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Should Irish remain a compulsory Leaving Cert subject?

Foxhound38

Is it a living language and an aspect of our cultural heritage too important to be optional in our nation's schools, or is it a largely dead language kept on life support artificially? Does the compulsory nature of it breed more resentment than respect? Would it survive being taken off the compulsory subjects list in the final two years of schooling, and if not does that not say something profound about the vulnerability of the language (in that having it optional for 2 years of a 12 year programme could fatally expose it)?

Personally, I think we need to put more emphasis on teaching languages that more people actually speak. Teaching Mandarin Chinese to kids from primary school level could be very useful to us economically in years to come, and we could be unique to Europe in that sense. Wouldn't like to see the old language disappear all the same - to the extent that I'd leave it compulsory for till the end of the JC, but I don't see a point in forcing it down students necks in their final, very stressful 2 years.

What is the AH consensus on this one?

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Davidius

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily teach it in primary school either - I'd go with a modern European language or Mandarin Chinese from age 5, then start teaching Irish at around 5th class-1st year age through until JC/TY, teaching it in a similar way to how modern European languages are taught. Definitely not compulsory for LC.

How realistic is it to teach Chinese to primary school children in terms of logistics, and what returns would you be looking at realistically? I'm not of the school of thought that education should be all about employment/economic prospects, but I don't see any meaningful returns in teaching such foreign languages to children. Realistically how many children will use them enough to retain them, and how many will actually need them?

I learned French for five years and I cannot remember much of it. Granted I was never particularly good at it, but it did surpass my Irish at one stage. Whatever French I had is pretty much long gone now however because I had no cause to use it despite it being a significant language.

moc moc a moc wrote: »

For the sake of argument:

The vast majority of the countries of the Americas don't speak their own 'native' language, and the same goes for many African countries. The majority of Arabic countries speak Arabic (albeit regional dialects). Belgium, Austria, Andorra, Monaco and Switzerland don't have their own languages either, as far as I know. I don't get the impression a huge number of Scots speak Scots Gaelic. Most non-aboriginal Australians and New Zealanders speak only English.

We're hardly alone.

For the sake of argument: From an ethnic point of view many of the peoples of America are partially descended from colonisers and in a sense do speak their ancestral language. Anglo-Saxon varieties have existed in lowland Scotland for a very long time and many of them see "Scots" as the native tongue. In Ireland most people regard themselves as mainly the descendants of ethnic Gaels and that we mostly speak a foreign language is a bit unusual. We are not alone either way, Belarussian is a minority language in Belarus.

Cosmicfox

Optional, that way people who do have a real interest in it will benefit from smaller class sizes and people with no interest in it can choose another subject they'd prefer instead.

I can't think of any reason whatsoever to keep it compulsory, even if you do revamp the course.

Carlos Orange

Davidius wrote: »

In Ireland most people regard themselves as mainly the descendants of ethnic Gaels and that we mostly speak a foreign language is a bit unusual.

Most people probably give no thought to their ethnic origin. That is why we don't have Viking street gangs fighting with Norman street gangs or people agitating to have Flemish made mandatory in school.

LordSutch

Stained Class wrote: »

Oh for fooks sake.

Just lance this boil on the arse of our educational system.

Millions (of mine & thousands of others money)spent & for what???????

Make it optional from day 1 of your child's education.

See what would happen.

We wouldn't be having this discussion now.

Just shoot this limping dog in head now & put it out of it's misery FFS!

Well I wouldn't put it out of its misery, but I would like it to be optional for leaving cert students. Sadly, any change to the current compulsory set up is never going to happen as long as those who want to maintain Irish as compulsory for all, presumably that at some stage in the distant future the language will be revived enough to be spoken by more people?

see post#56.

Randy Shafter

Make Irish optional. Those who want to learn it will keep it on, those who don't want to learn it won't. Personally I think there should be an emphasis on European languages such as German, French and Spanish.

Spanish would be particularly useful due to it being spoken in quite a few places.

