home yourself, before approaching companies? To get some kind of experience behind you.

I saw from Idu's post, in your first post that he works a 14 hour day, is this typical in the profession? And if so does this lead to people being exhausted or does the downtime during the day help with this?

Is age a factor in starting up as a trader?

Thanks in advance for an help you can offer.

ixus

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Do companies tend to insist that candidates have a degree behind them?

Do they look for some kind of experience in finance or in trading?

Is it better to try the likes of spread betting at home yourself, before approaching companies? To get some kind of experience behind you.

I saw from Idu's post, in your first post that he works a 14 hour day, is this typical in the profession? And if so does this lead to people being exhausted or does the downtime during the day help with this?

Is age a factor in starting up as a trader?
.

It feels like you haven't read the entire thread...

A degree would generally be a minimum requirement unless you have some form of expertise/experience that was desirable.

Experience in trading with your own money (successfully) would be desirable. Depending on the type of experience, an Internship wouldn't be necessary.

It's like applying to any job. Make yourself as attractive a candidate as possible.

I've addressed the age question before.

14 hour days are not difficult. Getting out of bed can be, but then getting out of bed can be difficult at any time. The reason people trade those hours is simply that the European and US markets are open. Opportunity. Mentally, I'll be tired on a Friday night after working hard all week but, that's it.

Value Hunter

Whats the average annual return of a professional trader?

odd1

Ixus
I have heard/read that the percentage of interns that make it as a trader is very low, and burn out is very high of those few that make it.
As your in the industry, what's your view on this?