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Tradesmen : Do you trust them?

Ush1

I find it hard dealing with most Irish tradesmen when you want a job done to a standard.

When pricing up jobs I find they often offer a "patch things up" fix rather than actually get to the root of the problem. Probably a lot of people happy with that approach but I guess I'm more anal about such things. I want to know what's being done and it should make sense, but unfortunately lots of the time what they're saying doesn't or it conflicts with other stuff you've been told.

This can go for many professions in my experience. Plumbers, roofers, mechanics, even the likes of people that work in IT.

Anybody else find dealing with them very frustrating?

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Tony EH

crockholm wrote: »

Who the actual fukk actually likes dealing with tradesmen? You deal with a tradesman because something is wrong with the car,the heating,the electricity,the tiling etc. You only go to them when there is a problem,you in particular seem to take your irrational grudge with you,and I'm not one bit surprised that you have problems,I certainly wouldn't do business with you-recession or otherwise.Timesink,a Word I discovered on this site seems applicable.

No, people don't like dealing with tradesmen because it's such a minefield and there are so many fuckers involved that are out to do you.

Things will always go wrong with items and stuff will always need repair.

The problem is compounded when you have Jack the fucking lad come over, do a crap job and then charge for it for the privilege.

And I don't have an "irrational grudge". It's called experience, built up from dealing with cowboys, posing as tradesmen.

Experience which has served me well in spotting the chancers, like one prick who said it was going to cost me 2000 to put a bit of dry lining board on a 13 foot wall.

:pac:

crockholm wrote: »

The reason the mullachers exist,and you are right,they were there pre boom and like cockroaches have a knack of surviving hardships,is because people use them as a low cost alternative.

This is bullshit. The reason they exist is because there are a large number of chancers who know that the average customer doesn't know anything about building or repairing houses, etc, and they use their ignorance to rip them off.

Also, as someone else has already mentioned, cost is absolutely no indication of a job well done. All too often the cowboys have ripped off the customer for MUCH MORE than the true cost of what they were asked to do.

crockholm wrote: »

...but never let the truth get in the way of a good rant.

Whether you're butthurt about it or not, the truth is that the awful reputation that builders have in this country is one that's been built by themselves and they continue to leave people with terrible stories.

This simply wouldn't happen if there were more honest people involved in the trades, than dishonest people.

Ush1

Call me whatever you like but my feelings on it are this.

There is of course skilled and good tradesmen, tradesmen that are actually interested in what they do and have passion and pride in their work. It's not an exclusively Irish thing either but a lot would not fall into that category.

First of all, most of the people I know involved in trades left school before leaving cert. I'm not saying it made any difference or that they were less intelligent than others, but they did leave early. They usually went for a trade because that was the done thing, not because they had any particular interest in what they were doing.

Now that's all fine, lots of people haven't a passion for their job but the thing is more often than not the work they do is expensive in a relative sense. Quotes, methods and materials can vary widely which makes consumers anxious.

crockholm

Tony EH wrote: »

No, people don't like dealing with tradesmen because it's such a minefield and there are so many fuckers involved that are out to do you.

Things will always go wrong with items and stuff will always need repair.

The problem is compounded when you have Jack the fucking lad come over, do a crap job and then charge for it for the privilege.

And I don't have an "irrational grudge". It's called experience, built up from dealing with cowboys, posing as tradesmen.

Experience which has served me well in spotting the chancers, like one prick who said it was going to cost me 2000 to put a bit of dry lining board on a 13 foot wall.

:pac:

This is bullshit. The reason they exist is because there are a large number of chancers who know that the average customer doesn't know anything about building or repairing houses, etc, and they use their ignorance to rip them off.

Also, as someone else has already mentioned, cost is absolutely no indication of a job well done. All too often the cowboys have ripped off the customer for MUCH MORE than the true cost of what they were asked to do.

Whether you're butthurt about it or not, the truth is that the awful reputation that builders have in this country is one that's been built by themselves and they continue to leave people with terrible stories.

This simply wouldn't happen if there were more honest people involved in the trades, than dishonest people.

