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Massaged BER rating. What to do?

GemmaB

Hopefully someone can help me. We are looking at buying a house and the BER is C2 but we believe it to be incorrect. This is important to us as it's the top of our budget and with 2 small kiddies we want a warm house. It is already 22k over the asking and it may be a factor in why it's so popular as it leads prospective buyers to think that there's not much work to be done on it. Having spoken to the assessor who did the BER in our own house, he feels that there is no way it could be more than an E. On his advice, we rang the SEAI who told us that the BER is irrelevant anyway?! He told me to email the "complaint' in to them and it would be looked at within approx. 1 month!! I asked what would happen if we brought in our own BER assessor and the original rating was proved to be incorrect and the answer was "well that would be €300 out of your pocket".

What's the point of having the BER as mandatory if the results can be messed with and there is no one held responsible?

We raised it as a concern with the EA but she was totally dismissive of the concern.

Just wondering what the best course of action is? Is there a way to force an audit on the original assessment? Could we ask our property surveyor to include another BER (covered by vendor) or should we just get him to raise it with the EA if we get to that stage? Whether it's an E or a C2, we still want the house and will just have to dig deeper for insulation work. What's bugging me is that it's possible that had the BER been correct from the start other interested parties may not have been interested (thus pushing up the price)…

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D3PO

tvc15 wrote: »

Don't take it to heart from that particular user, go on this board enough and its easy to see they don't think anyone knows enough to buy a house and all buyers are hysterical maniacs throwing their money away!

Or perhaps just perhaps im on this board enough to just realize that some things posted are just completely off the wall and irrelevant in the scheme of the reason they are posted.

The OP claims they were just having a rant about the BER assessment process and its inconsistencys but that doesn't match their topic title and realistically isn't why they posted they wanted to know about their uniwue circumstance.

But to get back on topic the suggestions to make an offer then drop it after the BER is reassessed have no merit.

Why ? Because a seller is unlikely to provide access to somebody to send in a BER assessor. Why would they ?

Put yourself in their shoes. They have a BER if you were to ask for access to the property to reassess, logically it would only be for one reason to try and reduce your offer that isn't in their best interests at all.

Its one thing to give access to an engineer as that would be expected in a house sale giving access to a BER assessor would not.

The fact is the OP needs to forget about the BER which is not done by a computer thingy as they believed it to but I digress. They are either prepared to pay what it takes to purchase the property or they are not.

By all means calculate in money for a new boiler, insulation , windows etc if they must to get to a figure to offer but expecting a reduce your offer based on the BER rate that just isn't realistic especially on a property that clearly has a high level of interest if its 22k above asking.

Moonbeam

we have a c2 house and an E house both were assessed by assessors coming out and having a look.
The E house was build in the 70s and is a 4 bed semi,the c house was 2005 terraced 2 bed,one is approx twice the size of the other.
The E house is cold and hard to heat,the C2 house once the neghbours switched on their heating ours was warm too,it was so cheap to heat!!

ted1

GemmaB wrote: »

D3PO… We'll have to agree to disagree. The BER is a factor we have considered when deciding on whether to view a house or not. We feel that those with a high BER at the top end of our budget are worth viewing. Those with a low BER at the lower end of our budget are also worth viewing. Would we view & subsequently bid on a BER G house at the top of our budget? No as we couldn't afford to do the work to bring it up to scratch. I don't believe that we are the only people who think this way?

GemmaB, my house has a low rating D or E. It's a 3 bed Semi. out electricity bill is about 130 every 2 month,

We didn't use the gas till late October, so only had standing charges for about 6 months. I reckon we spend 700-800 on gas a year.

so my total energy bill for the year is less than 1,600. An A rating BER will have no effect on our electricity bill.

I spent about €100 on LED's and CFLs. which paid for itself fairly fast.

If we were to spend money on insulation etc, new boiler etc, the payback period would be about 20+years. this si because it would only be applicable to the Gas bill

If the BER is concerning you, ask the current owners for a copy of there latest bills and see what they are.

Moonbeam

we spend more like 200 a month on average on gas and electricity.

collegeme

The BER is a load of crap. Our windows and doors are unbelieveably draughty yet our BER wasnt bad. Its based on general crap like double glazed windows, gfch, open fire etc not taking into account if they are fitted correctly.

