Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

SoulandForm hit the nail on the head there.

There is no rational reason to believe that God doesn't exist.

The issue really isn't around the evidence for God or the evidence that god doesn't exists.

If you come from and Atheist point of view, you will take a completely different interpretation to the evidence presented then a person that comes from a biblical point of view.

Just to clarify this point, an Atheist will always look at the facts and come to the conclusion that God does not exists. Likewise a Christian with a biblical point of view will look at the facts and think it's obvious that anyone can see that God does indeed exist.

So it actually depends on what your view of the world is to what you will ultimately believe.

What we really should be looking at is can we actually prove which world view is true.

I'm not talking about just atheism here, I'm also including any other world view such as evolution, other religions and faiths and so on.

if we look at atheism, using even the basic laws of logic then we can prove that atheism is actually an irrational view of the world and is even self defeating.

The biblical view of the world is the only one that can actually stand up to proper scientific scrutiny and logic.

georgesstreet

Terrlock wrote: »

The biblical view of the world is the only one that can actually stand up to proper scientific scrutiny and logic.

Ok, lets see you do that. How about we start at the beginning, Adam and Eve. Maybe you could begin by telling us all how the biblical story of Adam and Eve stands up to proper scientific scrutiny and logic.

pauldla

Terrlock wrote: »

........

Just to clarify this point, an Atheist will always look at the facts and come to the conclusion that God does not exists. Likewise a Christian with a biblical point of view will look at the facts and think it's obvious that anyone can see that God does indeed exist.
......

May I ask, what facts are you looking at that tell you God exists?

Terrlock wrote: »

.....
if we look at atheism, using even the basic laws of logic then we can prove that atheism is actually an irrational view of the world and is even self defeating.
.....

Then please demonstrate your critque of atheism using the basic laws of logis to show that it is "an irrational view of the world and self defeating".

Terrlock wrote: »

The biblical view of the world is the only one that can actually stand up to proper scientific scrutiny and logic.

Do you actually believe that certain men lived to over 900 years of age back then?

georgesstreet

Pherekydes wrote: »

Do you actually believe that certain men lived to over 900 years of age back then?

I am hoping we can explore the scientific scrutiny and logic of Adam and Eve, particularly the scientific scrutiny.

tommy2bad wrote: »

Well OK for you and me maybe because we see it that way but the same heavens and firmament showeth the wonder and complexity of physics too.

This is really worth a read; http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/aquinas3.asp

Completely irrefutable. Of course it doesnt proof Christianity-just the existence of God.

SoulandForm wrote: »

This is really worth a read; http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/aquinas3.asp

Completely irrefutable. Of course it doesnt proof Christianity-just the existence of God.

I think if Aquinas knew then what we know now, about life, the universe and everything, he might refute some of his own "proofs".

pauldla wrote: »

May I ask, what facts are you looking at that tell you God exists?

Before I talk about facts let me just explain what my view of the world is.

I basically have the view that the biblical account of creation is true.

so rather then actually try and prove any particular fact, which can never really be done when there are conflicting view points.

What I can do however is proof the my view of the world to be true.

Then please demonstrate your critique of atheism using the basic laws of logis to show that it is "an irrational view of the world and self defeating".

Very simply put the atheist world view most borrow from a creation world view to prove itself.

For example the concepts of morality, logic and science cannot be accounted for by an atheists world view point, yet most atheists would believe in them.

However a biblical world view not only accounts for all of them it even accounts for why an atheist can't account for them.

I'm getting away from what you asked me, please demonstrate my critique of atheism using the basic laws of logic.

I don't want any single post to get too big so I will do this in another post

Morbert

SoulandForm wrote: »

Completely irrefutable. Of course it doesnt proof Christianity-just the existence of God.

Those arguments are absolutely refutable. Time itself is a dynamical variable, with physical properties of its own. It is entirely plausible that matter, energy, space, and time, owe their existence to a timeless structure or facet of physics. Indeed, quantum physics deals with such structures all the time (E.g. Lebesgue space/Hilbert space).

It is, of course, legitimate to ask why such timeless physics exists, but that may be no more or less answerable than the question of why God exists.

georgesstreet

Terrlock wrote: »

Very simply put the atheist world view most borrow from a creation world view to prove itself.

For example the concepts of morality, logic and science cannot be accounted for by an atheists world view point, yet most atheists would believe in them.

However a biblical world view not only accounts for all of them it even accounts for why an atheist can't account for them.

I'm getting away from what you asked me, please demonstrate my critique of atheism using the basic laws of logic.

I don't want any single post to get too big so I will do this in another post

I cant help but notice you have avoided offering to tell us how the bible's Adam and Eve can be scientifically proven, as you earlier seemed to claim.