And there is the crux,as you said yourself "Cowboys posing as tradesmen"- this is something I would like to see eradicated. I came to this thread yesterday to share an experience all too common,and in the hope that people who engage with builders would become a bit more European in their demands.Cowboys are one of the reasons that I am still in exile.

Yet something set your inner crank senses tingling,and here you are argueing with me even though we both want pretty much the same thing!

I could give you anecdotal evidence about,cowboys underpricing my work,but we both know how much that would be worth,so to call bs on it wouldn't be just either.

It is a very frustrating thing about working in Ireland whereby you need diplomas/degrees/certs to work in many jobs, we even give these certs to builders & mechanics to ensure that they have to have at least to be able to perform at a certain standard,yet these are never enforced,though finally I Believe there is a Little movement on the issue.

And finally Tony,unless you're a certified Proctologist,I would suggest you spend less time worrying about other posters butts and what hurts said butt:D

Tony EH

I think you'll find that the vast majority of customers would love a more regulated system when it comes to the trades. It's the customer who gets burned, so such a measure will benefit them greatly.

The problems, however, are not with the customers. The problems are with the trades themselves. It seems that, over here, any Tom, Dick or Harry can get involved in some way and chance their arm.

The customer is not at fault if they get ripped off by these people. More often than not, the customer is a complete novice when it comes fixing a toilet, plumbing the heating, or wiring up electrics. After all, why would they be educated in such things?

But, for too long shoddy work has been carried out by extremely dodgy tradesmen, because they don't care about reputation, as there is generally no real way to check the reputation of the tradesman you hire and they're usually able to move onto another job anyway. So, it's on the fly a lot of the time, or on word of mouth, which isn't always reliable.

I and I'd say everybody else, including those in the business, would love it, if the percentage situation was reversed and the cowboys were outnumbered by the decent folk. But, they're not, as it stands, because it's far too easy to continually get away with ripping off customers with the way the situation is at present.

I'm sure everyone would like to simply call up a person, when they needed a job done and not have to worry about whether they were going to be left with a shit job and out of pocket into the bargain.

crockholm

Tony EH wrote: »

I think you'll find that the vast majority of customers would love a more regulated system when it comes to the trades. It's the customer who gets burned, so such a measure will benefit them greatly.

The problems, however, are not with the customers. The problems are with the trades themselves. It seems that, over here, any Tom, Dick or Harry can get involved in some way and chance their arm.

The customer is not at fault if they get ripped off by these people. More often than not, the customer is a complete novice when it comes fixing a toilet, plumbing the heating, or wiring up electrics. After all, why would they be educated in such things?

But, for too long shoddy work has been carried out by extremely dodgy tradesmen, because they don't care about reputation, as there is generally no real way to check the reputation of the tradesman you hire and they're usually able to move onto another job anyway. So, it's on the fly a lot of the time, or on word of mouth, which isn't always reliable.

I and I'd say everybody else, including those in the business, would love it, if the percentage situation was reversed and the cowboys were outnumbered by the decent folk. But, they're not, as it stands, because it's far too easy to continually get away with ripping off customers with the way the situation is at present.

I'm sure everyone would like to simply call up a person, when they needed a job done and not have to worry about whether they were going to be left with a shit job and out of pocket into the bargain.

Here's hoping for such a day!
I would just like there to be recognition that the cowboys should not be lumped in with the tradesmen,I have 3 good friends who say they are Carpenters,2 of them did apprenticeships and the third picked up a toolbelt and identified himself as a shuttering Carpenter.Any time he describes himself as a chippy in our Company he is quickly reminded that whatever he is,carpenter is not it.
Ideally,I would like to see the safe pass course done just once,but every 2 years or so,all qualified tradesmen have to go to a similar workshop type meeting and be briefed on the new methods,new laws etc. rather than falling asleep while some geebag regurgitates the same pseudo-safety shyte from the last time.

I also believe that the customers deserve better.

Femme_Fatale

crockholm wrote: »

Ditto.
Some people are just cranks and Believe that we're part of some shylock-esqe coven who go out to screw people deliberately(see above).I have been warned by other tradesmen about other clients and companies that are difficult to work with.The cranks then go the mullachers and predictably have sub-standard work done.

