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Laws Question? Ask here!

Alan_007_

Just wondering.If the ball is on the ground and you kick it over do you get the 3 points or is it play on?

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Losty Dublin

armchaircoach wrote: »

Having watched end on Rugby in the rds for a few years its not at all uncommon to see wingers loitering on or over the touchline when a set piece/penalty is being readied. Standing off the pitch, pretending to tie shoelaces, trying not to be noticed while waiting for a crossfield kick. Are these guys in beach of the laws if they step off the pitch?

You may find that a player is out of the playing area for a moment or two or if play has stopped but not while play continues. A player may well nip out of play whilst running to get to the ball but the laws relating to offside, grounding and touch still apply to them. When play has stopped it is a different matter altogether.

Also, we need to allow that materiality also comes into play at an infringement. Joining and leaving the field of play in a tactical attempt is approaching foul play and will be punished as required.

Swiwi.

Sorry if this has been asked before, but if a team kicks the ball, and players are in front of the ball, but the ball goes into touch, can the formerly offside players move towards the lineout (and possibly prevent a quick throw) or do they need to wait until put back onside?

Taco Corp

Swiwi. wrote: »

Sorry if this has been asked before, but if a team kicks the ball, and players are in front of the ball, but the ball goes into touch, can the formerly offside players move towards the lineout (and possibly prevent a quick throw) or do they need to wait until put back onside?

interesting one. I'd imagine they'd still be considered offside and therefore can't interfere with play unless put back onside. open to correction though

FrPhelimYoung

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

interesting one. I'd imagine they'd still be considered offside and therefore can't interfere with play unless put back onside. open to correction though

Ball is out of play. No offside for those in front of the kicker. The quick Lineout in effect will be restarting play from the "set piece".

FrPhelimYoung

At least I hope I'm right. It's what I've told a few of the fatties I coach.

Taco Corp

FrPhelimYoung wrote: »

Ball is out of play. No offside for those in front of the kicker. The quick Lineout in effect will be restarting play from the "set piece".

I would have thought it fell under the loitering law as the offside player is getting the advantage of preventing a quick throw.

Steve Perchance

Usually at least one player is chasing from an onside position in case touch isn't made though - he puts the fatties back onside, they can stop the quick lineout, no problems

Losty Dublin

FrPhelimYoung wrote: »

Ball is out of play. No offside for those in front of the kicker. The quick Lineout in effect will be restarting play from the "set piece".

A quick line out still has offside lines applicable to it, Father; the fact that it's taken quick won't change this fact. If the players are in an offside position at the commencement of the line out then they still need to retreat until they are back onside. Provided they don't interfere with the quick line out, aren't still offside and/or loitering with intent then they should be fine.

Just for the crack, have a look at this quick line out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bxGZHpcmAo

Journeyman_1

That was amazing, very clever from trinh-duc.

BeardySi

Bloody hell, that was quick thinking!

.ak

That's what most wingers try and do, it's just SF were completely caught nap with the whole team trying to chase.

shoutman

I was running line for a J4 match recently (was supporting one of the teams, i'm not trained up.)

Player had one foot in touch and kicked the ball which was still in play. I put the flag up and signalled that he was in touch and gave a throw in to the opposition.

The ref told me I was incorrect but went with my decision - I'm confused!

locum-motion

shoutman wrote: »

I was running line for a J4 match recently (was supporting one of the teams, i'm not trained up.)

Player had one foot in touch and kicked the ball which was still in play. I put the flag up and signalled that he was in touch and gave a throw in to the opposition.

The ref told me I was incorrect but went with my decision - I'm confused!

You can't 'un-blow' a whistle.
You can't 'un-raise' a flag.
Even if the referee/touch judge immediately realises that they blew/signalled in error, play has to stop.
You can't say "Oh, I'm sorry. Ignore that whistle/signal and play on." If you did, it would be unfair to any player who heard/saw the signal and stopped what they were doing.

That said, if a player who had a foot in touch - or even if it was just his toe touching the line - made contact with the ball, then you were correct to signal a lineout. This applies even if the ball itself wasn't within a yard of the line. (Or, in the case of the player being Devin Toner, seventeen yards!)

Philo Beddoe

shoutman wrote: »

I was running line for a J4 match recently (was supporting one of the teams, i'm not trained up.)

Player had one foot in touch and kicked the ball which was still in play. I put the flag up and signalled that he was in touch and gave a throw in to the opposition.

The ref told me I was incorrect but went with my decision - I'm confused!

You mean he had one foot in touch and kicked a loose ball with the other? If that was the case then I'd think it was something similar to a player with a foot in touch (or indeed standing in touch) catching a ball kicked to him by the opposition - line-out to his team.

cython

shoutman wrote: »

I was running line for a J4 match recently (was supporting one of the teams, i'm not trained up.)

Player had one foot in touch and kicked the ball which was still in play. I put the flag up and signalled that he was in touch and gave a throw in to the opposition.

The ref told me I was incorrect but went with my decision - I'm confused!

If the player had a foot in touch and kicked the ball, then the ball ought to be regarded as being in touch as well. However, who last touched the ball before the player with a foot in touch? If it was his own team, then it's a line out to the opposition, but if the ball was loose from the other team (e.g. following a grubber or something) then it is still a line out,but to the player's own team.