Ray Palmer

GemmaB wrote: »

I thought they used a little machiney thing?!

What? Like a magic box? Would you trust an accountant just because he used a calculator?
There are lots of tools that can be used but decisions on outputs and inputs are people. Garbage in garbage out.

L1011

GemmaB wrote: »

I thought they used a little machiney thing?!

Its an extremely basic set of software. Garbage in garbage out. And that's why BER ratings are pretty much entirely garbage - the data asked for makes very little sense in most cases.

makeorbrake

@GemmaB: I agree with D3PO. If you lodged a complaint, as a seller (all other things being equal ..i.e. unless you are clearly paying more than everyone else), I wouldn't go anywhere near you.

If you've spotted that its not what it at first appears, be thankful for that insight and move on. You bid what you believe its worth. If others are prepared to bid more, so be it. Move on to the next prospect - and repeat the process until you end up with something that you are happy with.

GemmaB

Ray Palmer wrote: »

What? Like a magic box? Would you trust an accountant just because he used a calculator?
There are lots of tools that can be used but decisions on outputs and inputs are people. Garbage in garbage out.

Just because my accountant uses a calculator does not mean he's untrustworthy.

All machines are magic boxes. Many gadgets do things faster and more accurately than we can generally do manually.

GemmaB

makeorbrake wrote: »

@GemmaB: I agree with D3PO. If you lodged a complaint, as a seller (all other things being equal ..i.e. unless you are clearly paying more than everyone else), I wouldn't go anywhere near you.

If you've spotted that its not what it at first appears, be thankful for that insight and move on. You bid what you believe its worth. If others are prepared to bid more, so be it. Move on to the next prospect - and repeat the process until you end up with something that you are happy with.

Thank you for taking the time to respond but maybe I have been unclear … let me try again...

1. I understand how to buy a house & how bidding works.

2. I never said that we won't buy the house because of this. I merely wanted to hear other people's thoughts on what to do about a suspicious BER. (The fact that everyone on here believes the BER to be a pile of pants is interesting but still does not answer the question I raised about what to do with a BER that we and another qualified assessor believe to be way off.)

Scartbeg

GemmaB wrote: »

I have never known a BER to be done off the plans? Really? That's crazy!

There is the basic attic insulation as in a small layer of fiberglass but nothing extra if that makes sense?

Preliminary BERs are now mandatory at the planning stage, so yes they are done off plans. Of course this takes no account of eventual workmanship, air -tightness, cold-bridges due to shoddy installation etc.

The BER assessor uses a SEAI provided software package (you can download and use it yourself to get an idea) - it is fairly basic and as they say, garbage in - garbage out. The assessors are instructed to enter worst-case values where information re boiler efficiency, wall insulation, air tightness etc is not available, so typically the value may actually be better than that given.

Whatever the merits, it is astounding that SEAI themselves should dismiss your concerns. I would be lodging a complaint regarding your interaction with them at a high-level.

FWIW you might get more informed replies over on the Construction & Planning forum.

D3PO

GemmaB wrote: »

Just because my accountant uses a calculator does not mean he's untrustworthy.

All machines are magic boxes. Many gadgets do things faster and more accurately than we can generally do manually.

What makes your BER assessor more trustworthy than the assessor that did this house in the first place .....

as for gadgets. They are only as good as the people that program them. As Ray says garbage in garbage out. Either way gadgets / machines are not used to get a BER assessment.

The data is put into an application the application generates the BER.

But since your back can you answer the question I asked posts and posts ago.

What exactly are you looking to achieve here ? Lets go with the idea you can get access to the property and get an alterantive BER generated (which you cant and wont be able to but lets just assume you can)

What exactly do you think that's going to achieve ? The property is clearly highly sought after as otherwise it wouldn't have multiple bidders and be 22k above asking. If you get that lower BER and try to use it to negotiate down on your asking price do you really think the sller will entertain you ?

They wont they will go to the next bidder and deal with them. There is absolutely no end game for you here so what exactly are you trying to do apart from be a nuisance ?

If you think its €300 well spend then go right ahead but really why waste your money and time ....

Ray Palmer

GemmaB wrote: »

Just because my accountant uses a calculator does not mean he's untrustworthy.

All machines are magic boxes. Many gadgets do things faster and more accurately than we can generally do manually.