You would have to be blind to not acknowledge some of the crap service that has permeated through the Construction industry,unfortunately during the boom people accecpted work that was/is unaccecptable-an elderly relative in the Dublin region had substandard work done on her extention.

The Point that I'm trying to make is that the cowboys make Life shyte for clients and tradesmen alike, and I for one would agree with tighter Controls on Construction/mechanic workers,best for everyone in the long-run.

And you don't hear half as much about the other side of the "cowboy" coin - those who don't pay for the work; I'd say it's a nightmare trying to chase up payment from a lot of self entitled chancers.

cantdecide

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

And you don't hear half as much about the other side of the "cowboy" coin - those who don't pay for the work; I'd say it's a nightmare trying to chase up payment from a lot of self entitled chancers.

+1,000,000

The key is reasonable expectations. If you want a standard fit for a king, you must be prepared to pay for it or at least you will need to consult more than one trade. I mean if you want some electrical work done, are you willing to have carpenters, tilers and painters at hand just in case Mr.Sparks should scratch something.

Builders aren't artisans who can customise every aspect of the material. They are often dealing with circumstances as they find them and making reasonable compromises. Eg, the way a tiler divvies up the spacing to accommodate standard sized tiles with uneven and off square walls and floors. Or retrofitting materials with a level of unavoidable collateral damage.

crockholm

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

And you don't hear half as much about the other side of the "cowboy" coin - those who don't pay for the work; I'd say it's a nightmare trying to chase up payment from a lot of self entitled chancers.

Yup,and who fancies a trip to a small claims Court? Sometimes you just walk away,thankfully it's not that common.The whole sector could do with some tweeking,everyone involved deserves better than "shur,t'will be grand"

cantdecide

crockholm wrote: »

Yup,and who fancies a trip to a small claims Court? Sometimes you just walk away,thankfully it's not that common.The whole sector could do with some tweeking,everyone involved deserves better than "shur,t'will be grand"

That's the problem. People think they can choose the cheapest price without asking any hard questions because in the back of their mind the think 'shur I'll have in the small claims court if it goes wrong'. People need to be grown ups when it comes to having work done.

mfceiling

crockholm wrote: »

Yup,and who fancies a trip to a small claims Court? Sometimes you just walk away,thankfully it's not that common.The whole sector could do with some tweeking,everyone involved deserves better than "shur,t'will be grand"

It is.....i'm in construction and the amount of lads who aren't getting paid is ridiculous.

At present i'm holding out for nearly €3000 to be paid before xmas - stories ranging from "he'll be back in dublin tomorrow with the chequebook" to "we never got that invoice (emailed and confirmation of receipt of email).

I got stung in january this year for €3250 - 2 builders - 1 who mispriced the job and left a bunch of us swinging and 1 who said i'd gotten enough work from him anyway.

Cuts both ways with people - i always do a decent job and have the same mobile number the last 12 years - so i can always be contacted.

Just imagine working for tesco or AIB or Bewleys and wondering if you would get paid before xmas or even paid at all!!

crockholm

mfceiling wrote: »

It is.....i'm in construction and the amount of lads who aren't getting paid is ridiculous.

At present i'm holding out for nearly €3000 to be paid before xmas - stories ranging from "he'll be back in dublin tomorrow with the chequebook" to "we never got that invoice (emailed and confirmation of receipt of email).

I got stung in january this year for €3250 - 2 builders - 1 who mispriced the job and left a bunch of us swinging and 1 who said i'd gotten enough work from him anyway.

Cuts both ways with people - i always do a decent job and have the same mobile number the last 12 years - so i can always be contacted.

Just imagine working for tesco or AIB or Bewleys and wondering if you would get paid before xmas or even paid at all!!

Sorry to hear that,old habits seem to die hard...this site needs a builders off topic chat forum.

mfceiling

crockholm wrote: »

Sorry to hear that,old habits seem to die hard...this site needs a builders off topic chat forum.

I just vent the anger at the wife!!

crockholm

mfceiling wrote: »

I just vent the anger at the wife!!

