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Dash cam saves your ass (no Roundabout stuff please :)

Mycroft H

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRC7RO2tOJQ

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dantastic

bear1 wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that when you start to lose control over the snow, the best thing to do is floor it?

Depress the clutch, steer and aim for something cheap.

josip

dantastic wrote: »

Depress the clutch, steer and aim for something cheap.

And just before impact take your hands off the wheel

bear1

.... blindfold yourself and light a cigarette

josip

bear1 wrote: »

.... blindfold yourself and light a cigarette

might be easier to light the cigarette first then blindfold yourself...

Kenny Logins

bear1 wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that when you start to lose control over the snow, the best thing to do is floor it?

Just keep the wheels pointed at what you want to hit.

bear1

josip wrote: »

might be easier to light the cigarette first then blindfold yourself...

I enjoy a challenge

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Just keep the wheels pointed at what you want to hit.

Enda Kenny?

Spook_ie

Watching those Russian snow dashcams We NEED snow here to get some crazy Irish ones

rizzodun

Spook_ie wrote: »

Watching those Russian snow dashcams We NEED snow here to get some crazy Irish ones

We don't need snow, just a touch of ice, the majority of people in Ireland think that if they have four wheel drive they're unstoppable on any slippery surface.

dr.fuzzenstein

rizzodun wrote: »

We don't need snow, just a touch of ice, the majority of people in Ireland think that if they have four wheel drive they're unstoppable on any slippery surface.

No, that's a tiny minority.
The vast majority of people slow down to 25 km/h as soon as they hear a snowflake has been sighted with a 100 mile radius.

Mycroft H

rizzodun wrote: »

We don't need snow, just a touch of ice, the majority of people in Ireland think that if they have four wheel drive they're unstoppable on any slippery surface.

Four wheel drive and M+S tyres help but you're not unstoppable. Standard jeep isn't much better than a car in icy conditions but far better in the snow.

rizzodun

Mycroft H wrote: »

Four wheel drive and M+S tyres help but you're not unstoppable. Standard jeep isn't much better than a car in icy conditions but far better in the snow.

Oh I know, now can we tell everyone else that? :pac:

More here, the crash at 1.42 seems to be caught from the other car at 5.54

Dingatron

Happy Christmas all. Here's a guy on a bike getting into the festive spirit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byvvJZ-n72w

sogood

ofcork

He pulled in quickly maybe got a fright!

sogood

I'd say so. Doesn't quite come across, but the other car really had to stick it to the road and locked up its' front wheels.

coolisin

How far is the Audi braking for!
That could've being a bad slap.

lau1247

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

The vast majority of people slow down to 25 km/h as soon as they hear a snowflake has been sighted with a 100 mile radius.

They must have learnt from the way the russians drive from all of these videos :P:pac:

CramCycle

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

No, that's a tiny minority.
The vast majority of people slow down to 25 km/h as soon as they hear a snowflake has been sighted with a 100 mile radius.

Try driving when it rains, apparently we have never seen rain in Ireland and that is why cars on the M50 take a flying V approach accross the three lanes causing tailbacks before the ground is technically damp.

sebastianlieken

rizzodun wrote: »

We don't need snow, just a touch of ice, the majority of people in Ireland think that if they have four wheel drive they're unstoppable on any slippery surface.

Yes yes yes (see below, your point is proven)

Mycroft H wrote: »

Four wheel drive and M+S tyres help but you're not unstoppable. Standard jeep isn't much better than a car in icy conditions but far better in the snow.

NO NO NO!!! :mad:

Stop perpetuating this rubbish!

It doesn't matter if you have 4wd, you are NO better off on ice than a (front wheel) 2wd! ice is ice is ice!! It makes literally no difference how many wheels you can send power to in icy conditions. you are not above the laws of physics! You are JUST as likely to get caught out by an icy patch on the road no matter whether you're 2wd or 4wd.

The difference comes in the mechanics of how that 2wd or 4wd system will react and if I were to choose between a 4wd and a front wheel drive... give me the front wheel drive any day! At least you have a chance in catching the rear end if it goes! Additionally, 4wd vehicals (mostly jeeps) tend to be heavier than 2wd vehicals, meaning they have much more momentum at any given speed; introduce ice into the equation and you're going to have a much harder time keeping a jeep under control in a bend. Also remember that braking force is relatively equal regardless of your drive configuration, therefore a 2wd car will generally stop better than a 4wd car on ice (given the momentum difference)

Sorry for the rant but I really want to get this idea out of peoples heads that 4wd makes you better off in icy conditions. it doesn't. it actually makes you worse off!

Snow is a totally different animal, and yes 4wd wins that game hands down. but ice is

PS, @ Mycroft : sorry if that's what you meant in your post saying that you're not much better off, I just wanted to clarify that you are no better off, at all - and that if you're driving a jeep you have to be even more careful.