Why is that, I wonder?

georgesstreet wrote: »

I cant help but notice you have avoided offering to tell us how the bible's Adam and Eve can be scientifically proven, as you earlier seemed to claim.

Why is that, I wonder?

Because I don't have too.

All I need to do is prove that your world view is irrational and false and prove my world view to be true, which will not only scientifically prove that Adam and Eve is true but also prove everything else the bible says.

PopePalpatine

You're about to go full creationist. Never go full creationist.

MilanPan!c

Terrlock wrote: »

Because I don't have too.

All I need to do is prove that your world view is irrational and false and prove my world view to be true, which will not only scientifically prove that Adam and Eve is true but also prove everything else the bible says.

uhhhh.... no it won't.

Terrlock wrote: »

Because I don't have too.

All I need to do is prove that your world view is irrational and false and prove my world view to be true, which will not only scientifically prove that Adam and Eve is true but also prove everything else the bible says.

Frankly, that's a bizarre and disturbing line of logic you have there.

Can you answer this straightforward question I asked earlier:

Do you actually believe that certain men lived to over 900 years of age back then?

Pherekydes wrote: »

Frankly, that's a bizarre and disturbing line of logic you have there.

Can you answer this straightforward question I asked earlier:

Do you actually believe that certain men lived to over 900 years of age back then?

Yes of course I do.

I believe the biblical account, and that Methuselah was the oldest man of the Bible who lived past 900 years to 969 years

PopePalpatine wrote: »

You're about to go full creationist. Never go full creationist.

Why not? Either you believe the biblical account or you don't.

Delirium

Terrlock wrote: »

Because I don't have too.

All I need to do is prove that your world view is irrational and false and prove my world view to be true, which will not only scientifically prove that Adam and Eve is true but also prove everything else the bible says.

PersonA:"I believe a golden T-Rex created the world"

PersonB:"I believe it was a bronze eagle."

PersonA:"That's just crazy, there's no evidence of said eagle. I have now proven the golden T-Rex created the world"

wut???

Terrlock wrote: »

Yes of course I do.

I believe the biblical account, and that Methuselah was the oldest man of the Bible who lived past 900 years to 969 years

Yet you argue that the atheist worldview is irrational and false.

Fine, I think I'm done here.

Pherekydes wrote: »

Yet you argue that the atheist worldview is irrational and false.

Fine, I think I'm done here.

Correct, I will give you one example why the atheist world view is irrational and false.

It cannot account for the laws of logic.

I will give you another reason why the atheist world view is irrational

And this is more a general summation because really I can't define exactly what any one given atheist world view is since there are several different views within atheism.

I would say that most atheists would hold the view the evolution is true.

Evolution is also not able too account for the laws of logic and furthermore it can't account for the origin of information.

Virgil°

<SNIP: Personal>

Turtwig

Virgil° wrote: »

<SNIP>.

No more of these type of remarks!

Virgil°

Jernal wrote: »

No more of these type of remarks!

My apologies.

There doesnt seem to be much evidence at all for macro-evolution, and none in the case of humans- I dont believe that humans evolved from monkeys, I believe they fell from a Spiritual state and so had to put on "garments of animal skins" (the course matter of our fallen bodies).

That said there does seem to be some evidence of macro-evolution on the level of bacteria.

Terrlock wrote: »

I will give you another reason why the atheist world view is irrational

And this is more a general summation because really I can't define exactly what any one given atheist world view is since there are several different views within atheism.

I would say that most atheists would hold the view the evolution is true.

Evolution is also not able too account for the laws of logic and furthermore it can't account for the origin of information.

PopePalpatine wrote: »

You're about to go full creationist. Never go full creationist.

All Christians are full on Creationist-all Christians believe in an Uncreated Being responsible for all creation coming into being.

Terrlock wrote: »

Why not? Either you believe the biblical account or you don't.

I dont think its possible to accept the Genesis account and yet still believe in a very ancient earth and cosmos more generally; it isnt however possible to accept it and believe in that humanity evolved from monkeys or is very rather than relatively ancient.

Turtwig

Mod: There already is one big Whopper of a thread devoted to the creation/evolution discussion. Let's not have it here.

MrPudding

This appeared to have evolved (see what I did there) into the "big cup of crazy" mega-thread.

MrP

Virgil°

Terrlock wrote: »

Correct, I will give you one example why the atheist world view is irrational and false.

It cannot account for the laws of logic.

Logical laws are mathematical in basis. And humans made mathematics. Its an important area of science.

What i suspect you mean is the laws of the universe?