However if Irish is to be kept alive, i think the whole way it's thought in school and the curriculum etc. needs to be changed to make it more appealing to students.

ballsymchugh

Deleted User wrote: »

It should be optional in second level and should not form any prerequisite in 3rd level.
At least 1 language other than English should be mandatory in second level.

both irish and english should also be optional for the LC.
have irish language compulsory for the JC and then add literature as a subject for the LC. i think that's in the pipeline anyway.

IvaBigWun wrote: »

A horrible language to learn, especially the tenses.

100% optional

there are 11 irregular verbs in irish, making it one of the easiest languages to learn. it's just a baxtard that those 11 verbs are the ones that are used most often.

as has been said so many times, it's all down to the curriculum.

shruikan2553

Reasons people use to keep it:

Heritage/Culture: We dont have compulsory GAA membership or force everyone to spend 14 years learning tradition Irish music.
Calling it "our native language": When many of us grow up in English speaking homes where all the relatives talk to each other in English and it is the first language we learn and dont have contact with Irish until we start school I will consider English as my native language.
Learning a language is good: Yes it is, but why Irish? If we are learning a language for its benefits there are many other options that would be more suitable.
The language will die if its not compulsory: Then the language is already dead if you need to have it compulsory for it to stay alive.

Dian Cecht

Best way to get all Irish people to learn & use Irish is ...................... ban it

iliketomoveit

I think one of the main problems is that a load of teachers and textbooks have this attitude of "the best way to learn Irish is through Irish", which sounds great in theory, but is painful for the person trying to learn it.

The textbooks usually have f**k all English in them, so trying to figure out what the book is saying takes a long time, with you having to look up every word.

I don't believe that its a matter of people not caring about it, if you looked at your textbook and saw that with a bit of work you could actually become good at it, you would be motivated to learn it, but sadly I think the books just presume that you are almost fluent in the language by the time you get to Leaving Cert.

mikeym

It should be optional and maybe students might actually like the language.

The language shouldnt be forced on kids because they will resent it.

Look at the welsh example people are enthusiastic about learning welsh do you think were like that about our own language.

MRnotlob606

i didn't get along with my irish teacher in secondary ,done foundation for the leaving cert,i do love the language but it should be optional as forcing someone to learn irish because its part of our cultural heritage sounds a bit facist,my friend got an exemption from it even though hes irish and has no learning difficulties,

Anonymagician

I've been "learning" Irish for 12 or 13 odd years and German for 5. I even did Spanish for a measly year and I can just say that I'd be highly more likely to be able to converse with locals if I took a trip to Berlin or Madrid than if I took one to Connemara.

It's the system that's the problem, not the language. We shouldn't have to be "going over" things like tenses that should be natural to us by now. If we spent less time in primary school learning seanfhocals and more time becoming proficient at the language when our brains were easily able to then we would be somewhere completely different.

ComputerKing

Yes it should be compulsory but the course needs to be completely rebuilt. We need to preserve this part of our heritage and as the seanfhocail says Ní tír gan teanga.

astrofool

There's so much reality distortion around Irish, it's hilarious.

It's going to be optional for learning at some stage, it's just a matter of when (in the long term, Ireland unification will probably force the issue).
Going optional won't change anything for people who want to study Irish, it will still get more state support than it should get vs. it's benefit to society, there will still be a 100% state supported industry to work in Irish if people want to do so.
Whatever Government scheme is announced pre-election to improve Irish will fail, again, as they always have done, new schemes will take it's place.
Hopefully the money spent on the Irish Language Commissioner will be redeployed to teaching Irish, rather than buying paper and ink and printing everything twice.
It will retain it's place in the constitution, too hard to get a referendum through to change it, the % of people who understand bunreacht na hEireann will be so low as to render the Irish version useless.
Some people will still want everyone to learn it, but won't succeed in doing so, but will still think of themselves as better because of this.

At worst it will be a slow, drawn out, costly death.
At best, support could be targeted at those who want to use it, and encourage it's use here (particularly as a literary language), and it will live on as a niche, but well liked way of communicating.

roadrunner16

lukesmom wrote: »

Yes I believe to preserve the little heritage we have left, that the Irish language should remain compulsory.

