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Massaged BER rating. What to do?

GemmaB

Hopefully someone can help me. We are looking at buying a house and the BER is C2 but we believe it to be incorrect. This is important to us as it's the top of our budget and with 2 small kiddies we want a warm house. It is already 22k over the asking and it may be a factor in why it's so popular as it leads prospective buyers to think that there's not much work to be done on it. Having spoken to the assessor who did the BER in our own house, he feels that there is no way it could be more than an E. On his advice, we rang the SEAI who told us that the BER is irrelevant anyway?! He told me to email the "complaint' in to them and it would be looked at within approx. 1 month!! I asked what would happen if we brought in our own BER assessor and the original rating was proved to be incorrect and the answer was "well that would be €300 out of your pocket".

What's the point of having the BER as mandatory if the results can be messed with and there is no one held responsible?

We raised it as a concern with the EA but she was totally dismissive of the concern.

Just wondering what the best course of action is? Is there a way to force an audit on the original assessment? Could we ask our property surveyor to include another BER (covered by vendor) or should we just get him to raise it with the EA if we get to that stage? Whether it's an E or a C2, we still want the house and will just have to dig deeper for insulation work. What's bugging me is that it's possible that had the BER been correct from the start other interested parties may not have been interested (thus pushing up the price)…

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Bigcheeze

How does your BER assessor know it's an E without seeing it ?

Lots of cheap stuff can be done to improve the house without spending a lot of money. e.g. good attic insulation.

Reesy

Forget this house, be glad that you're spotted the problem - others haven't. Go find a house that meets your needs.

And yes, report your suspicions to the SEAI.

djimi

Did he say why he feels it can be no more than an E? From what I can gather of the BER system, even things like old lightbulbs can negatively affect ratings. You need to find out exactly what the issues are before deciding whether or not its a dealbreaker.

runawaybishop

Bigcheeze wrote: »

How does your BER assessor know it's an E without seeing it ?
.

The original BER was assessed without seeing it also.

OP: They really aren't worth the paper they are written on, get an independent survey, not a BER, done of the house.

GemmaB

Bigcheeze wrote: »

How does your BER assessor know it's an E without seeing it ?

That's a fair question and it is of course an estimate based on our observations of the property.

Our own house is a C3 and it was built in the same decade as the one we are looking at. Both are 3 bed semis. Ours is 90% internally insulated, has an A rated boiler, has thermostats, attic is fully insulated, 95% energy efficient lighting, double glazing & draught porch. This all cost us the guts of €10k to do which I don't think can be sniffed at!

The house we're looking at only has one room insulated (a new extension), is oil heating which is fine but has no thermostats, has normal bulbs (even though the report says it has 100% energy efficient lighting), doesn't have insulated attic. It is double glazed and has a porch but that's about it in terms of energy efficiency. Of course we can change the bulbs, etc but on principle it's a pile of you know what...

The assessor we used knows the houses in the estate we're looking at and going by what I told him feels that the BER can't possible be correct and has estimated an E.

runawaybishop

GemmaB wrote: »

That's a fair question and it is of course an estimate based on our observations of the property.

Our own house is a C3 and it was built in the same decade as the one we are looking at. Both are 3 bed semis. Ours is 90% internally insulated, has an A rated boiler, has thermostats, attic is fully insulated, 95% energy efficient lighting, double glazing & draught porch. This all cost us the guts of €10k to do which I don't think can be sniffed at!

The house we're looking at only has one room insulated (a new extension), is oil heating which is fine but has no thermostats, has normal bulbs (even though the report says it has 100% energy efficient lighting), doesn't have insulated attic. It is double glazed and has a porch but that's about it in terms of energy efficiency. Of course we can change the bulbs, etc but on principle it's a pile of you know what...

The assessor we used knows the houses in the estate we're looking at and going by what I told him feels that the BER can't possible be correct and has estimated an E.