Taylor365

CramCycle wrote: »

Try driving when it rains, apparently we have never seen rain in Ireland and that is why cars on the M50 take a flying V approach accross the three lanes causing tailbacks before the ground is technically damp.

Well the weekend just gone i nearly took off with the howling wind (and rain) going across the m50. Don't know if it was the bonnet scoop that gave me extra hassle but had to slow to a creep while others were bombing it down the overtaking lane.

People aren't as cautious as they're made out to be.

Kenny Logins

coolisin wrote: »

How far is the Audi braking for!
That could've being a bad slap.

Yeah, WTF was that all about. Does that driver even have a licence?

dr.fuzzenstein

sebastianlieken wrote: »

Yes yes yes (see below, your point is proven)

NO NO NO!!! :mad:

Stop perpetuating this rubbish!

It doesn't matter if you have 4wd, you are NO better off on ice than a (front wheel) 2wd! ice is ice is ice!! It makes literally no difference how many wheels you can send power to in icy conditions. you are not above the laws of physics! You are JUST as likely to get caught out by an icy patch on the road no matter whether you're 2wd or 4wd.

The difference comes in the mechanics of how that 2wd or 4wd system will react and if I were to choose between a 4wd and a front wheel drive... give me the front wheel drive any day! At least you have a chance in catching the rear end if it goes! Additionally, 4wd vehicals (mostly jeeps) tend to be heavier than 2wd vehicals, meaning they have much more momentum at any given speed; introduce ice into the equation and you're going to have a much harder time keeping a jeep under control in a bend. Also remember that braking force is relatively equal regardless of your drive configuration, therefore a 2wd car will generally stop better than a 4wd car on ice (given the momentum difference)

Sorry for the rant but I really want to get this idea out of peoples heads that 4wd makes you better off in icy conditions. it doesn't. it actually makes you worse off!

Snow is a totally different animal, and yes 4wd wins that game hands down. but ice is

PS, @ Mycroft : sorry if that's what you meant in your post saying that you're not much better off, I just wanted to clarify that you are no better off, at all - and that if you're driving a jeep you have to be even more careful.

Gimme 4WD and FWD over RWD any day.
And without the right tires none are worth a sh*te.

sebastianlieken

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Gimme 4WD and FWD over RWD any day.
And without the right tires none are worth a sh*te.

ah yeah, sure that's why I specified front wheel 2wd. rwd is rubbish on ice and snow. No hope in a rwd.

I was on an outdoor go-kart track with a few experienced rally drivers 2 years ago during some really icy winter weather and a hail shower. Not one of us (out of 16 drivers) made it around the first corner without spinning.

We even went out in 4 heats of 4 so the latter groups even knew what to expect in said corner.
Rear wheel drive + slick tires + Icy rubber coated track = hilariously disasterous. :pac:

Tea drinker

Taylor365 wrote: »

I'd say focus more on steering than anything else. Hitting the break or flooring it wont do much in a spin.

heh heh all obviously wrong.

^This man has done it very well ;-)

dr.fuzzenstein

Had my own experience this morning.
Drove at quite slow speeds into a snow-covered corner, turned the wheel and ploughed straight on.
In them olden days I would have stepped on the clutch (because even engine braking in snow can cause your wheels to slip and you to lose control) and stayed as far away from the brake as possible, but in this case I relied on the ABS, stepped on the brake, yanked the wheel and prayed.
Just before I hit the verge, the wheels gripped and the car made the turn, phew!
Brown trouser moment.
Flooring it would have resulted in twisted metal.

scotchy

sebastianlieken wrote: »

Yes yes yes (see below, your point is proven)

NO NO NO!!! :mad:

Stop perpetuating this rubbish!

It doesn't matter if you have 4wd, you are NO better off on ice than a (front wheel) 2wd! ice is ice is ice!! It makes literally no difference how many wheels you can send power to in icy conditions. you are not above the laws of physics! You are JUST as likely to get caught out by an icy patch on the road no matter whether you're 2wd or 4wd.

The difference comes in the mechanics of how that 2wd or 4wd system will react and if I were to choose between a 4wd and a front wheel drive... give me the front wheel drive any day! At least you have a chance in catching the rear end if it goes! Additionally, 4wd vehicals (mostly jeeps) tend to be heavier than 2wd vehicals, meaning they have much more momentum at any given speed; introduce ice into the equation and you're going to have a much harder time keeping a jeep under control in a bend. Also remember that braking force is relatively equal regardless of your drive configuration, therefore a 2wd car will generally stop better than a 4wd car on ice (given the momentum difference)

Sorry for the rant but I really want to get this idea out of peoples heads that 4wd makes you better off in icy conditions. it doesn't. it actually makes you worse off!

