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Battlefield 4 Chat

cherryghost

So, general chat for next week lads? :P

PC preload kicks in on Sunday, beta goes live on Tuesday, confirmed the beta will be 64 bit only.

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rd1izb7lvpuksx

Dcully wrote: »

, i know only too well if a game has netcode issues or not and BF4 certainly has.

How could you possibly know that without the source, or some serious profiling? The issues could be anywhere in the stack. I think that you're proving Sparks point here.

The developers are saying that they'll address the netcode because that's what people are complaining about.

Dcully

Fiona White Sperm wrote: »

How could you possibly know that without the source, or some serious profiling? The issues could be anywhere in the stack. I think that you're proving Sparks point here.

The developers are saying that they'll address the netcode because that's what people are complaining about.

I know there is something wrong,are you saying there isnt?
I know things are fine my end so it has to be the game,simple concept really.
The stack you speak of is netcode,Netcode is in laymans terms how chunks of date are sent to and from the client and server.
That includes so many different paramaters as has been said but it all falls under the bracket of netcode so yes it could be anything within this "stack" or netcode.

Sparks seems to be the expert,im far from one id like to know if its not netcode then what is causing people to be shot round corners etc?
Genuine question.

I will say the sheer scale of BF and the many amazing things that happen that remind me of an action movie that happen all the time must be near to impossible to program and keep hit reg etc perfect,it must be nearly impossible.
Ive always had a hunch that the BF series will always be lacking compared to smaller scale games in this area,i guess its the price we pay for such scale and diversity all taking place with players from allover the world.

MajesticDonkey

Yes, the issues are NETCODE. The exact issues people are having are referred to as netcode issues. Netcode is simply the communication between server and clients, and how in or out of sync that communication is. In BF4's case, it is out of sync the majority of the time.

The fact that so many people are having these issues is generally enough to say that it's not on the users' end.

Some examples: http://bf4central.com/2013/11/new-videos-show-just-bad-battlefield-4-net-code/

I wouldn't be surprised if it's because of these issues that servers are crashing, e.g. a server waiting for data which the client hasn't sent yet, which causes a delay in sending back the response data to EVERY client, which results in more delays and eventually the server crashes. Just a theory.

TheFairy

Slide yer network optimizer to zero, some people lag then yes, but they are now where you see them in the game, hits now register the way they should.

Now shoot them in the face, end of really!!!

rd1izb7lvpuksx

Dcully wrote: »

I know there is something wrong,are you saying there isnt?
I know things are fine my end so it has to be the game,simple concept really.

I'm talking about the tachnology stack, not the network stack. The "netcode" is a lay term for the protocol stack responsible for network communications, but you can't possibly tell from "almost 15 years of multiplayer gaming,configuring servers" where in the application the issues are. There could be perfect "netcode", and another component of the application could be causing network IO to block. You can't know.

Again, you're just highlighting how correct Sparks is when he says that people are talking outside their area of understanding.

Dcully

Again, you're just highlighting how correct Sparks is when he says that people are talking outside their area of understanding.

Im sorry but that is utter BS and your just nitpicking.

There is an issue with how data is been sent to and from clients and servers in BF4, end of story.
Nobody needs a degree in anything to know if a game doesnt feel right.
15 years of MP gaming sure helps suss out if there is an issue, but doesnt help suss out what that issue is.

Are you saying there is no issue?

Sparks

Dcully wrote: »

There is an issue with how data is been sent to and from clients and servers in BF4, end of story.

Prove it.

Nobody needs a degree in anything to know if a game doesnt feel right.
15 years of MP gaming sure helps suss out if there is an issue, but doesnt help suss out what that issue is.

How about a degree in computer engineering and 15 years of writing network code for a living at pretty much every level of the stack from assembly to erlang? Would you think that might give someone insight into the problem?

The point I'm making is that yes, it might be something in their stack that's not tuned well enough yet, but there are so many other components in BF4, and they're all so interdependent, that you cannot just play the game, see one or two issues, and immediately diagnose it as a "netcode" issue. And you look silly to anyone who knows that field if you do so.

Are you saying there is no issue?

Nobody's saying that.

Mad_Dave

TheFairy wrote: »

Slide yer network optimizer to zero, some people lag then yes, but they are now where you see them in the game, hits now register the way they should.