BERs are done off plans and they do not account for quality of workmanship. is there no attic insulation at all, is that what you are saying?

GemmaB

Reesy wrote: »

Forget this house, be glad that you're spotted the problem - others haven't. Go find a house that meets your needs.

And yes, report your suspicions to the SEAI.

It meets every other need we have so it's not a deal breaker and we did tell the SEAI as per my original post and we were basically told where to go and fobbed off...

GemmaB

runawaybishop wrote: »

BERs are done off plans and they do not account for quality of workmanship. is there no attic insulation at all, is that what you are saying?

I have never known a BER to be done off the plans? Really? That's crazy!

There is the basic attic insulation as in a small layer of fiberglass but nothing extra if that makes sense?

L1011

BERs are done on guesswork and assumptions and suffer hugely depending on the laziness of the assessor. The sooner people realise they're utterly worthless the better.

runawaybishop

GemmaB wrote: »

I have never known a BER to be done off the plans? Really? That's crazy!

There is the basic attic insulation as in a small layer of fiberglass but nothing extra if that makes sense?

Crazy but very common sadly. They are next to useless to be honest, you absolutely cannot rely on them as an indicator of how your house will perform. You should get an in dependant assessment done but you should do this anyway, a house is a big purchase.

edit: also you know what it cost to bring you own place up to whats its at now - if this house is at the top of your budget you will need to be prepared to spend the same and thats without a real survey to see if there is anything additional needed.

GemmaB

Thanks everyone … we will of course get a property surveyor in when we get to sale agreed stage. I'm just peeved that this guy has been paid for what I believe is fraudulent work and I hoped there was something I can do about it.

Buying a house is awful … between this issue, estate agents failing to inform us of building that was done in spite of refused planning permission (whole other story), 8 months of looking, vendors taking their houses off the market after months of negotiation (another whole other story), prices going up and up (we're in South Dublin) … it's just a nightmare

If we could afford to rent, we would but our mortgage will be cheaper than the rent around where we want. Ridiculous stuff…

GemmaB

runawaybishop wrote: »

also you know what it cost to bring you own place up to whats its at now - if this house is at the top of your budget you will need to be prepared to spend the same and thats without a real survey to see if there is anything additional needed.

Appreciate the advice! We've kept 15k aside for cosmetic stuff but will use that for the important stuff first. I can live with swirly carpet for a few years but not cold walls!

D3PO

if you think the BER rating has pushed up the price by 22k your seriously delusional. I find it a bit dubious that you climbed into the attic and did enough things in a viewing to be able to question the BER rating especially when your not qualified to do so.

If you want to buy the house the simple fact is you need to pay more than somebody else is prepared to.

Even IF and its a big IF the BER has been assessed incorrectly do you think anybody is going to deal with you on a sale after you go off on a crusade against them ........

either increase your bid or walk away

GemmaB

D3PO wrote: »

if you think the BER rating has pushed up the price by 22k your seriously delusional. I find it a bit dubious that you climbed into the attic and did enough things in a viewing to be able to question the BER rating especially when your not qualified to do so.

If you want to buy the house the simple fact is you need to pay more than somebody else is prepared to.

Even IF and its a big IF the BER has been assessed incorrectly do you think anybody is going to deal with you on a sale after you go off on a crusade against them ........

either increase your bid or walk away

I may not be qualified but it's not exactly hard to walk up the attic ladder and feel a very thin layer of fibre glass in the roof. It also doesn't take a genius to see low energy bulbs. Nor is a degree required to find a thermostat!

I never said that the BER has pushed it up by 22k … what I said was that it may have been one of the factors though that enticed some people to bid which in turn inflates the price.

So even though I am 99% sure that the BER is wrong, you think I should just take it lying down. Oh Ireland … this is why we're so f'ed up…

D3PO

nobody increases their bid because of a BER rating at all. Lets not kid ourselves here.

as for taking it lying down im not saying that Im just not sure I understand your end game ? You get nothing out of it as the seller wont deal with you and it wont stop any other sale happening anyway.

but if you want to go off and chase this for frankly no reason then that's up to you.