Snow is a totally different animal, and yes 4wd wins that game hands down. but ice is

PS, @ Mycroft : sorry if that's what you meant in your post saying that you're not much better off, I just wanted to clarify that you are no better off, at all - and that if you're driving a jeep you have to be even more careful.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

4wd makes a huge difference on icy roads, however you still have to be very careful and it can give you a huge false sense of security.

.

.

stoneill

sebastianlieken wrote: »

Yes yes yes (see below, your point is proven)

NO NO NO!!! :mad:

Stop perpetuating this rubbish!

It doesn't matter if you have 4wd, you are NO better off on ice than a (front wheel) 2wd! ice is ice is ice!! It makes literally no difference how many wheels you can send power to in icy conditions. you are not above the laws of physics! You are JUST as likely to get caught out by an icy patch on the road no matter whether you're 2wd or 4wd.

Indeed - all cars are capable of driving in snow and ice if driven correctly, however Ireland does not have driver training for these conditions the way they do in Scandinavian countries.

Sam Russell

stoneill wrote: »

Indeed - all cars are capable of driving in snow and ice if driven correctly, however Ireland does not have driver training for these conditions the way they do in Scandinavian countries.[/QUOTE

........... or Russia.

Joking aside, driving on ice depends on the temperature of the ice. If it is below -7 deg c, then it is not that difficult to get a grip. However, between 0 and -7, the ice melts under the weight of the vehicle giving a wet surface under the tyres giving a nice slippery surface on which grip is between nothing and very little. If you are on that type of ice, then brakes are not your friend, as praying is probably more useful. Steer gently, and slow down, but not less than 5 mph or you cannot steer. On ice, think you have no brakes and little steering.

sebastianlieken

scotchy wrote: »

Sorry, but you're wrong.

4wd makes a huge difference on icy roads, however you still have to be very careful and it can give you a huge false sense of security.

.

No idea why you apologised, and I don't want to start a heated debate on it; but i'm not wrong. I just want 4x4 drivers to get it in their heads that when it comes to ice, you are not better off and hence should not be driving faster than other people on the road with the "i'm in a 4wd, i'll be fine" mentality.

I'll begin by backing up my argument with the following:
My dad was a logistics officer and advanced driving instructor for the Belgian army based in Germany; I live beside mount leinster, we get copious amounts of snow and ice every winter, we've gone through plenty of jeeps, front wheel drive cars, and high powered rear wheel drive cars during my driving life and i've learnt to drive in adverse weather conditions from him. A good few of my mates are also rally drivers who share the same sentiments as I do regarding driving in icy conditions. I'm also a mechanical engineer so I take alot of interest in understanding the dynamics and mechanics of systems like this simply because I find them interesting. Additionally, if you search online for arguments concerning 2wd vs 4wd on ice, you'll see the evidence yourself from other sources.

Ice on a road lowers your coefficient of static and dynamic friction to essentially zero, this means you lose the traction your wheel has on the ground. Now that you've lost the traction to the ground, it doesn't matter whether or not you can send power to that wheel, the wheel will simply spin.

The only, and I really mean the ONLY benefit 4wd or awd provides is where you need to set off from a stand still BUT;

Once moving, the physics for all vehicles are equal. 1WD, 2WD, 4WD, 6WD etc.
All motor vehicles need traction for safe steering - 4WD/AWD does not provide extra traction for steering.
All cars need traction for safe braking - 4WD/AWD does not provide extra traction for braking.

The major drawback of 4wd (jeeps) which I will highlight once again is momentum. Momentum is an absolute killer on icy roads, It massively affects your cornering capability, lateral control, and braking distance.

Another drawback of 4wd systems is how their differentials work and how power is allocated to the front wheels. You get a condition called 'binding' when you turn the steering wheel of a 4wd; the inside wheel and the outside wheel want to turn at the same RPM, but obviously the outside wheel is covering more distance than the inside - you can really feel this resistance in the steering wheel when trying to drive, it's horrible and that's why it's recommended you only drive in 4wd mode at low speeds. On dry tarmac this 'binding' effect can cause damage to your drive system, on ice it can cause you to lose grip in a bend.

My final point about jeeps in icy conditions (which I will reiterate for emphasis) is human mentality; arrogance; ignorance; the 4wd god complex ... call it what you will. When i'm at home during the winter, I see lots of vehicles which have careened off the road which have been left abandoned to be rescued - most of them, jeeps.

Look, i'm not the foremost expert on driving on icy roads, I have a hell of alot to learn still. What I can say though is that i've driven in heavy ice and snow with lots of different vehicles, I've been in cars on ice and snow with pro rally drivers, and i've gotten pretty good instruction from my dad. The internet is also my friend to research these things.

So rather than just saying "nahhh, i'm right, you're wrong" i've spent a couple of minutes trying to explain myself coherently in order to try get it in everyones heads that 4WD is not going to save your ass when you hit ice.

soccerc