Not saying he is untrustworthy for using a calculator just pointing out it is a tool and only as good as the user. If your account puts the wrong values into the calculator it isn't the calculators fault but the user. In this case the values put in by the assessor are subjective. Although I imagine they are gauges being used not calculators they are using

Machines aren't magic boxes they have definite cause and effect. Garbage in garbage out

D3PO

GemmaB wrote: »

I merely wanted to hear other people's thoughts on what to do about a suspicious BER. (The fact that everyone on here believes the BER to be a pile of pants is interesting but still does not answer the question I raised about what to do with a BER that we and another qualified assessor believe to be way off.)

You raised the issue to the SEAI they have responded to you .... so what suggestions do you want people to provide .....

http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/BER/Whistleblower_Policy/ the policy is clear you have raised it they said they would investigate. You already have your answer not that it was infact the question you really asked but anyway.

Lets be honest you didn't want other peoples thoughts on a suspicious BER. Your thread title is very clear your called the BER massaged so indicated it was fraudulent ....

GemmaB

D3PO wrote: »

What exactly are you looking to achieve here ? Lets go with the idea you can get access to the property and get an alterantive BER generated (which you cant and wont be able to but lets just assume you can)

What exactly do you think that's going to achieve ? The property is clearly highly sought after as otherwise it wouldn't have multiple bidders and be 22k above asking. If you get that lower BER and try to use it to negotiate down on your asking price do you really think the sller will entertain you ?

They wont they will go to the next bidder and deal with them. There is absolutely no end game for you here so what exactly are you trying to do apart from be a nuisance ?

If you think its €300 well spend then go right ahead but really why waste your money and time ....

I guess I believe that if someone is paid to do a job, they should do it correctly. As they are trained, most assessors would be able to guess the result pretty accurately before they even start. If the result seems strange to them, they should have the professionalism to redo it as they may have input the data incorrectly.

I believe, and this is only my opinion, that the assessment is incorrect. We have viewed countless houses over the last number of months and although I am not a qualified assessor, you get pretty good at knowing what to expect based on a combination of EA jargon, photoshopped pictures, google earth, the BER, etc. Any other houses with the same rating as this house that we have views have been insulated, have thermostats, etc … i.e. all the things I previously mentioned.

My end game as you put it would be to go ahead and purchase. As I have said this is not going to deter us. But say after we buy it we decide to spend 300 on a new assessment and it proves that it's an E. Surely the SEAI should audit other properties that this guy has done and have him struck off if he is dodgy. And they all have to have insurance apparently so that should cover the 300 IF we're right. We'll still have the house and it will make no difference to us, but at least other decent assessors will have one less cowboy to compete with … I suspect and I may be wrong that guy is a cheap and cheerful "I'll give you a good rating if you pay me cash" kinda guy. Or maybe we should all turn a blind eye to suspected criminal activity?

GemmaB

D3PO wrote: »

You raised the issue to the SEAI they have responded to you .... so what suggestions do you want people to provide .....

http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/BER/Whistleblower_Policy/ the policy is clear you have raised it they said they would investigate. You already have your answer not that it was infact the question you really asked but anyway.

Lets be honest you didn't want other peoples thoughts on a suspicious BER. Your thread title is very clear your called the BER massaged so indicated it was fraudulent ....

The SEAI have NOT responded. They said on the phone that the BER is irrelevant and then said to email the complaint (their words not mine which is why I put inverted comments around the word in my first post) to them and they would revert in a month. This was not an answer.

I wanted to know if there was a way of forcing the SEAI into actually doing something about it rather than sitting on their arses doing nothing..

Perhaps you misunderstood or I was being ambiguous. I believe that the BER rating is suspicious / massaged / fraudulent or whatever other terms I have used. I do not accept that I as a buyer should have to just accept this.

GemmaB

D3PO wrote: »

What makes your BER assessor more trustworthy than the assessor that did this house in the first place .....

He's a friend of mine and is 100% trustworthy.

D3PO

the responded to you on the phone. That is categorsised as an answer to me.

As for professionalism of an assessor and doing their job right as has been pointed out countless times. BER assessment is not a black and white thing its based on an individuals opinion of certain things and therefore there is no wrong and right as such.