Don't forget about the new dog either:P

rustedtrumpet

Always trust a tradesmen, Never trust a Garda

tommykeane45

its not just tradesmen, what about all upstanding solicitors ,who are serving time for robbing there clients

tommykeane45

hire cheapest expect top quality then pay twice ,what u expect ? i charge highest prices people dont like ,but thats ok il be back fix problems but now costs double ,its human nature go cheapest price,but dont cry later

tommykeane45

20 years building best carpenter i met in 20 years never served his time ,a carpenter a man who works with timber its not rocket science ,any fool can serve his time to a fool also call himself a carpenter ,papers mean nothing

Santa Cruz

mikemac1 wrote: »

Too many no show tradesmen out there

Every one of them has a mobile so why they can't be call?

I booked a half day annual leave, my tradesman for 2pm was a no show and when I finally got him on the phone at 7pm he turned it around as if I was being unreasonable and awkward

I hear them crying on Joe Duffy show about no work but many it seems can't be arsed unless you are a big job

I had that experience so I got a pal to make an appointment with the tradesman for another day at a bogey address. We sat in the car laughing as he came and was banging on the doors and looking in the windows. When he contacted me with a quote for my job I told him that I had got a few more competitive quotes. These little things keep me sane

hedzball

Some of the comments on this thread are hilarious.

I'm a tradesman and an engineer. I got enough points in my leaving to do alot more than most people but picked a trade due to my love of working with my hands.

Can you trust a tradesman .. Well we don't trust people..

I charge what I am worth. I am up the walls.. Up the walls dealing with stupid ***** who haven't a clue.. People who think because we're in a recession things will be done for nothing and we should be thankful for the work.. I turn down jobs left and right and pass them onto friends who in turn pass on others..

Your tone is very important.. If you come across as a **** you will be treated as one. We're not the knuckle dragging breakfast roll eating lack of english speaking buffoons so of you have portrayed us as.. I go out of my way to look after genuine people .

As for someone not turning up at a certain time, did he give you a proper explanation? booking a false call in Santa cruz? You're a worthless piece of shiote.

I have been caught on many a job where I have been asked to come out at to see something at 2pm... If the job I am turns against me.. should I walk away from say fixing a persons heating in the middle of winter just so I can go look at someones ****ing garden lights or wiring up a cooker?

Pack of self contained ignorant ****s

'hdz

Pumpkinseeds

I had a guy give me an estimate to build about 1 and a half metres of wall, nothing fancy, just standard breeze blocks. It would only be about 6 foot high, and I needed a new gate hung. The guy quoted me a grand. He could fcuk right off with that.

blacklilly

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I had a guy give me an estimate to build about 1 and a half metres of wall, nothing fancy, just standard breeze blocks. It would only be about 6 foot high, and I needed a new gate hung. The guy quoted me a grand. He could fcuk right off with that.

Some tradesmen price themselves out of a job because they are just not interested it. Their lack of interest can be down to many things.....not liking the client, a job they know will be a pain in the bum or perhaps they have other work on that will generate more money for them.

There are many talented tradesmen out their, the recession actually did this country a good turn in that many of the dodgy tradesmen are no longer around.

Aidric

It's pretty simple really. If you go for a quick fix you run the risk of getting burned.

Play it safe and go with someone who comes with good recommendations, preferably from family members.

Irish Steve

Coming into AH and commenting about tradesmen is pointless , go speak to RGI, RECI , ECCSA , SIMI or give a visit to a solicitor.

Yeah right. Some of them, along with the Private Security agency or whatever they are called are not going to do anything I would trust, they can't throw the bad eggs out of their own basket, so the cowboys are still there.

The people I feel sorry for are my kids, they have no choice but to get "registered" tradesmen in to do just about anything other than fart. Over 40 some odd years, I had to get up to speed on a whole range of skills that are now deemed to be illegal for me to touch, and if I had to pay for some of those skills now, I couldn't afford to.

In the same vein, my experience of "tradesmen" in this country has been considerably less than good, the number of times I've ended up having to sort out the mess left by a supposed tradesman is way too high, things like a power cable cut by a kitchen fitter, a heating system not completed by an electrician because he couldn't read a circuit diagram, a heating system that didn't work because the pump was in the wrong line, lights that didn't work because the electrician didn't know how to put intermediate switches into the system, and I can think of plenty more. A shower replaced because the tradesman couldn't fit new brushes to the pump is another recent one, the brushes are €21, the new shower would have been nearly €300.