Now shoot them in the face, end of really!!!

Spent some time looking into exactly what this does, can someone who knows answer me this - should your network smoothing factor be set to the same value (roughly) as your ping ?
If so, does anyone know how to get a numerical ping value on console ?

Dcully

Sparks wrote: »

Prove it.

How about a degree in computer engineering and 15 years of writing network code for a living at pretty much every level of the stack from assembly to erlang? Would you think that might give someone insight into the problem?

The point I'm making is that yes, it might be something in their stack that's not tuned well enough yet, but there are so many other components in BF4, and they're all so interdependent, that you cannot just play the game, see one or two issues, and immediately diagnose it as a "netcode" issue. And you look silly to anyone who knows that field if you do so.

Nobody's saying that.

So your telling me to prove there is an issue then telling me nobody is denying there is one :eek:

mozattack

Hey guys, in 17 days I will be able to try my first 64 man game... YES!

So to the PC guys here are all maps great on 64 player conquest on BF4. It seems to me that they are apart from O. Locker possibly?

What are the top three conquest large maps?

- Paracel?
- Zavod?
- Flood Zone?

MajesticDonkey

Sparks wrote: »

Prove it.

Now the developer has for the first time responded to the netcode situation, with DICE’s Gustav Halling saying that the “netcode issues I’ve seen in a few videos is a top priority”, and added that that they are working on it.

...

We’re not sure if the upcoming patch will include both netcode optimization and crash fixes. The netcode is notoriously difficult to change and fix, and it took several patches for BF3 before its issues were resolved. By comparison the netcode in Battlefield 4 is even worse, but at least it’s confirmed that DICE are aware of the issues and are working on it.

http://bf4central.com/2013/11/dice-battlefield-4-netcode-top-priority/

DICE have confirmed there are netcode issues. Is that not proof enough? I don't really care what degree you have or how much experience you have, if you can't tell the issues are specifically netcode-related from playing the game, then there's no point in arguing.

Sparks

Dcully wrote: »

So your telling me to prove there is an issue then telling me nobody is denying there is one :eek:

No, I'm saying prove that your diagnosis of what's causing the issue is correct.

I mean, can you even prove that there is just one issue and not several similar issues, or several dissimilar issues which are being seen simultaneously?

mozattack

Riddle me this, what is the difference between the muzzle brake and the compensator (apart from the name)???

Dcully

No, I'm saying prove that your diagnosis of what's causing the issue is correct.

Its simple, the game is nowhere near as sharp as every other MP fps ive played in terms of shots registering etc.
To me and any other gamer that translates to an issue between my rig [which is perfectly fine] and the server im playing on.
My understanding in laymans terms this is referred to as netcode.
DICE have said the netcode is their number one objective right now, what part of that dont you understand?
With respect if they say there is an issue with netcode ill accept that before some random guy online claming to be an expert [not saying you arent]
Maybe you should go and tell DICE they are wrong.

For God sake i can play Planetside2 with 5,000 people on a server with no issues whatsoever , go figure :rolleyes:

Grumpypants

Dcully wrote: »

I know there is something wrong,are you saying there isnt?
I know things are fine my end so it has to be the game,simple concept really.
The stack you speak of is netcode,Netcode is in laymans terms how chunks of date are sent to and from the client and server.
That includes so many different paramaters as has been said but it all falls under the bracket of netcode so yes it could be anything within this "stack" or netcode.

Sparks seems to be the expert,im far from one id like to know if its not netcode then what is causing people to be shot round corners etc?
Genuine question.

I will say the sheer scale of BF and the many amazing things that happen that remind me of an action movie that happen all the time must be near to impossible to program and keep hit reg etc perfect,it must be nearly impossible.
Ive always had a hunch that the BF series will always be lacking compared to smaller scale games in this area,i guess its the price we pay for such scale and diversity all taking place with players from allover the world.

Basically if you take my connection it is a terrible eircom line that can upload 0.2 bits a second but can't upload and download at the same time without having a heart attack.

Then you have someone who has a super fast crisp UPC fiber connection who can upload 50mb a second without any interruptions.

What we see has to travel down the line to the server most likely in London (which is kinda far away) and then back again. It is very likely that his will get there first.