If there was then the SEAI website would clearly have a list of things for every person to do / change to move their rating form E--> D --> C etc but they don't because they cannot say if you do x and y you will get this rating.

It is for this precise reason that the BER is a joke and a farce. You seem to have an opinion of the BER being something is is not its as useful as an inflatable dart board.

as for the SEAI sitting on their arses they said they would revert in a month that's not sitting on their arses, jut because you don't like the timeline doesn't mean they are sitting on their arses.

Its like the PRTB would we like them to do things quicker ? Hell yes we would but it is what it is and its not because they are sitting on their arses doing nothing.

D3PO

GemmaB wrote: »

He's a friend of mine and is 100% trustworthy.

that doesn't make the other assessor untrustworthy though.

kennyb3

ted1 wrote: »

GemmaB, my house has a low rating D or E. It's a 3 bed Semi. out electricity bill is about 130 every 2 month,

We didn't use the gas till late October, so only had standing charges for about 6 months. I reckon we spend 700-800 on gas a year.

so my total energy bill for the year is less than 1,600. An A rating BER will have no effect on our electricity bill.

I spent about €100 on LED's and CFLs. which paid for itself fairly fast.

If we were to spend money on insulation etc, new boiler etc, the payback period would be about 20+years. this si because it would only be applicable to the Gas bill

If the BER is concerning you, ask the current owners for a copy of there latest bills and see what they are.

I agree with you partially - while a lot of the money you spend on upgrades will take a significant period of time to repay themselves (and some won't at all) - there is a definite comfort factor in having a warm house. We rented an A rated house for a while and it was nice to wake up in the morning and not know if it was a cold day outside, to constantly be able to come home to a warm house, to wake up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom and the house to be warm. The big difference is heat retention - another house we rented was D rated and it lost the heat after 2/3 hours.

There is no need to spend a fortune to go to A or high B, but an efficient boiler, attic insulation, draft proofing can make a big difference for less than €5k and imho will repay itself in less than 10 years but also make for a much more comfortable house.

GemmaB

D3PO wrote: »

the responded to you on the phone. That is categorsised as an answer to me.

As for professionalism of an assessor and doing their job right as has been pointed out countless times. BER assessment is not a black and white thing its based on an individuals opinion of certain things and therefore there is no wrong and right as such.

It is for this precise reason that the BER is a joke and a farce. You seem to have an opinion of the BER being something is is not its as useful as an inflatable dart board.

as for the SEAI sitting on their arses they said they would revert in a month that's not sitting on their arses, jut because you don't like the timeline doesn't mean they are sitting on their arses.

Its like the PRTB would we like them to do things quicker ? Hell yes we would but it is what it is and its not because they are sitting on their arses doing nothing.

Having read other people's answers to this thread, I now understand that the BER is a farce and I have thanked people for their contribution. I apologise for my ignorance on this matter. I still think it's wring though … it's mandatory so it should be regulated.

In my business if I don't answer people within 24 hours, they go to a competitor. The SEAI does not have a competitor .. .this is why they can take 1 month to reply (not investigate) but to reply…

runawaybishop

GemmaB wrote: »

I guess I believe that if someone is paid to do a job, they should do it correctly. As they are trained, most assessors would be able to guess the result pretty accurately before they even start. If the result seems strange to them, they should have the professionalism to redo it as they may have input the data incorrectly.

I believe, and this is only my opinion, that the assessment is incorrect. We have viewed countless houses over the last number of months and although I am not a qualified assessor, you get pretty good at knowing what to expect based on a combination of EA jargon, photoshopped pictures, google earth, the BER, etc. Any other houses with the same rating as this house that we have views have been insulated, have thermostats, etc … i.e. all the things I previously mentioned.

My end game as you put it would be to go ahead and purchase. As I have said this is not going to deter us. But say after we buy it we decide to spend 300 on a new assessment and it proves that it's an E. Surely the SEAI should audit other properties that this guy has done and have him struck off if he is dodgy. And they all have to have insurance apparently so that should cover the 300 IF we're right. We'll still have the house and it will make no difference to us, but at least other decent assessors will have one less cowboy to compete with … I suspect and I may be wrong that guy is a cheap and cheerful "I'll give you a good rating if you pay me cash" kinda guy. Or maybe we should all turn a blind eye to suspected criminal activity?