Ray Palmer

BER really is useless but I am surprised the organisation in charge of it admitted it.

OP the rating is telling you next to nothing. In theory you don't need to go to the property gauge the rating if you have all the information. Doing it off the plans is not acceptable not because there is a hole in the wall but more to do with certain things stated in the plans not existing.

cerastes

GemmaB wrote: »

I may not be qualified but it's not exactly hard to walk up the attic ladder and feel a very thin layer of fibre glass in the roof. It also doesn't take a genius to see low energy bulbs. Nor is a degree required to find a thermostat!

I never said that the BER has pushed it up by 22k … what I said was that it may have been one of the factors though that enticed some people to bid which in turn inflates the price.

So even though I am 99% sure that the BER is wrong, you think I should just take it lying down. Oh Ireland … this is why we're so f'ed up…

If you are moving from somewhere that is better in terms of what you put into it, and you can see this isnt in the place you are viewing, then presumably you are moving for location, which can command a premium even if its not as well kitted out, its not easy to accept downgrading but depends on needs.
The things you mention above are relatively easy to fix, I would not put much weight behind the BER, bit of a con really. Most houses really dont have adequete insulation, I wouldnt even put much stock in your internal insulation.
If money wasn't an object, Id be going for external insulation, but only if an attached house was also doing the adjoining walls, otherwise it looks really out of place, plus heat loss at the corners of the insulation where it joins the neighbours would concern me.

Id be looking at the high value items to replace, like boilers (what age/condition/make) windows/doors (condition/age/quality/functional), signs of damage from damp due to damaged drainage from roof.

"Our own house is a C3 and it was built in the same decade as the one we are looking at. Both are 3 bed semis. Ours is 90% internally insulated, has an A rated boiler, has thermostats, attic is fully insulated, 95% energy efficient lighting, double glazing & draught porch. This all cost us the guts of €10k to do which I don't think can be sniffed at!"
If you got that all done for 10k, then maybe re-employ the people that did those jobs, but make your offer if you end up doing that based on what you think its worth, dont be encouraged to increase it, just tell EA to take it or leave it.

I agree about EA's as many Im sure will, I think offers should be a legal document here, that must be in writing legally required to be shown to seller and accepted, considered or declined and signed off by the seller, to prevent excessive ramping up of prices.

GemmaB

D3PO… We'll have to agree to disagree. The BER is a factor we have considered when deciding on whether to view a house or not. We feel that those with a high BER at the top end of our budget are worth viewing. Those with a low BER at the lower end of our budget are also worth viewing. Would we view & subsequently bid on a BER G house at the top of our budget? No as we couldn't afford to do the work to bring it up to scratch. I don't believe that we are the only people who think this way?

Lumen

Is this it?

http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/candos-584-south-circular-road-kilmainham-dublin-8/2655098

BER (pdf):

https://ndber.seai.ie/pass/Download/PassDownloadBER.ashx?type=nas&ber=105805345

GemmaB

cerastes wrote: »

I agree about EA's as many Im sure will, I think offers should be a legal document here, that must be in writing legally required to be shown to seller and accepted, considered or declined and signed off by the seller, to prevent excessive ramping up of prices.

That would indeed be great…

GemmaB

Lumen wrote: »

Is this it?

http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/candos-584-south-circular-road-kilmainham-dublin-8/2655098

BER (pdf):

https://ndber.seai.ie/pass/Download/PassDownloadBER.ashx?type=nas&ber=105805345

I wish our budget was 550k +:D

GemmaB

cerastes wrote: »

The things you mention above are relatively easy to fix

I agree … it was supposed to be tongue in cheek in response to another poster who seemed to think that I was lying about looking in the attic and that you need a degree in order to make an observation on attic insulation, lightbulbs, etc. His exact rather condescending words were "I find it a bit dubious that you climbed into the attic and did enough things in a viewing to be able to question the BER rating especially when your not qualified to do so."

cerastes

GemmaB wrote: »

I agree … it was supposed to be tongue in cheek in response to another poster who seemed to think that I was lying about looking in the attic and that you need a degree in order to make an observation on attic insulation, lightbulbs, etc. His exact rather condescending words were "I find it a bit dubious that you climbed into the attic and did enough things in a viewing to be able to question the BER rating especially when your not qualified to do so."