Is that really preserving culture ? forcing people to learn it instead of focusing on something else ? what about studying irish history instead ? ( i always found the history of how English came to be spoken in Ireland to be much more interesting than the Irish language itself ) building a resentment at the expense of a useful skill in later life ?

FunLover18

"It's part of our culture/heritage"; same old same old. It's like a broken record.

LordSutch

FunLover18 wrote: »

Would you have chosen it were it optional? Mandatory Irish for 100% of students on the off chance that even 20% might find it useful in later life is ridiculous.

20% might find it useful? Problem is the other 80% who hate it with a passion! (because of the way its taught).

Make it optional, attract the students who really/naturally want to learn the language, and that way it may regain its standing as a minority language that people actually like. Currently & historically (from the founding of the state) mandatory Irish in school has been a massive disaster, and unti that changes the Irish language will continue to bump along the bottom of the pond, being ignored by most of the Irish population.

Spoken languages in Ireland 2009.

English, Mandarin, Polish, Irish.

FunLover18

LordSutch wrote: »

20% might find it useful? Problem is the other 80% who hate it with a passion! (because of the way its taught).

Make it optional, attract the students who really/naturally want to learn the language and that way it may regain its standing as a minority language that people actually like. Currently & historically (from the founding of the state) mandatory Irish in school has been a massive disaster and unti that changes the Irish language will continue to bump along the bottom of the pond being ignored by most of the Irish population.

Spoken languages in Ireland 2009.

English, Mandarin, Polish, Irish.

God I haven't come across as pro compulsory Irish, have I?

I totally agree. The 80% who don't want to learn the language are dragging the standard down and holding back those who do. If it was made optional and the 20% who loved the language took responsibility for preserving it the standard would go up and in the long run the percentage of those who choose Irish will go up.

irishfeen

For the language to prosper it needs to be optional - we Irish never took to being forced into anything we didn't want to do ...

Huell

Compulsary up to secondary school and optional then. Im doing my leaving cert this year and doing pass, i have always been terrible at languages but fairly good at maths. I feel im wasteing my time this year with irish as my course will be >560 for a language i will never speak or improve on after this year

irishfeen

I posted this a few months back and I still think its the best way forward for the language -

I think a totally new approach should be taken with the Irish language, this is what I would do anyway if I was Minister for Education tomorrow morning;

1. National School should be based almost totally on talking the language with the basics of the written language taught, maybe a breakdown of 70% of time dedicated to children being able to hold a decent conversation (for their level) and understanding what they are saying.

2. During an entrance exams into secondary school, an oral exam should taken with Irish teachers to decide a child's proficiency in the language... if a child is relatively poor at conversing at the language then he/she should be separated and classes should be run throughout 1st year to improve it with the written language being slowly increased before 2nd year. At the end of 3rd year the JC should be focused say 70-30% on talking the language in everyday conversation.

3. After JC, Irish should be dropped as a compulsory subject and those who do higher should be awarded with extra points as with Maths at the moment... During transition year those who choose Irish as a LC subject should be brought for a period of time to the Gaeltacht (say 2 weeks)... not for the language to be bate into them but for them to be immersed into it in everyday talk, activities with the locals and most importantly to have fun with their friends and peers.

4. The leaving should be used to perfect the language in terms of speaking and writing the language with the written language taking precedence in terms of study again say 70-30%... students should be allowed to come up with new innovative ways to show exactly what they can do with the language (along with the set state oral and written exams) ... such as what lurgan did with Avicci's Wake Me Up (combing music or other subjects with the language) , maybe turning great English pieces of literature into Irish... etc... the possibilities are endless and say 15% of final marks should be put aside for students to do what they want with the language.

5. All teachers (Primary/Secondary) teaching the Irish language should as part of college be sent to the Gaeltacht for a year long study in the language, these graduates could also be used for the various activities open to the transition year students visiting.

We need to decide what we want to do. let the language die or re-energise it among the young to ensure it will continue for generations... I think something like above would ensure that it would re-enter the Irish psyche and actually become something that young people would enjoy.

thelad95

I remember my pass Irish class was a joke. It was made up mostly of people who dropped down from higher level in 5th year as they couldn't have been arsed doing higher level. It was a 'smart class', in fact there were three or four future medicine students but the teacher knew none of us gave a flying f*ck about the language and were only doing it because we had to. We spent most of our time doing comprehensions and I'd say we watched 'An Cáca Milis' at least 50 times in two years.