You are not understanding the BER process. It is all done on paper with no site inspection. The assessor simply goes on the information provided. You won't get anyone struck off.

Stop putting so much emphasis on the BER - they are worthless. Forget about it and move on.

GemmaB

D3PO wrote: »

that doesn't make the other assessor untrustworthy though.

No it doesn't … the fact that he lied does though. Even something as simple as putting down 100% energy efficient lighting on the report when even from the EA photos it is clear that they are standard bulbs. If he lied about that what else has he lied about?

D3PO

GemmaB wrote: »

Having read other people's answers to this thread, I now understand that the BER is a farce and I have thanked people for their contribution. I apologise for my ignorance on this matter. I still think it's wring though … it's mandatory so it should be regulated.

In my business if I don't answer people within 24 hours, they go to a competitor. The SEAI does not have a competitor .. .this is why they can take 1 month to reply (not investigate) but to reply…

I agree with you the BER should be regulated it should be unambiguous. Right now its nothing more than a money making scheme for the government like many other things ...

The problem is your trying to compare a QUANGO with the real world. They are laws to themselves.

GemmaB

runawaybishop wrote: »

It is all done on paper with no site inspection. The assessor simply goes on the information provided. You won't get anyone struck off.

Stop putting so much emphasis on the BER - they are worthless. Forget about it and move on.

So why does the BER assessor come to the property then? Just to have a cuppa and a chat? They come and spend at least 30 mins inputting data into their machine, inspecting the boiler, attic, etc. Perhaps some do it without a site inspection but you are wrong if you believe that to be the norm.

I am not putting lots of emphasis on it .. I asked a question and people are answering. If you think that someone who is being fraudulent should be allowed to continue then that's grand so …

D3PO

GemmaB wrote: »

No it doesn't … the fact that he lied does though. Even something as simple as putting down 100% energy efficient lighting on the report when even from the EA photos it is clear that they are standard bulbs. If he lied about that what else has he lied about?

Like I said its as good as the information inputted. If he did the assessment without walking around and was given this information then that explains it.

Likewise could it be explained by somebody buying and inserting the bulbs only to remove them and put the old ones back in after the assessment.

I mean if I get my car NCT'd with new tyres get the car home and put the old bald tyres back on my NCT is still valid unfortunately although clearly theres a level of deception being employed there.

andy1249

If you think that someone who is being fraudulent should be allowed to continue then that's grand so …

You keep saying this , but you have no evidence that this is the case at all ! Just an opinion of a friend !

Ray Palmer

kennyb3 wrote: »

I agree with you partially - while a lot of the money you spend on upgrades will take a significant period of time to repay themselves (and some won't at all) - there is a definite comfort factor in having a warm house. We rented an A rated house for a while and it was nice to wake up in the morning and not know if it was a cold day outside, to constantly be able to come home to a warm house, to wake up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom and the house to be warm. The big difference is heat retention - another house we rented was D rated and it lost the heat after 2/3 hours.

There is no need to spend a fortune to go to A or high B, but an efficient boiler, attic insulation, draft proofing can make a big difference for less than €5k and imho will repay itself in less than 10 years but also make for a much more comfortable house.

I would really doubt you were actually in an A rated house. That is some serious piece of kit to get to that level from what I know. Very surprised it would then be rented out.

To go from A to B would also involve some expenditure.

Of course that is assuming the rating were done right which is unlikely anyway.

runawaybishop

GemmaB wrote: »

So why does the BER assessor come to the property then? Just to have a cuppa and a chat? They come and spend at least 30 mins inputting data into their machine, inspecting the boiler, attic, etc. Perhaps some do it without a site inspection but you are wrong if you believe that to be the norm.

I am not putting lots of emphasis on it .. I asked a question and people are answering. If you think that someone who is being fraudulent should be allowed to continue then that's grand so …

They can do the assessment off the plans though - every single new build is assessed from plans. Even if they go to the site their assessment is based off what they are told - i.e we totally have high grade insulation in the cavity walls and of course its 100mm of kingspan under the floor screed \:D/

Without seeing the information provided to him you cannot really comment on the rating.

L1011

Ray Palmer wrote: »

. Garbage in garbage out.

I was replying from further upthread and hadn't read the last page - slightly scary case of thinking alike there.