Having said that, I would prefer those things I said are relatively cheap to rectify were in place already as the costs add up just after buying anyway, and 300+ for attic insulation, maybe 700 for heating control+
More for a boiler, I was pointing out, that that would be likely easier and cheaper than say replacing/upgrading most all windows/doors.

I wouldnt even consider the bulbs, unless there were a load of halogens which could be replaced with led's anyway, as some of these costs pale in comparison to actually buying the house.

GemmaB

Yeah I know Cerastes and I appreciate your thoughts.

This thread was supposed to be about the incompetency of the SEAI and what I as a buyer could do about what I believe is a dodgy assessor (not the vendor or the estate agent). Anyone who commits fraud is a criminal in my book and this may not be up there with serious crime but it gives proper BER assessors a bad name and is the reason why the BER is a waste of time and money. We will still buy the house if we can … we are currently the top bidder after lengthily negotiations… we are aware that it will go to the top bidder and my question was not about whether we should buy it or how we could upgrade the efficiency.

My issue is that legally a BER is required but that there is zero regulation in the industry as the SEAI have no procedures in place to deal with buyers who query a cert. I guess the answer to my question is … nothing…

Dont be at yourself

If you really like the house, then bid as high as you are comfortable, based on it being a C3 BER. If your bid gets accepted, get it checked by a surveyer and get the BER re-assessed. If it's not as advertised (not only in terms of BER rating, but also in terms of insulation, heating, etc), then you can justify a reduction in your offer.

Ray Palmer

GemmaB wrote: »

My issue is that legally a BER is required but that there is zero regulation in the industry as the SEAI have no procedures in place to deal with buyers who query a cert. I guess the answer to my question is … nothing…

The assumption you are making is that the assessment is very scientific and therefore should be the same no matter who does the assessment. That isn't the case and a lot of the assessment criteria is a personal judgment.

So effectively the rating is a personal opinion therefore you can't really say one is correct and the other is incorrect. So how could you hold somebody responsible for that?

GemmaB

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

If you really like the house, then bid as high as you are comfortable, based on it being a C3 BER. If your bid gets accepted, get it checked by a surveyer and get the BER re-assessed. If it's not as advertised (not only in terms of BER rating, but also in terms of insulation, heating, etc), then you can justify a reduction in your offer.

I like your thinking but do you think that the EA would just give it to the next highest bidder?

GemmaB

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The assumption you are making is that the assessment is very scientific and therefore should be the same no matter who does the assessment. That isn't the case and a lot of the assessment criteria is a personal judgment.

So effectively the rating is a personal opinion therefore you can't really say one is correct and the other is incorrect. So how could you hold somebody responsible for that?

I thought they used a little machiney thing?!

Dont be at yourself

GemmaB wrote: »

I like your thinking but do you think that the EA would just give it to the next highest bidder?

If it's re-assessed at a lower BER, they'll have to make that known to the other bidders, though. That will at least eliminate your concerns that the massaged BER is driving up prices, and you can all bid on an even footing.

tvc15

GemmaB wrote: »

His exact rather condescending words were "I find it a bit dubious that you climbed into the attic and did enough things in a viewing to be able to question the BER rating especially when your not qualified to do so."

Don't take it to heart from that particular user, go on this board enough and its easy to see they don't think anyone knows enough to buy a house and all buyers are hysterical maniacs throwing their money away!