Losty Dublin

locum-motion wrote: »

You can't 'un-blow' a whistle.
You can't 'un-raise' a flag.
Even if the referee/touch judge immediately realises that they blew/signalled in error, play has to stop.
You can't say "Oh, I'm sorry. Ignore that whistle/signal and play on." If you did, it would be unfair to any player who heard/saw the signal and stopped what they were doing.

That said, if a player who had a foot in touch - or even if it was just his toe touching the line - made contact with the ball, then you were correct to signal a lineout. This applies even if the ball itself wasn't within a yard of the line. (Or, in the case of the player being Devin Toner, seventeen yards!)

Referees may and occasionally will overrule a touch judges call. In practice it would need to be a blatantly wrong call for him to do so it almost never happens; if anything the referee will give them every benefit of the doubt, even if they err on a call.

As for un-blowing, well..... :pac:

locum-motion

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Referees may and occasionally will overrule a touch judges call. In practice it would need to be a blatantly wrong call for him to do so it almost never happens; if anything the referee will give them every benefit of the doubt, even if they err on a call.

As for un-blowing, well..... :pac:

As to your first paragraph: a referee absolutely may overrule a touch judge/assistant referee, but if they were to do so it would be "No, it's a white throw, not a black throw." It would NOT be "Play on". Or, at least, it shouldn't be.

As to your second paragraph: Sorry, but do you mean to imply that you can un-blow a whistle?

Shelflife

If the ball was in play and the player kicked it while he was in touch its play on as he did not take possession of the ball.

I would have clarified this with the touch judge and awarded a scrum to the kickers team .

DDC1990

I'd disagree, I'd rule that as soon as the player touches the ball, with his foot in touch the ball has then theoretically gone out of play.

Just like catching the ball with your foot over the line.

If team A kicked/touched the ball last I would give a lineout to team B.

errlloyd

DDC1990 wrote: »

I'd disagree, I'd rule that as soon as the player touches the ball, with his foot in touch the ball has then theoretically gone out of play.
.

This is true. Happened to Ojo (I thinj) for London Irish a good few seasons back.

rje66

DDC1990 wrote: »

I'd disagree, I'd rule that as soon as the player touches the ball, with his foot in touch the ball has then theoretically gone out of play.

Just like catching the ball with your foot over the line.

If team A kicked/touched the ball last I would give a lineout to team B.

Law 19 Touch Definition
A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

.ak

rje66 wrote: »

Law 19 Touch Definition
A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

That's very interesting.

So technically I could stand OUT of touch, and knock the ball back into touch so long as the ball doesn't cross the line.

... Devin Toner should be standing on the line for penalties. :P

locum-motion

rje66 wrote: »

Law 19 Touch Definition
A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

So, according to the above, what I said (reproduced below) is wrong. I stand corrected. Thank you.

locum-motion wrote: »

...

That said, if a player who had a foot in touch - or even if it was just his toe touching the line - made contact with the ball, then you were correct to signal a lineout. This applies even if the ball itself wasn't within a yard of the line. (Or, in the case of the player being Devin Toner, seventeen yards!)

rje66

.ak wrote: »

That's very interesting.

So technically I could stand OUT of touch, and knock the ball back into touch so long as the ball doesn't cross the line.

... Devin Toner should be standing on the line for penalties. :P

Yes .touch laws in union are overly complicated and at times confusing and contradictory. A few simple law changes , player past plane of touch touches ball anywhere its out. Ball past plane of touch its out(EXCEPTwhen wind blows it back in)

sydthebeat

rje66 wrote: »

Yes .touch laws in union are overly complicated and at times confusing and contradictory. A few simple law changes , player past plane of touch touches ball anywhere its out. Ball past plane of touch its out(EXCEPTwhen wind blows it back in)

are you suggesting that? nah, too much fun watching players jump to try to salvage penalty kicks

redmca2

Question on the advantage rule:

Scenario 1:
A player knocks the ball on, the opposition have advantage and from there they go on to score a try.

Scenario 2:
In a HC match today (Harlequins v Racing I think), an attacker knocked the ball on close to the try line, the ball crossed the line and was touched down by a defender. The ref awarded a 5 metre scrum to the defending team, but why did he not award a 22 drop out? (I was told by a ref that to award a 22 in such an instance was too much of an advantage to give. )

Can anyone explain the logic in this.

Shelflife

Because there is a specific law that deals with this scenario 22.13, they could if they wanted run the ball but to ground it immediately means they have effectively declined advantage.

locum-motion

22.13 says (my emphasis)

If an attacking player commits an infringement in in-goal, for which the sanction is a scrum, for example, a knock-on, play is restarted with a 5-metre scrum. The scrum is formed in line with the place of the infringement and the defending team throws in the ball.

The questioner specifically said that the ball crossed the line after the KO, so therefore 22.13 cannot apply.

Shelflife

My understanding of the law is that if it ends up in the end goal, then that law applies.

Making a ball dead isn't playing advantage.

locum-motion

Shelflife wrote: »

My understanding of the law is that if it ends up in the end goal, then that law applies.

Making a ball dead isn't playing advantage.

I quoted what the actual wording of the law says. The law is quite clear, and it cannot apply to infringements that occur anywhere except in the in-goal area.

I don't think it really matters what your "understanding of the law" is!