The game has to balance that so that it is not unplayable.

It also has to compute what 62 other players all with different locations, (even different countries) different ISPs, PCs, routers, cabling, wi-fi etc are doing. Then it has to add in a bunch of vehicles driving around the place, every single bullet that is being fired in game is tracked, every building that can be destroyed, every bit of concrete or wood that can break.

It has to do this for people all around the world, thousands of KM apart in a fraction of a second. So if once in a while it takes 1/4 of a second to let me know what it has decided I'm ok with that. Even if I have taken a step around a corner.

Sparks

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

DICE have confirmed there are netcode issues.

Yeah, since that's one of their level designers (seriously, look up the guy's resume) not one of their coders, I'm still not going to go round saying it's all the netcode's fault

Haven't you ever worked for a software company? They tend not to let their engineers near the press for a good reason, they tend to tell you the answer to your questions while everyone else tells you what you want to hear. Tends to be bad for business

I don't really care what degree you have or how much experience you have, if you can't tell the issues are specifically netcode-related from playing the game, then there's no point in arguing.

There sure isn't if that's what you think!

Dcully

Grumpypants wrote: »

Basically if you take my connection it is a terrible eircom line that can upload 0.2 bits a second but can't upload and download at the same time without having a heart attack.

Then you have someone who has a super fast crisp UPC fiber connection who can upload 50mb a second without any interruptions.

What we see has to travel down the line to the server most likely in London (which is kinda far away) and then back again. It is very likely that his will get there first.

The game has to balance that so that it is not unplayable.

It also has to compute what 62 other players all with different locations, (even different countries) different ISPs, PCs, routers, cabling, wi-fi etc are doing. Then it has to add in a bunch of vehicles driving around the place, every single bullet that is being fired in game is tracked, every building that can be destroyed, every bit of concrete or wood that can break.

It has to do this for people all around the world, thousands of KM apart in a fraction of a second. So if once in a while it takes 1/4 of a second to let me know what it has decided I'm ok with that. Even if I have taken a step around a corner.

Agreed but Planetside 2 has to do it with 5,000 players

Sparks

mozattack wrote: »

Riddle me this, what is the difference between the muzzle brake and the compensator (apart from the name)???

The former reduces vertical recoil, the latter horizontal recoil.

rd1izb7lvpuksx

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

if you can't tell the issues are specifically netcode-related from playing the game, then there's no point in arguing.

To anyone who has written a networked application, if you think that you can possibly tell what part of the application is causing the issue from playing the game, you highlight your own misunderstanding.

Dice will say that they're fixinf the netcode because that's what's being complained about about. It doesn't mean that's the problem.

ShadowHearth

Sparks wrote: »

The former reduces vertical recoil, the latter horizontal recoil.

And both hit you in accuracy, so stuby grip or potato grip is the best option to compensate for that.

MajesticDonkey

Grumpypants wrote: »

It also has to compute what 62 other players all with different locations, (even different countries) different ISPs, PCs, routers, cabling, wi-fi etc are doing. Then it has to add in a bunch of vehicles driving around the place, every single bullet that is being fired in game is tracked, every building that can be destroyed, every bit of concrete or wood that can break.

It has to do this for people all around the world, thousands of KM apart in a fraction of a second. So if once in a while it takes 1/4 of a second to let me know what it has decided I'm ok with that. Even if I have taken a step around a corner.

Except....Battlefield 3 did all this rather well. Battlefield 4 is not doing it well. So what's the problem?

People's internet connections are most definitely NOT the problem. It is some type of code implementation issue, which is more than likely network related.

Sparks

ShadowHearth wrote: »

And both hit you in accuracy, so stuby grip or potato grip is the best option to compensate for that.

Great minds?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqiOGVpYPDE

Sparks

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Except....Battlefield 3 did all this rather well. Battlefield 4 is not doing it well. So what's the problem?

BF3 did not do all this well in the beginning, as I recall

People's internet connections are most definitely NOT the problem.

Prove that everyone's network connections (and their ISP's and their ISP's backbone links and every other link in that chain) are not the problem? That's not a trivial thing to do...

It is some type of code implementation issue, which is more than likely network related.