You've got to wonder why nobody in Government would point out how fatally flawed the curriculum is. To have students unable to form a sentence in the future tense after fourteen years of learning a language is pretty incredible.

I fear that even if Irish was made optional for the Leaving Cert that the NUI's and most other colleges would still keep it as an entry requirement.

LordSutch

Several laudable and well thought ideas there in post#83 irishfeen, but the elephant question in the room is "Why haven't those ideas been carried out" in recent decades? I mean its not like anybody is supressing the usage of the language, apart from the Irish population themselves, and this is where the stiffist opposition will come from, specialy with suggestion No:1, where I guess 90% of children will speak English at home only to be met with Irish when they enter through the school doors. This I suspect would be rejected by all & sundry (who are not already involved in Gaelscoils).

I understand your ideas though.

moxin

Simply put, Irish needs to be properly taught like French\German in schools and not just in Irish lang schools. There is a reason why students know foreign languages more than Irish when they leave school at aged 18 even up to semi fluency, its the way Irish is taught is the source of the problem.

walt_white

if us irish were as patriotic as we like to think we are , a hell of a lot more people would speak our native language fluently , the israelis more or less ressurected a dead language when they founded their new state in 1948

im sick of all the b1tching about irish , ive begun learning it again having forgotten whatever i learned in school , most people are simply too lazy to learn gaeilge , no reason we cant be fluent in both english and irish and use both in equal measure

irishfeen

LordSutch wrote: »

Several laudable and well thought ideas there in post#83 irishfeen, but the elephant question in the room is "Why haven't those ideas been carried out" in recent decades? I mean its not like anybody is supressing the usage of the language, apart from the Irish population themselves, and this is where the stiffist opposition will come from, specialy with suggestion No:1 where I guess 90% of children will speak English at home only to be met with Irish when they enter through the school doors. This I suspect would be rejected by all and sundry.

I understand your ideas though.

I actually think its a case that governments are afraid in case they are seen as anti-Irish heritage or something ... they are afraid of causing a stir so let well enough alone because if they tried to end the compulsory nature of the language for LC then there would be huge opposition from a vocal minority. Its a shame though because if we want the language to continue something radical has to be done.

LordSutch

moxin wrote: »

Simply put, Irish needs to be properly taught like French\German in schools and not just in Irish lang schools. There is a reason why students know foreign languages more than Irish when they leave school at aged 18 even up to semi fluency, its the way Irish is taught is the source of the problem.

The 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s . . .

Surely they could have figured out a way to teach Irish properly over all that time?

FunLover18

walt_white wrote: »

if us irish were as patriotic as we like to think we are , a hell of a lot more people would speak our native language fluently , the israelis more or less ressurected a dead language when they founded their new state in 1948

im sick of all the b1tching about irish , ive begun learning it again having forgotten whatever i learned in school , most people are simply too lazy to learn gaeilge , no reason we cant be fluent in both english and irish and use both in equal measure

Since when is learning Irish is the measure of "patriotism" in this country? How dare anyone question my Irishness or my love of my country by my ability to speak Irish. Narrow minded nonsense.

No one is suggesting that people can't be fluent in both languages, what we are suggesting is that compulsory Irish is not the way to achieve this and it hasn't achieved it in over 50 years.

Frank Black

Can speak better Spanish from a couple of months travelling through South America than Irish from over a decade of it being shoved down my throat.
Hopefully some politicians will eventually stand up to the Irish language Nazis and remove the compulsory aspect form our education syllabus.

irishfeen

LordSutch wrote: »

The 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s . . .

Surely they could have figured out a way to teach Irish properly over all that time?

Too much emphasis is put on writing the damn thing down on paper - its easy to see why that doesn't work .... we started listening to the English language the day we were born, slowly beginning to pick it up - we didn't pick up a pencil until we were 4 or 5 ... it needs to be the same with Irish.