Then there are the other "tradesmen", solicitors, architects, accountants, bankers, the list is endless.

Bottom line?

I have worked with and would trust a few tradesmen, but my experience of way too many has just been so bad, I now find it very hard to trust many of them, and the more pieces of paper they brandish, the less inclined I am to trust them, because in a lot of cases, the piece of paper is all it is, there's no substance or experience to back it up. Safe Pass is probably the worst, in my eyes, most safe pass courses are little more than making sure that the applicant knows how to lace up steel toe cap boots, which way round the ear defenders go, and how to leave the chemical bog in a fit state for the next person to use. We've seen the nonsense behind some of the FAS courses, people weren't allowed to fail, but was the pass really worth the paper it is printed on? Bluntly, in a lot more cases than we want to know about the answer to that is a resounding NO.

From a legal point of view, I'm not meant to do a lot of things any more. Will I get a "tradesman" to do some of those jobs? Will I hell, simply because my previous experience of too many of those "tradesmen" is that I will end up making good on what they have not done right, and yet have been paid for, so with a very few exceptions, I am better to do the job myself in the first place, and know that it's been done correctly.

I put a complete natural gas system into a self build house renovation in the UK over 40 years ago, and also wired it and plumbed it. The work was inspected by the relevant companies, and connected, and we lived in that house for close on 20 years, and didn't have any issues with either gas or electric worth talking about beyond routine maintenance.

I've installed a complete 3 phase autostart standby generator here, with a 16 KVA single phase uninterruptible power supply, and ESB passed it, and I installed the Calor gas system in this house over 20 years ago.

10 years ago, I had to completely refurbish the oil heating boiler after a massive flood, and it all still works, without issues, and I've done other work over the years, without issues.

Now, I'm deemed a criminal if I change a 13 A socket in my kitchen, or fit a new battery in an alarm sensor for my daughter. I'm deemed to be incompetent to change a circuit breaker in a panel, or to install a new external security light. Really? How did I manage to survive for the last 60 something years without killing myself? Was it just luck, or did I make sure I knew what I was doing before I started the job? Has the education system become so result oriented that the learning of practical skills has become so neglected that people really don't know or understand basics like how a house needs to be maintained, so we MUST use specialists to do what would have been regarded as basic life skills? If it really has got that bad, then our educators have a lot to answer for, and the education system really is no longer fit for purpose.

Maybe if the trades bodies got rid of the bad apples, and there are way too many bad apples that are untouched, we wouldn't now be in the crazy situation where the government have ended up legislating to force people to use tradesmen to do certain jobs.

There are good tradespeople out there, and a lot of them no longer advertise, they don't need to, but some of them, especially in the electrical area, are now being put out of business by the latest changes, as it's just too darn expensive for them to register for all the bullcr@p that has been forced on to them by the regulatory bodies. Same is true for alarm and CCTV systems, the cost of being legal there is out of all proportion to the earning potential for a sole trader, so they are being forced underground or out of business by the system that is supposed to protect the end user.

How long will it be before we see much stronger regulation of solar panels, and other green heatings systems, and wind generators, and insulation systems, simply because there are unscrupulous people with (launderable) money and no knowledge who jump on to a band waggon in the knowledge that they will find it easy to make a killing from end users that don't know or understand the technology, and those same people will then move on to the next "HOT" money spinner before too many people find them out. It happened with Citizens band radio, and double glazing (to name 2) and it will happen again.

There is no way that constantly increasing the number of regulators will solve that, our success levels with regulating things like banks, that don't actually represent a tangible threat to life and limb like gas and electricity do, makes our failures in that area very worrying.

aujopimur

I spent over 40yrs working in peoples houses, I came across a few customers who could'nt be trusted.

.jacksparrow.

Well said Steve.

Rgi is the latest thing cowboys are jumping on.12 day course and they can work on gas installations etc, boilers which are potential bombs in the wrong hands.

Only a matter of time before something serious happens.

The saying goes, it takes someone to die for before people take notice but by then it's too late.