See, here's the thing - yes, it could well be that. But they've also changed out the game engine completely, reworked their gameplay and graphics and pretty much everything else; why would you just look at the network code without even thinking of all these other changes? Especially when noone outside of Dice has seen the code at all? And they probably haven't even seen all of it unless EA's got a deal with the Frostbite folks to give source code access to the Dice team...

MajesticDonkey

Sparks wrote: »

BF3 did not do all this well in the beginning, as I recall

Which is fair enough...but it did do it well after a few months. So why not use the same/similar implementation as BF3?

Sparks wrote: »

Prove that everyone's network connections (and their ISP's and their ISP's backbone links and every other link in that chain) are not the problem? That's not a trivial thing to do...

Look, obviously no one can prove anything regarding the code of the game. I am coming to the conclusion that it is not player's connections that are causing the network issues through common sense.

The issues happen too often.
As I said above, the issues did not happen in BF3 (that much).
They do not happen as much in other games (PS2, as mentioned).

Yes, there are players with bad connections, but not to the extent that people are seeing.

But they've also changed out the game engine completely, reworked their gameplay and graphics and pretty much everything else; why would you just look at the network code without even thinking of all these other changes?

Well, let's break this down. If they've changed the game engine completely from BF3, and the BF3 game engine worked generally well most of the time (regarding "netcode" or network-related code), and now the BF4 game engine does not work well (regarding "netcode" or network-related code), then can we not come to the conclusion that it is the game code that is wrong and not the clients?

You seem to be nitpicking here a small bit, if I'm honest.

mozattack

Sparks wrote: »

The former reduces vertical recoil, the latter horizontal recoil.

Thank you.

Dcully

mozattack wrote: »

Thank you.

Here you go mozattack.

http://bf4central.com/battlefield-4-attachments-and-accessories/

Sparks

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Which is fair enough...but it did do it well after a few months. So why not use the same/similar implementation as BF3?

Because they compeletely changed the engine, the gameplay, the squadding, the weapons, the graphics, the audio and more? I doubt they could have just cut-n-pasted very much between the BF3 and BF4 codebases, at least not the way you're talking about.

If they've changed the game engine completely from BF3, and the BF3 game engine worked generally well most of the time (regarding "netcode" or network-related code), and now the BF4 game engine does not work well (regarding "netcode" or network-related code), then can we not come to the conclusion that it is the game code that is wrong and not the clients?

See, you're glossing over the bit where you identify the problem as being in the network code in BF4 there as though that was an obvious, trivial point. It's not, is what I'm saying, and "but of course it is" doesn't count as a rebuttal argument

How do you know it's not some other part of the BF4 codebase that's not working right? How do you know that it's not the case that the network code is fine but some other component isn't feeding it data correctly or responding to data correctly?

You're talking about a non-deterministic distributed system as though debugging it was the trivial part, believe me, it is not!

You seem to be nitpicking here a small bit, if I'm honest.

In the same way that a doctor disagreeing with a patient that a small cough was obviously being caused by the lungs, yes

You know what would fix all of this?
If you just said "BF4's broken".

Seriously, that's it. That statement's perfectly accurate, it's perfectly correct, it's fine. What gets up my nose is when people who don't - and can't - have the data they need to identify the problem start talking about the cause of the problem as though it was as obvious as a hammer. And mainly it gets up my nose because they sound like every bad manager I've ever had when they do that and work has no place in BF4

MajesticDonkey

Sparks wrote: »

How do you know it's not some other part of the BF4 codebase that's not working right? How do you know that it's not the case that the network code is fine but some other component isn't feeding it data correctly or responding to data correctly?

Well fair enough then, I get what you're saying. But I still think all this crap about players' connections is nitpicking

BF4's broken :pac:

PS. I just realised your player name is Gun_ie - I believe I knifed you the other night

Sparks

That you did I think (had I just run out of ammo after another rush on locker as support?), but didn't I C4 you off one of the towers on Rogue Transmission after parachuting in from the gunship?

Grumpypants

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Well fair enough then, I get what you're saying. But I still think all this crap about players' connections is nitpicking

BF4's broken :pac:

PS. I just realised your player name is Gun_ie - I believe I knifed you the other night

Well that would be down to the bad netcode